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Suggestion for the next Open Propeller Project — Parallax Forums

Suggestion for the next Open Propeller Project

WBA ConsultingWBA Consulting Posts: 2,934
edited 2014-04-24 10:11 in Propeller 1
After seeing this thread posted, I was thinking that a STEM compliant Rocket Payload Control Board would be an excellent Open Propeller Project. Thoughts from anyone?

http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php/155368-Rocket-Payload-for-STEM

Comments

  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2014-04-23 15:46
    After seeing this thread posted, I was thinking that a STEM compliant Rocket Payload Control Board would be an excellent Open Propeller Project. Thoughts from anyone?

    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php/155368-Rocket-Payload-for-STEM

    That sounds like is along the line of a Hoverfy platform.

    Might just fit in nicely.
  • WBA ConsultingWBA Consulting Posts: 2,934
    edited 2014-04-23 17:24
    That's a good point. If the Hoverfly Open was sold as a standalone item, it would be easy to create custom firmware to have it operate as needed for rocket projects. It is still missing some main items form the original request (temp, humidity, pressure, etc) but an expansion board could be easily created. Since I haven't seen much as far as availability of the Hoverfly Open board, I don't know if that has potential as a solution though.

    My thoughts were:
    • Standard Propeller setup in ~3"x4" formfactor
    • USB
    • Dual 64k EEPROMs
    • micro SD socket
    • ADC
    • 3 axis gyro/accel
    • temperature
    • humidity?
    • pressure
    • expansion port
    Not sure what else is typical for rocket telemetry.
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2014-04-23 20:08
    Are you asking about this project in particular or are you asking if we have ideas for additional OPPs?

    I'm not sure how closely the sensor needs of a quadcopter and the sensor needs of a rocket align.

    I also wonder about a uSD socket in a rocket. I'd be concerned about vibrations causing intermittent breaks with the contacts on the card and the brushes/fingers in the socket. I'd think some sort of flash chip would be safer.

    I do think a rocket data logger would be fun.
  • WBA ConsultingWBA Consulting Posts: 2,934
    edited 2014-04-24 00:21
    A little of both I guess. I see the request for a Rocketry Telemetry board as an opportunity to show off the Propeller I guess as well as fill a need for some projects directly related to STEM curriculum.

    I agree that there is a difference between quadcopter and rocketry needs, but what could be made for rocketry could work for many other things. Essentially, it would be a versatile datalogger.

    The uSD could be used in the rocket with appropriate risk mitigation, but my intent was more for offloading logged data with having to connect a PC to the board directly. Also, for other datalogging applications, the uSD may not have any vibration issues.

    I think it could be fun as well, especially for the Propeller. You could even go as far as plugging in a composite video display to your rocket and have the Propeller generate various graphs/displays from the results of your launch. How cool would that be!?!
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2014-04-24 07:10
    A little of both I guess.

    Good, because I have an idea I think would be useful in a lot of RC type projects. It's kind of along the lines of Ken's desire to have the Propeller take the place of an ESC programming card. I'm thinking I should probably start a different thread about the idea and add a link to it from this thread.
    I see the request for a Rocketry Telemetry board as an opportunity to show off the Propeller I guess as well as fill a need for some projects directly related to STEM curriculum.

    I agree. I attended a science teacher convention about 20 years ago and rocketry was a popular topic at the convention. I think of the tools we have now and how much more interesting a rocket launch could be if there were a lot of data that could be collected and analyzed.
    I agree that there is a difference between quadcopter and rocketry needs, but what could be made for rocketry could work for many other things. Essentially, it would be a versatile datalogger.

    I've often wished I has a datalogger like this.
    The uSD could be used in the rocket with appropriate risk mitigation, but my intent was more for offloading logged data with having to connect a PC to the board directly. Also, for other datalogging applications, the uSD may not have any vibration issues.

    I think it could be fun as well, especially for the Propeller.

    I'm not sure if vibrations would cause a problem for a uSD card, I've just seen a lot of videos of things in rockets getting ripped apart/open from the extreme acceleration the rockets experience. I think adding additional memory of some soft as a backup to the uSD card might be needed but I'm not sure. I wonder if some uSD sockets would be better suited for this task than others?

    I suppose a bit of experimentation is in order.
    You could even go as far as plugging in a composite video display to your rocket and have the Propeller generate various graphs/displays from the results of your launch. How cool would that be!?!

    IMO, very!

    It's been years since I've set off a rocket. I know I have several and I also have some (pretty old) rocket motors. This has sure got me thinking of dusting off some of my rockets.

    I noticed the datalogger in the other thread looks very large and must have been used in a very large rocket. I'm thinking a datalogger would get more use if it could fit in "normal" sized rockets. I'll measure one I have in mind. I have a two stage rocket with a clear payload section. The payload section is 24mm ID. I think a datalogger that was able to fit in a 24mm ID tube could be used by a lot of schools and organizations.

    Did you have a size in mind?

    Yes, this could be a lot of fun.

    Edit: I see from an earlier post you're thinking of a 3" x 4" size. I'm inclined to think a long thin board would see more use. Maybe 24mm x 72mm? Some of the sensors may need to be external to the board with very secure wiring.
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2014-04-24 07:30
    How about a long board (24mmx??mm) with pins (locking connectors?) bringing out an i2c bus on one end and then pins (locking connectors?) bringing out an SPI bus on the other end. Then make 24mm x ??mm add on cards for each of the sensors - the bus passes through the card so you can chain them together.
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2014-04-24 07:46
    mindrobots wrote: »
    How about a long board (24mmx??mm) with pins (locking connectors?) bringing out an i2c bus on one end and then pins (locking connectors?) bringing out an SPI bus on the other end. Then make 24mm x ??mm add on cards for each of the sensors - the bus passes through the card so you can chain them together.

    Yes, I like this idea. We will probably need to do some thinking about how to use SPI like this. Each SPI device needs its own chip select line.

    I do wonder if we want to take advantage of some of the very inexpensive sensors available from ebay and have a way to securely connect these small cards to the main board.
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2014-04-24 07:50
    I was thinking the Grove Sensors but they connect by wires, not easily daisy chained plugs.

    Using those, you're back to a motherboard type thing with a set of connectors to plug each sensor into (not bad but not as cool)
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2014-04-24 07:59
    Those Grove sensors are pretty cool.

    I know some SPI devices can be daisy chained but I think they all have to be the same type of device in order to daisy chain them.

    I know the AS5055 magnetic encoders I've experimented with can be daisy chained but I don't think they could be daisy chained with other SPI devices.

    One problem with daisy chaining items is the need for two connectors instead of one. Connectors take up a lot of space on a PCB and they cost a bit of money.

    I think figuring out how to connect external sensors could be a big challenge especially since different sensors require different numbers of pins and supply voltages.
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2014-04-24 08:16
    The flexibility of interchangeable sensors would be nice but like you say, it could be difficult - maybe a system that lets you build hard wired "mission packs". Expose I/O pins and power and hard attach to those.

    Do they make smaller gauge bullet type connectors? Those might give some flexibility for reconfiguring.
  • WBA ConsultingWBA Consulting Posts: 2,934
    edited 2014-04-24 10:11
    The long thin board and daisy-chain concept is intriguing. This is very common for addressable RGB LED commercial installations. Various types of right able connectors are used on each end to mate to additional boards. There are several customized style connectors that are used actually. Attached is a picture of heavy duty version used for the video facade wall at the Armani store in New York that I did through work a number of years ago. Wires were punched into surface mount IDC terminals in between the PCBs and the end junctions were made using large pluggable terminal blocks. The 4 interconnects were 24V, GND, and standard RS485. A similar assembly omitted the IDC terminals and the wires were soldered directly to the PCBs for daisy-chaining.

    That same setup would work for rocketry and be very durable. There are other methods as well that could use the same footprint on the PCB. From a PCB size standpoint, I guess I would say whatever is the widest you can have that would still provide the largest customer base (AKA variety of rocket diameters that could use it) It would be rather easy to put a large amount of versatility into a 24mmx100mm PCBA.

    For interconnects, go with a standard set of connectors on each end but also add some accessibility to additional IO as mentioned. Since the board would more than likely be doublesided SMT, you can have connectors on both sides for each end. A 5 or 6 pin connector on top and bottom at each end? Keep parts on one side of the board to a very low height and that side could be used to stack add-on boards using the expansion IO holes.

    In searching for an example "narrow" PCB picture, I came across this one that runs $321 at Apogee Rockets but does require a HAM license for use in the US:
    TeleMetrum (open source)
    This is a recording dual-deploy altimeter for high power model rocketry with integrated GPS and telemetry link.
    telemetryPCB.jpg
    433 x 1240 - 194K
    1024 x 401 - 161K
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