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Why Johnny Can't Breadboard — Parallax Forums

Why Johnny Can't Breadboard

Too_Many_ToolsToo_Many_Tools Posts: 765
edited 2014-03-08 06:34 in General Discussion
It has always struck me as ironic that as electronics (and science in general) becomes more and more important in the world, the less informed the public and especially the youth are in terms of basic science and electronics.

With the recent push for more programmers from the likes of Microsoft and Facebook, there continues to be a lack of emphasis on the hardware side of the equation.

In embedded design, if one does not have a good understanding of the hardware you cannot be an effective programmer.

Does anyone know of any efforts to increase the understanding of electronic hardware in today's elementary through high
schools?

FWIW..the only retail outlet that I know of that offered any type of electronics experimentation kit was Radio Shack...any other brick and motar place that does?

Thanks

Comments

  • Bob Lawrence (VE1RLL)Bob Lawrence (VE1RLL) Posts: 1,720
    edited 2014-03-05 20:12
    Have a look at the Raspberry Pi Project:

    http://www.raspberrypi.org/about

    http://www.raspberrypi.org/
  • MicrocontrolledMicrocontrolled Posts: 2,461
    edited 2014-03-05 20:28
    I'm certainly not the most experienced here, but here's my take on why the electronics hobby is not being taken up by many younger people. It really all boils down to one thing:
    You can't build the cool stuff anymore.

    Think about it. 40 years ago an experienced hobbyist could build a wide variety of modern commodities. Radios, stereos, clocks, HAM equipment, even televisions if they were good (and patient, those old cathode tubes are tricky). Once transistors and microprocessors began to come out you could literally build your own computer, to the top of the modern standard, with parts from RadioShack and mail order. And that isn't all! You could also repair a significant portion of modern technology using the skills you'd acquired as a hobbyist.
    Modern technology has exceeded that of the hobbyist market. Things aren't designed to be repaired or replicated, the modern technology that we use day to day cannot be built by a hobbyist. Younger people would rather learn how to write apps for their phone or programs for their computer, because those are the things that are used. Those are the things that you can show off to a crowd of people who don't care about the inner workings of your projects, and still get a response. Additionally, those are the things that make money.

    Granted, there are still some people (like myself) who take keen interest in the hardware side of things, but it is at a definite decline from the times that most of our forumers have lived through, and I think this may be one of the reasons for it.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2014-03-05 22:25
    Younger people would rather learn how to write apps for their phone or programs for their computer, because those are the things that are used. Those are the things that you can show off to a crowd of people who don't care about the inner workings of your projects, and still get a response. Additionally, those are the things that make money.
    Indeed ....

    Almost every time I think of a useful product idea, APP comes to mind. Being able to control something from an APP is not so bad I guess. There is also a set of things that a phone is simply too big or fragile to do. APPs are really today's equivalent of yesterday's gadget DIY.
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2014-03-05 23:30
    I'm worried.

    Traditionally, a lot of innovations have come from 'wild' talent, those who experiment in their garage.
    From those who teach themselvs and DOESN'T KNOW that something 'can't be done'...

    But today, most of the 'talent' employed by the big companies are those with 'book learning'. Those who has been taught 'the rules' and who KNOWS that something can't be done...

    Which is why the Basic Stamps, The Propellers, Arduinos, the FIGnition, Espruino, microPython all are so important.
    They set the 'tinkering bar' so low that pople can do a bit of HW hacking and actually have a chance of making it work.
    (No, the Raspberry isn't listed. Most people will have no chance in .... in building HW for it)

    There's very little 'real' work done on 'alternate' HW platforms.
    (Thinking 'desktop' now. sure, there are pads, but frankly, there's not much difference between those on the market)
    In the long run, the fact that the Wintel PCs 'won' the HW war may actually have been the biggest loss.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2014-03-05 23:56
    Gadgetman,
    , the Raspberry isn't listed. Most people will have no chance in .... in building HW for it
    Come now. why not?
    The Raspi is a little board with some I/O pins on it. Not so many as we would like perhaps but some. Some of those pins can be used as SPI or UART interfaces. There is a lot of scope for hardware tinkering. Judging by the number of questions about GPIO usage that come up on the Pi forums a lot of people are doing exactly that.

    My local electronic components store is selling a lot of Raspberry Pi's so it seems hardware hacking and Pi's go together quite well.

    Of course when Johnny has pushed that to the limit they can always add a Propeller :)

    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php/153275-Propeller-add-on-for-Raspberry-Pi-RoboPi..-the-most-advanced-robot-controller-for-Pi
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2014-03-06 02:41
    I've seen the snap circuits at retail stores and my son had a lot of fun with his.

    Plus the distinction between online shopping and brick and mortar is no longer that important. Except for food, appliances, and cars I buy most purchases online. For example I don't think I've set foot in a clothing store in a decade thanks to LL Bean and Lands End.
  • RDL2004RDL2004 Posts: 2,554
    edited 2014-03-06 08:49
    My local electronic components store is selling a lot of Raspberry Pi's so it seems hardware hacking and Pi's go together quite well.

    I wish I had a local electronic components store. Instead, I have a Radio Shack.

    Just kidding...well, not really.
  • xanaduxanadu Posts: 3,347
    edited 2014-03-06 09:00
    "Does anyone know of any efforts to increase the understanding of electronic hardware in today's elementary through high schools?"

    Parallax?

  • LevLev Posts: 182
    edited 2014-03-06 11:52
    I am a high school teacher. We offer the "Digital Electronics" class which is part of the national program "Project Lead the Way." Our students also have a FIRST Robotics team. I run an no-credit elective after school club that focuses on the Propeller, learning circuit building skills, sensors, and high altitude ballooning. We meet for about 3 hours each week, sometimes more. I also use microcontrollers in my physics classes. My physics class includes labs that explore basic circuit properties, the multimeter, capacitors, resistors, Ohms Law, KVL, KCL, etc. (time permitting).

    Most students who get involved in these things like it a lot. They appreciate learning to use tools, and how circuits work. But, I believe that a lack of familarity and confidence gained from past experience with the topics prevents some from trying it out in the first place.
  • PropGuy2PropGuy2 Posts: 360
    edited 2014-03-07 09:02
    Actually the problem is much bigger than electronics. The problem is most kids are taught to pass the test rather than do real learning and critical thinking. How many them have torn down a lawn mower engine, planted a garden, built a dog house out of wood, programmed a line of code, dissected an insect, shot a rifle, sailed a boat, studied astronomy/constellations, visit a natural history museum, learned a musical instrument. We live with so many taboos that it drives me crazy. Our local school system is eliminating algebra 2 and script writing - because it I too hard / gutter talk is the new literature - are you kidding me! Really? IMHO the education system we have now is completely failing to prepare students for the future. Please tell me I am wrong... Please.
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2014-03-07 09:58
    PropGuy2 wrote: »
    Actually the problem is much bigger than electronics. The problem is most kids are taught to pass the test rather than do real learning and critical thinking. How many them have torn down a lawn mower engine, planted a garden, built a dog house out of wood, programmed a line of code, dissected an insect, shot a rifle, sailed a boat, studied astronomy/constellations, visit a natural history museum, learned a musical instrument. We live with so many taboos that it drives me crazy. Our local school system is eliminating algebra 2 and script writing - because it I too hard / gutter talk is the new literature - are you kidding me! Really? IMHO the education system we have now is completely failing to prepare students for the future. Please tell me I am wrong... Please.

    Amen!

    I got my hair cut last night - simple, take a #5 blade and whack it off. I was joking with the stylist whether this "technique" was taught first or last at school. She very seriously said they spend one day on men's haircuts and most of what it taught is just what is needed to pass the state tests. It seems my 6th grade daughter spends a lot of her school year studying what she needs to know for the various state tests. She is learning a musical instrument and it seems most of those programs are falling because of budget issues. Again, due to budget issues, my wife (teacher in High School) has kids with 2 and 3 study halls due to a lack of electives. There seem to be many factors involved but none of them bode well for the future of the kids.

    Without opportunities, you'll never learn if you want to breadboard much less if you can or can't breadboard.
  • rod1963rod1963 Posts: 752
    edited 2014-03-07 11:36
    TV and the Internet are the primary culprits, both are colossal time wasters/distractors for kids today. They take time away from the things boys used to do traditionally like build models, wood, leather and metal crafts, astronomy, etc. When I was 10 or so I got my first Testors models, I remember when I was 12 I was already designing and casting my own lead toy soldiers from molds I built, learning electonics on my radio shack project kit. Then I got into chemistry and building fireworks, that was fun. A few years later my dad taught me the basics of Black Smithing and welding.

    Life was good back then.

    The schools are also to blame for taking away metal and wood shop classes, which ensured kids would lack even the most basic understanding and use of hand tools and machines. Not to mention stopping kids from developing confidence and pride in learning and doing things on their own.
    Instead schools focus on college prep courses.

    If you like working with your hands or have a artistic bent, there is no place for you in school anymore.
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2014-03-07 12:38
    ...here's my take on why the electronics hobby is not being taken up by many younger people. It really all boils down to one thing:
    You can't build the cool stuff anymore....

    There's plenty of cool stuff to build but it usually ends up getting the police called on you. At least anything that might compete with a video game will. From what I've seen, video/computer games are a major culprit.

    The real question is Why can't Johnny do ANYTHING these days? Kids nowadays don't want to do anything simply because it's cheaper, easier, and (arguably*) safer to just plug themselves in to the electronic babysitter and click away. Parents are complicit in this, too. I'm a mentor in a robotics competition and the continuous black-hole suck of video games is nothing short of devastating. It's turning kids into VGZs (Video Game Zombies). And I feel dang-near powerless to compete with it. It's depressing to say the least. We're creating a culture of future losers and hardly anyone is doing anything to stop it. And those who try to stand in its way, get thrown under the bus or steamrollered into the pavement, as has happened to me... Suddenly I'm a "mean guy" because I won't let kids play video games when they should be working on their robots, etc. Stupd me.


    * I say "arguably" because there seems to be an increasing number of scientific studies relating "screen time" with ADHD, etc. My own anecdotal experience confirms that suspicion.
  • xanaduxanadu Posts: 3,347
    edited 2014-03-07 19:54
    TMT,

    In all fairness. You're saying why can't Johnny breadboard on Parallax's site, which Johnny CAN breadboard.

    I have not seen one post of anything you have breadboarded, yet see many from "Johnny" in the projects section. I don't care how many kids want in on breadboards, I expect to see adults lead by action, not words.

    So make me sound like an idiot, and show me something you've done in relation to this.
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2014-03-07 21:41
    To help Johnny (and Janie) I want an instructables store. Someplace you ban browse for ideas of things to make and then learn how and get halp making them. I'm not sure what the Instructables store in San Francisco is like but I think my idea would be an amazing place to get started on a hobby or start the pursuit af actualy being able to make and do things. People come in look, touch feel and see things from Instructables come to life. See people actually making thnings with their hands...imagine the surpise and wonder when someone realizes they can acjtually make something!!!

    The only business moddl I can think of so far to make it work is to win the Lottery! I think it would be an interesting store front in a community and a partnership with a school district. It would also be a great partner with a maker space.

    Given the opportunity and the spark, Johnny CAN breadboard and learn to make things. Like Xanadu said, Parallax proves that!
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2014-03-07 23:04
    When teaching introductory materials, a short plausible presentation wins out over a lengthy precise one.

    When I started with electronics, the topic was about 50% the size of what it is today. I just focused on the ARRL Handbook and the Ham radio exam tutorials. But I also took a summer school class in electronics, even though it required 3 hours of bus rides to get to and from the classes.

    And so, part of the dilemma is the expansion of knowledge. Part of it is the role of the actual classroom. Are we to teach 'all and everything' to students or can we sort out need-to-know, nice-to-know, and need-not-know? Can the internet provide an education without the need to attend classes?

    Time marches on. The breadboard itself is about ready to disappear (along with the paper soda straw and the wooden pencil). It is hard to accept that nobody bothers with a calculator any more as the software form is on every computer, pad, and cell phone. Slide rules have gone the way of the do do bird. Oh, and we no longer use pieces of slate and chalk in a one-room school house.

    And so, the main thing here is not the size of the knowledge base -- but the educator's ability to start at an appropriate entry point and to take the student forward in a manner that sustains the student's desire to learn more. It is a skill and textbook publishers are always on the lookout for writers that have the knack to do this.

    The sad reality is that the 'internet tutorial' tends to be the anti-thesis of what the learner needs. It is often recycled material that has been written by someone that is just trying to teach themselves from what others have written on the internet.

    IN sum, teaching is a skill. It starts with a knowledge of both your topic and your audience. One without the other produces rather dry results. To know your audience really requires a classroom setting. Learning on the internet is never going to overcome the need for a room full of people discussing a topic.
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2014-03-08 01:10
    Strange to think...

    A Slide rule was the most advanced device used when Lockheed designed the Blackbird.
    And you can't significantly improve on that design without going to material or engine technology that wasn't available until decades later...

    Even a cheap calculator today has more processing power than the onboard computer on the Apollo missions...

    Both are examples of what can be built by thinking 'outside the box'.

    I've backed a Hackerspace on Kickstarter(Tampa) even if I'm not on the same continent, and will back others, too, if I see them.
    I've donated to summer camps, too(Both US and the Norwegian equivalent).

    This summer I intend to 'kidnap' my nephew, and make him to be outside with me, hiking in the mountains, flying RC gliders(just ordered drawings for a ME-163b Comet glider... THAT should get him interested, the little warmonger... ), fishing...

    For those who live near a Hackerspace, and have extra funds, why not sponsor a competition or two?
    'Build a maze-traversing robot' is a good one. 3 classes: Wheeled/tracked, Walking, oddball...
    Let the prize be decided by how far they get...
    Maybe they get a 'part prize' such as motors, batteries, stuff, as they pass certain points, and a cash prize if they reach the goal.
    (Yes, they're probably planning to use the money to buy another computer game, but... if that results in them focusing enough on the task of building something... what's wrong with that?)
  • PropGuy2PropGuy2 Posts: 360
    edited 2014-03-08 05:47
    Gadgetman has the Idea. Not everything is taught in the classroom, it is combination of parenting and traditional schooling. I don't know of any classes on how to fish, build a dog house, how to sail a boat, learn about Greek constellations, or a lot of other stuff. And again I am not talking about a few students that MIGHT have an interest in electronics, or whatever. I'm taking about having ALL students having the basic experience of knowing of the past AND learning for the future - in all areas of our cultural knowledge be it history, math, literature, so when they have to make informed/educated decisions relating technology, politics or business, it will be the best decision possible. So for example. if a student someday becomes a business man, he will be knowledgeable about his decisions as it will relates to culture, science and the bottom line - or maybe as a politician who may be in the position to pass a law that is against scientific principles or business practices. Or, Possibly just a worker bee, just trying to decide how to solve a problem with out reinventing the wheel, or knowing what question to ask. So my first question is Are the schools teaching students how to think and creatively solve problems - or what? IMHO the educational system is failing miserably. They have lost focus and have spent tons of money - and have precious little to show for it. OK don't believe me, just travel to some other countries (any country) and take a look around, you will be shocked. Peeps, we are getting beat up at every corner and don't even know its happening.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2014-03-08 06:34
    Education is failing for reasons similar to how and why medical care is failing. People expect someone else, that is a 'professional' to take over and resolve all the problems by setting the goals. A teacher has far less hours per day to influence a child than a parent and other family. That will always be the case. A doctor can only know something is wrong if you tell him or her. Whereas, a parent or family are aware of subtle shifts in health that occur over time.

    Learning from experience and being mentored by others in the know is certainly a very important part of life. Formal classes do help in many ways, but have gotten to be places where we store teenagers until adulthood. Expecting too much from institutions in determining your career goals is rather absurd. Governments do a lot of things for the wrong reasons.

    It was just recently that Taiwan shifted from mandatory education through the 9th grade to a mandatory education through the 12th grade to keep up with western nations. The results have been awkward as those last three years used to be a privileged for students that wanted to prepare for university. Kids that didn't care, were free to go out into the real world. Now, everyone has to stay.. regardless of their poor priorities and lack of goals. The results are less solidarity about learning in the high schools.

    But my main point is not the misplaced political/cultural expectations.

    Having solid parents and a good community might help a lot, but even those resources can fail with some kids. It also helps to have people in the classrooms that really care about where the youth are going.

    My point is that the really good teacher can take today's tools and make a relevant course with today's students. But it does require doing more than copying curriculum and syllabus that other's have used.
    In many cases, we are being overrun by too many gadgets that do far more to distract us than teach us.

    Classrooms may have done better when they were low tech and one author wrote a worthy tome that was poured over for a full school year. We are being overrun by accessories and consumerized 'feature-rich' educational materials. No time to focus on learning a topic completely, just search Wikipedia for a summary and cut and paste a reply.

    There are very solid reasons that Asian cultures place such high value and respect on those that actually teach. In general, teachers don't get rich, they just plod along living by a strong work ethic and sincere desire to help society. The really good ones are quite remarkable in how much they contribute to society.
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