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Differential versions for WAITPX, WAITPR and WAITPF — Parallax Forums

Differential versions for WAITPX, WAITPR and WAITPF

RamonRamon Posts: 484
edited 2014-04-18 22:02 in Propeller 2
Chip,

The new IC pinout distribution is very smart and efficient. Did you inserted power pins every two pins just only for even thermal dissipation? or did you do that also because you were thinking to add differential signals in the future?

I think that this configuration with pins grouped in pairs and around a Vdd pin is great for differential signaling. The instruccions needed will look somewhat like this:
WAITPPX = Wait for Pin Pair change
WAITPPR = Wait for main Pin in Pair to Rise  (*)
WAITPPF = Wait for main Pin in Pair to Fall    (*)
WAITPP0 = Wait for both Pins in Pair to be 0 
WAITPP1 = Wait for both Pins in Pair to be 1

(*) main pin in pair is always the lowest numbered pin. E.g. For (P0, P1), pair P0 is main pin

But I don't know if this is possible because there are only 2 instruction opcodes left:
--L-		1111111 00 L CCCC DDDDDDDDD xxxx00000		WAIT	D/#			(wait for some number of clocks, 0 same as 1)
--L-		1111111 00 L CCCC DDDDDDDDD xxxx00001		WAITPX	D/#			(wait for any edge on pin D/#)
--L-		1111111 00 L CCCC DDDDDDDDD xxxx00010		WAITPR	D/#			(wait for pos edge on pin D/#)
--L-		1111111 00 L CCCC DDDDDDDDD xxxx00011		WAITPF	D/#			(wait for neg edge on pin D/#)
--L-		1111111 00 L CCCC DDDDDDDDD xxxx00100		PUSH	D/#			(push D/# into 4-level stack)
--L-		1111111 00 L CCCC DDDDDDDDD xxxx00101		SETVID	D/#			(set video mode)
[b]--L-		1111111 00 L CCCC DDDDDDDDD xxxx00110		-	D/#
--L-		1111111 00 L CCCC DDDDDDDDD xxxx00111		-	D/#
[/b]

Also because there is a Vdd pin every two pins, I wonder if the pin pair can be configured with other voltage different from 3.3V. Maybe this would allow LVDS with 2.5V. Or any other voltage or mode. But even if this is not possible, I think that the differential instructions are useful.

Comments

  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2014-04-17 23:59
    I think this is likely to be managed in the pin-config, as they have fast comparators in the Pin Blocks. (not sure if Rail-Rail CMR ?)
    - so that means no changes to existing opcodes are needed
  • RamonRamon Posts: 484
    edited 2014-04-18 00:14
    There is a need for WAITPP0 and WAITPP1, the example is USB. USB has SE0 signal (single-ended 0) to signal End Of Packet. It is not a pure differential protocol.

    The 5 instructions that I posted above cover all cases. So at least there is a need for two new opcodes. If single-ended an differential can be handled with the same opcode then there is a way to fit all 5 instructions in the current instruction set.
  • evanhevanh Posts: 15,915
    edited 2014-04-18 02:45
    VIO can go down to VDD if I'm not mistaken. So, that's a normal range of 1.8 - 3.3 volts for VIO.

    The pinout is for low noise in general rather than for differential signalling specifically. All I/O pins are analogue capable after all.

    EDIT: I think I read somewhere they are grouped as 4 I/O pins per VIO pin. That may mean that each VIO can be it's own supply voltage in the 1.8 - 3.3 volt range, ie: The VIOs possibly aren't bonded together internally.
    124K
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2014-04-18 06:38
    I'd rather have fewer Vio/Vdd pins and get 80 I/O's... the X chip gets by with roughly half the Vio/Vdd pins at 400 & 500MHz.
  • TubularTubular Posts: 4,702
    edited 2014-04-18 06:55
    evanh wrote: »
    EDIT: I think I read somewhere they are grouped as 4 I/O pins per VIO pin. That may mean that each VIO can be it's own supply voltage in the 1.8 - 3.3 volt range, ie: The VIOs possibly aren't bonded together internally.

    That's my recollection too. They were in groups of 8, now looks like groups of 4.

    From an Analog performance point of view, I'm not sure whether we'll be better served by having a single big ground pad carrying all digital+analog currents, vs having vio grounds per set of 8 gpio. It'll be very low impedance, so probably...
  • RamonRamon Posts: 484
    edited 2014-04-18 07:50
    Thanks evanh and Tubular. Sorry my mistake, there are 4 pins per VIO. I cannot find any post from chip saying that those vio are independent from each other.

    (Bill, the x chips are using 65nm and 90nm. We cannot expect such miracle from 180nm.)
  • dnalordnalor Posts: 222
    edited 2014-04-18 09:12
    Vio is the reference for the ADCs because there is no special Vref, right? So it should be easier to have a stable reference, if there are less pins per Vio.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2014-04-18 13:09
    Ramon wrote: »
    There is a need for WAITPP0 and WAITPP1, the example is USB. USB has SE0 signal (single-ended 0) to signal End Of Packet. It is not a pure differential protocol.

    The 5 instructions that I posted above cover all cases. So at least there is a need for two new opcodes. If single-ended an differential can be handled with the same opcode then there is a way to fit all 5 instructions in the current instruction set.

    Cluso99 did request a USB helper Opcode, IIRC that used Z and C to get results of (M XOR P) and ( !M & !P)

    With the new PinOpcodes, the pin-logic can do whatever simple pair-logic mapping was needed, to two pin outputs.
    (ie one becomes SE0 and one is the data, or, one is NotDifferential and the other is LogicValue).

    Cluso99 would probably need to revisit his USB code, to comment on what the issues are on this variant.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2014-04-18 18:57
    I worked out what would help the most for USB. I am quite happy with the results that this will give.

    One of the problems with using WAITPP0/1 for differential is that the switching of the differential pins may not be quite symmetric (for a number of reasons). So a wait of this kind could give a false result due to transition errors. The idea with my USB is that I would be sampling close to the centre of the bit cycle and this would give a proper result. Otherewise, you need to re-verify the reading which takes valuable time.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2014-04-18 20:04
    Cluso99 wrote: »
    I worked out what would help the most for USB. I am quite happy with the results that this will give.

    One of the problems with using WAITPP0/1 for differential is that the switching of the differential pins may not be quite symmetric (for a number of reasons). So a wait of this kind could give a false result due to transition errors. The idea with my USB is that I would be sampling close to the centre of the bit cycle and this would give a proper result. Otherewise, you need to re-verify the reading which takes valuable time.

    but the first edge detect will always be non-centre - once you have that reference, others can be better centred - but the ideal is to check sync so it does not creep on Data.

    If the Pin Cell can take two pins, and give
    * NotDifferential
    * LogicValue
    On two Read paths, and maybe
    * LogicOut
    * Tristate enable
    on two OUT paths for Send

    What else do you need ?
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2014-04-18 22:02
    The web gives this for USB
    Clock tolerance is 480.00 Mbit/s ±500 ppm, 12.000 Mbit/s ±2500 ppm, 1.50 Mbit/s ±15000 ppm

    - and I think my PC here is ~ 200ppm high @ 12Mb, so that 2500 is not typical, but it is the spec limit
    At that spec limit, it takes just 200 bit times to creep Half a bit off, at 12Mb, and just 33.3 bit times at 1.5Mb

    Taking a measured typical of 250ppm is 2000 bit times, still well under a USB frame.

    A USB frame at 12MHz is able to resolve to 83ppm, and @ 48MHz is 21ppm

    Perhaps a P1+ can run a Frame based NCO digital Lock loop ?
    ( Other chips self-calibrate off the USB data fields.)

    There, it could be better supported if the COG Counters were accessible to WAITP_ opcodes - ie map to virtual pins.
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