Google and Facebook
W9GFO
Posts: 4,010
I started this reply in Ken's thread where the use of Google's Blocky was suggested by Roy but then thought that it really didn't belong there.
I don't know anything about Blocky but don't you think Google is getting a bit too pervasive in our lives? Over the past few years I have noticed this great desire to make use of all these Google products but the results are disappointing. I'm referring to our robotics club. The kids think it is great that there is all these free services but it makes me uneasy to depend upon a third party for everything. We have not seen better collaboration as a result, the opposite in fact. There seems to be little perceived value in self sufficiency anymore. We had something that worked and it worked really well. Now what we have is a mess.
Over the last three years Facebook and Google product usage has increased, our forum has been abandoned (archives discarded!) and communication amongst the club members is abysmal. This is not all to be blamed on Facebook and Google but they have been part of the problem and not part of the solution.
I don't know anything about Blocky but don't you think Google is getting a bit too pervasive in our lives? Over the past few years I have noticed this great desire to make use of all these Google products but the results are disappointing. I'm referring to our robotics club. The kids think it is great that there is all these free services but it makes me uneasy to depend upon a third party for everything. We have not seen better collaboration as a result, the opposite in fact. There seems to be little perceived value in self sufficiency anymore. We had something that worked and it worked really well. Now what we have is a mess.
Over the last three years Facebook and Google product usage has increased, our forum has been abandoned (archives discarded!) and communication amongst the club members is abysmal. This is not all to be blamed on Facebook and Google but they have been part of the problem and not part of the solution.
Comments
What surprises me the most about Facebook are two things in particular. First, I'm amazed at how people hand over their pictures and information to these systems. Next, studies show that people leave a Facebook session feeling worse than when they started it. I believe there will be a "wake up" among all social media users in which the trend turns back towards keeping personal information to one's self, and not sharing with these big companies.
For three decades nobody ever questioned it it.
Now that it might be Google the questions get asked.
That is progress.
The irony is that all the good stuff I use from Google is free and open source. Think Android or the work they do on the Clang compiler, Or the V8 Javascript engine as used in node.js.Or Blockly.
How come when stuff is open source and free for use it is suddenly suspicious? When it was closed and expensive that was OK and nobody questioned it?
Heck. universities gave up using Lisp and Scheme for introductory computer science courses in favor of Java even though it is an inferior language for the task.
What is wrong with educators? We have had personal computers for decades now. They should have grown up with them like Chip and all Parallax forumistas. And millions of nerds everywhere. Where have they been? How come they don't know a crock when they see it?
All of this is why I was anti the "program a Propeller from an iPad" idea. It's just pandering to the latest "big-company" solution.
The cloud is far more secure than most of the LANs I have encountered in my days. People who say the cloud is a bad idea aren't aware of how badly configured some local networks are.
Blocky enables people to code who otherwise may not be able to. I wrote an iOS app in x-code and love it! I can't wait to get my stupid approval from Apple. I wouldn't have time to be creative if my head was buried in programming, at least that is my excuse for now.
You're fond of saying this, but it doesn't at all jive with reality. Did you forget the several FTC probes, lawsuits from the federal government, civil class action suits, complaints by state attorneys general, outright boycotts, and literally thousands of articles, columns, and essays over Microsoft's monopoly? I think you have forgotten, or you wouldn't say "nobody ever questioned it." I once wrote a newspaper column citing Microsoft's laziness in their Web design -- this was circa 1999 or so -- in what I claimed was a "so what? we're Microsoft!!" attitude. For several weeks I was threatened by one of their contract workers.
Hegemony is never a good thing. It was true with Microsoft, it's true for Google. Google only gives away things to build market share. As Ken notes, today it's what you have to do to build your business. Facebook is "free," but don't confuse what they do with freedom. If you don't like their policies, your page is still there on MySpace. Tom wants you back.
I question whether many of Google's open source offerings are all that good. They free, so we settle for all the warts. When I did the first round of KickStarts for Parallax we hosted it on Google Sites because it was free and a quick way to get stuff out there. But the platform proved painfully limited, and crude. Parallax has since gone to their own CMS (itself based on open source but what appears to be considerably customized), and it's 1000% better.
Over the years Google has started and quit a number of services people grew dependent on -- the lesson is you have to be careful anchoring your boat in their harbor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Google_products#Discontinued_products_and_services
That is not really my point. Open source doesn't mean much to me, I can't do anything with it and neither can the overwhelming majority of it's users. My gripe is with the desire to use (trust) third parties for more and more, when there is no real need for it. They gladly hand the reigns over to someone else with no assurance that the data (such as our lost forum archives) will be protected. The terms of service change frequently, that alone is enough to turn me away. Now there is cloud computing that everyone seems so excited about, which is completely useless when your connection goes down - one more layer of dependency.
Yeah, I understand your position. But we don't have the luxury of writing off a customer request using the reasons you provided. To put it a little more succinctly and to the point, all of you want Propeller 2s, right? That revenue has to come from somewhere, and projects like this one are significant generators for us [and you, as a beneficiary and contributor to our R&D]. Part of our company must freely innovate without restrictions, but that means the rest has an obligation to balance it out in the meantime.
Heater, I bet you can help us with the Scratch project. . .what are the Finnish kids using in their schools? You'd be a star contributor on that project. BTW, now that I might have your attention, you were nominated to our "Star Contributors" page and I'm still waiting for a bio and picture.
Ken Gracey
Isn't that a straw man argument? My computer is completely useless without electricity, so I should use paper instead? Not to mention that my internet has never gone out in the last 6 years. Well, at least when I still had electricity.
I don't think it is a straw man argument. It is about being dependent upon a service, when you don't need to be. When the power goes out I can use batteries or a generator. When the internet is down, well, it is down. Unless I have a backup internet plan (another service) then I am out of luck. The fact that your internet is good does not mean that mine is. It used to be that you could run software without an internet connection. Nowadays that is changing. Not because it needs to, but because it will be more profitable and many are convinced that it is the way of the future. I don't like that the "way of the future" is to become increasingly dependent upon third parties.
Our new place is pretty self sufficient. We have our own water, septic, gas (propane) and a generator that can run the whole house when the power goes out - which is not infrequent. Our internet service there is not nearly what it is here in Bellevue.
On the one hand Google offers free service from search through gmail to, well everything else. Those are all clearly intended to be money makers. Using all the data they can extract from us, the users, for profit.
On the other hand what I have had in mind in this thread is all the stuff that comes out of Google as a side effect of that business and is actually free, no strings attached and high quality. For example the Clang C++ compiler, the V8 Javascript engine, the Go language, contributions to the Linux kernel, the Angular JavaScript library and a ton of other stuff.
Whilst I avoid all Google service like the plague, apart from search, I'm quite happy to make use of all those free and opensource software contributions from Google.
Oddly it seems a lot of that open source work that Google engineers are doing is hosted on Github!
Facebook is something I would never consider using.
@W9GFO, I think you will find open source has a bigger impact on your life than you realize. Now in Parallaxia we have opensource compilers for Spin and C/C++ that makes it possible for you to develop for the Propeller on a Mac or Linux machine. Or even within a web browser. Current discussions are about providing Scratch or similar language support for the Prop. Then there are the cross platform IDE's for the Propeller. All of these rely on a huge base of open source software.
Don't forget the open source in OBEX by the way. And that browser I hope you are using to post here:) I agree. There is something very compelling about using "cloud" services. Having your stuff available from any device anywhere in the world is great. Being able to instantly share that work and collaborate with others is great. Who want's to be worrying about installing software, maintaining an OS, keeping backups etc etc etc. In the cloud it's just there.
On the other hand, I don't want my stuff to be locked up in a cloud service. I don't want to become dependent on that one supplier of whatever service it is I'm using. I certainly don't want piles of my personal and private information in the hands of people I don't know or trust. Oh yes. It's gotten to the point that if the internet fails I'm dead in the water anyway. As is pretty much everyone else. I can't work without the infinite supply of documentation and answers to questions available on the net. I can't work without connection to others around the world. And so on. God forbid I should be cut off from my only "social network", the Parallax forums
Perhaps I have foolishly become to depend on that network connection too much. That's probably because I don't recall a significant outage since I hopped on the net back in 1996 or so.
I do agree about not wanting to be dependent on third parties.
It's not that it's the way of the future. It is the way of the present. That networking enables sharing and collaboration around the world. My company could not exist without it, we have engineers and designers in four different countries. That is true of a lot of business now. We are only a very small example.
What to do about that dependency?
As an example: All our code goes into github. What if github disappears? No worries, those git repositories are distributed to many other places. It would be inconvenient but we could just switch to using our own servers to host stuff if need be.
It's great to have a github or drop box or whatever but be sure you can migrate elsewhere if need be.
Surprisingly even Microsoft seems to see this point now. They offer the Azure cloud services. They also make the entire Azure software stack opensource so that you need not depend on MS to host it. Weird.
Of course there are strings attached! Chrome is Google's method of creating their own Internet hegemony, directly by lessening the user base of IE and Firefox. The more Chrome users they have, the more they "own" the Internet. They tore out a page from Microsoft's own playbook and are now doing the exact same thing. Different players, but same concept. V8 is already in Chrome, and what better way to promote Chrome dependence than to also open up its JavaScript engine for use on other platforms and devices. Backdoor legitimacy, just like Microsoft did.
I'm not going to stop using Chrome because I am aware of Google's tactics. But aren't you doing exactly what you claim others have done with Microsoft? Google isn't doing this to be good Netizens. They make billions while frequently operating in the shadows (what are those buildings and barges for, exactly?), conducting themselves in less-than-moral ways (tapping into people's WiFi as they do street views), manipulating search algorithms to favor their own business models and properties (Panda and Penguin updates), and so on.
Use their free products, sure. Just don't for a minute think there are no strings attached.
The sands of dependency are always shifting; that's just part of life. The only other alternative is to become totally self-sufficient, but that limtis one's options severely due to lack of time. As I get older I've come to appreciate the benefits of specialization. I don't change my own oil anymore, and when my main drain line gets clogged I call Roto-Rooter. But upon that awful day when my Mercedes mechanic retires, I'll probably have to get a different kind of car. The price of dependency is accommodating change. You just have to weigh that against the opportunity cost of going it alone.
-Phil
I recently purchased an Xbox One game. This game is 100% useless without a live internet connection. No single player campaign, no custom games - nothing. I can forget about playing that in the RV while camping. Part of the reason claimed for that is that it uses cloud computing for the AI - but the AI does not seem as good as other games which do not use cloud computing. I am sure that more and more games will follow suit.
The other example which does not affect me yet, I will be spending quite a bit of time in my RV in the future, away from reliable internet. When I am not otherwise occupied I will use the time to get some work done. I don't currently use any program that requires a live internet connection but if I did, that would not work out too well for me.
Another, our new house, in a rural area, does not have great internet. A couple people watching Netflix and it has problems. We are not too far from civilization so I hope that situation improves soon. Offloading processing power to the cloud may be great for those in metro areas with screaming internet connections but there are a lot of people that will have to give up some choices on where they live based upon services available. Yes, that is true already, but it looks like it will become much more restricting than it already is.
Yes, one should look out for strings and hooks all the time. "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts" and all that.
I'm all for Google lessening the user base of IE. That can only be a good thing. As it happens Firefox gets most of it's financial support from Google. So far so good.
We cannot say "The more Chrome users they have, the more they "own" the Internet.". Chrome is a free and open source browser. Like Firefox. I'm sure it would not get into the Debian repositories otherwise. No. IE was a close source, non-cross platform browser designed to hook you into MS and Windows. Nothing like the same thing. But still. V8 is opensource. FireFox or Opera or whoever could use it if they wanted. Node.js does. Not in the respect of the topics above. No. How?
I'm all for open standards, open source, users knowing what is on their machines and controlling their lives. Totally the opposite to the Microsoft model. Here I agree. What we have here is a mega corporation full of people trying to make the best out of it for themselves. You know, that swarm of sharks that moves in wherever the money is. And I do worry about what is going on. I'm sure if their street view or satellite imagery could look through my window and check what I'm eating for breakfast they would try to do so.
I cannot argue with your desire to fulfil customer requests and bring in money.
I don't have much idea about Scratch. Such systems seem well intentioned but ultimately useless if not confusing. If a child has a basic grasp of literacy and numeracy then a GUI programming tool is not required. Seems very young people can program in the normal textual manner http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiFOurKwy7M
I have no idea what Finnish kids get up to software wise in school. I'll try and find some and ask.
Bio and picture will be forth coming if and when I am worthy of joining the likes of those on the star contributors page.
That single point is why I do not think much of cloud computing.
Connectivity is EVERYTHING.
Correct about Microsoft...and before them IBM.
You are also correct about the loss of data...ask anyone who had contributed to Yahoo groups.
Ever been there when the data is lost?
That backup that never gets done becomes extremely important.
Note how reliant the legal system is on paper...and not electronic media.
One is coming...not if but when.
http://news.msn.com/in-depth/concern-grows-over-possibility-of-massive-power-surge
We almost got nailed in 2013.
If we had been hit, the survivors would be communicating by smoke signals right now.
I have similar concerns.
When I am at the cabin or traveling in remote areas, many times the only connection one has available is dialup.
Now try using dialup on most Internet sites today with their massive data bandwidth expectations of the user....LOL..good luck.
The hardwired phone system is much more robust than any broadband setup...and in any type of emergency it is available while cell service and broadband die off rapidly.
Oh wait..I see that Los Angeles just had a 5.1 earthquake...will their cloud computing still work?
P.S. Working for last 6 months for local university, I found the youtube to be the greatest enemy to electronics students - they saw something cool there, trying to repeat it, without understanding how it's done, and their success for particular project is their future failure.
For the stability, good redundancy does not needs cloud. Remember the huge hurrican Katrina in New Orleans, where most of city comms were destroyed? One of the key DNS registrars, DirectNic, headquartered there, continued to work even with flooded basement and half cut lines. Why? because they've had everything done properly, and no one heard about "clouds" these days. More info there: http://news.netcraft.com/archives/2005/08/31/directnic_stays_online_in_new_orleans_facility.html
That seems like an argument in favor of the cloud, not against it. It even hints at "cloud" computing in the article:
Fair point.
If civilization ended tomorrow I could still use my micro processor programming console to continue building my fluttermills unless of course the sun went out and I no longer had solar power.
BASIC language has always and still is able to solve whatever problem _I_ have at hand or simply have an idle interest in.
These days I use a pencil eraser to push the buttons though since my fingers are no longer as quick and as sure as they once were. Getting older sux but it still beats the alternative.
Jusa Nother Gom,
Tim