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DE2-115 Adapter Boards - almost in stock. . . — Parallax Forums

DE2-115 Adapter Boards - almost in stock. . .

Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,395
edited 2014-03-01 15:14 in Propeller 2
Hey there,

Many people were asking for the DE2-115 Adapter Board, so we made some small changes and produced 25 units. They'll be in stock in about a week after we finish some documentation. We also have the DE2-115 Cyclone board in stock. We'll put these up at the same time as the Adapter Board.

This is a small production run because we expect to replace it with our own FPGA Cyclone V A7 Propeller 2 board in a few months. It's in design now and moving along nicely.

Ken Gracey

WP_000151.jpg
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Comments

  • cgraceycgracey Posts: 14,206
    edited 2014-02-26 16:29
    Looks good! How about the DE0-Nano adapter boards? We have a few people interested in those, too.
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2014-02-26 16:44
    Most excellent!! A week should match up with my bonus check.

    Are you taking reservations? Deposits?

    (I guess since I just ordered a second Nano today, I'll have multiples ... I can start a Terasic Park!! Ugh, sorry!)
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2014-02-26 16:53
    Those look REALLY good. I like the mounting holes.

    Right now, I am using stacks of sticky notepads under the add-on to prevent it from snapping off the DE2-115 connectors.
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2014-02-26 17:45
    Ken Gracey wrote: »
    Hey there,

    Many people were asking for the DE2-115 Adapter Board, so we made some small changes and produced 25 units. They'll be in stock in about a week after we finish some documentation. We also have the DE2-115 Cyclone board in stock. We'll put these up at the same time as the Adapter Board.

    This is a small production run because we expect to replace it with our own FPGA Cyclone V A7 Propeller 2 board in a few months. It's in design now and moving along nicely.

    Ken Gracey

    WP_000151.jpg
    Oooo... Mounting holes. Can I order one? How much? :-)
  • AleAle Posts: 2,363
    edited 2014-02-26 23:08
    Are these boards going to be compatible with the upcoming A7 board ?. Just curious. Are the connectors that different that two boards are needed for the DE-115 and the DE0-Nano ?

    Thanks !

    Edit: I don't have a DE2 neither I have a DE0-Nano, only BeMicro(s) CV :(
  • Ym2413aYm2413a Posts: 630
    edited 2014-02-27 02:46
    This is great Ken! I was wondering when those boards would come back in production for another run.
    I missed out on them the first time around.

    Thanks!
    --Andrew.
  • rjo__rjo__ Posts: 2,114
    edited 2014-02-27 06:26
    Thank you very much.

    Rich
  • User NameUser Name Posts: 1,451
    edited 2014-02-27 07:02
    cgracey wrote: »
    Looks good! How about the DE0-Nano adapter boards? We have a few people interested in those, too.

    S
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,395
    edited 2014-02-27 10:02
    cgracey wrote: »
    Looks good! How about the DE0-Nano adapter boards? We have a few people interested in those, too.

    DE0-Nano boards? When we talked in depth about the adapter boards in December you didn't mention that you wanted this one activated, too! A couple of considerations in regards to our time usage to do this:
    • The first run of the DE-0 adapters was done out of our business/MRP tools, out of the system. Would take time to properly setup and formalize (1/2 to a full day of somebody's time once it's all done right)
    • Sending the boards to production will delay the Altera Cyclone V A7 Propeller 2 FPGA by three days (3 days, Daniel's time - mostly BOM setup, running product)
    How many people want these? I see a few on this thread - but I need to hear from at least 50 people before I spend another minute looking into these. Is it worthwhile?

    Chip and others - I need your thoughts here before I proceed.

    Ken Gracey
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2014-02-27 10:58
    Once I get my DE2, I'd be happy to put my DE0 board up for adoption. I'll run my DE0's without the adapter board. I can do any video things on the DE2 (or the new Parallax board :thumb:)

    So, now you need one less!
  • User NameUser Name Posts: 1,451
    edited 2014-02-27 11:26
    @Parallax:

    Please don't delay anything on my account!! I'm satisfied to know there are currently no orphan adapter boards needing a good home.
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,395
    edited 2014-02-27 11:55
    User Name wrote: »
    @Parallax:

    Please don't delay anything on my account!! I'm satisfied to know there are currently no orphan adapter boards needing a good home.

    I'm happy to see this. We so often loose track of what it actually costs us (in time) to answer the demands. Often, the trade-offs are so great that we end up satisfying a few at the expense of everybody (and the whole business).

    There are DE0 adapter boards floating among us in the community. David Betz just told me he had one via e-mail. Drop me your e-mail via kgracey@parallax.com and I'll connect the two of you.

    Ken Gracey
  • FredBlaisFredBlais Posts: 375
    edited 2014-02-27 13:16
    Ken, I would be interested by the Cyclone V board. The DE2-115 at 600$ is a bit too pricey for me (300$ for academic but I'm not part of that anymore!). Do you have an idea if what would be the price for this board? sub 300$ ?
  • SeairthSeairth Posts: 2,474
    edited 2014-02-27 13:58
    If Chip makes a build for Nano that excludes video, there won't be much need for the breakout board. The flash and buttons can easily be thrown on a breadboard...
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2014-02-27 14:02
    Seairth wrote: »
    If Chip makes a build for Nano that excludes video, there won't be much need for the breakout board. The flash and buttons can easily be thrown on a breadboard...
    A Propeller without support for video? Isn't that sacrilege? :-)
  • rjo__rjo__ Posts: 2,114
    edited 2014-02-27 16:09
    Ken,

    When you send out the DE2-115 and/or add-on boards, you could include a return box for our Nano add-ons.

    Rich
  • SapiehaSapieha Posts: 2,964
    edited 2014-02-27 16:13
    Hi David.

    For debug porousnesses we can always use same type of Video out as P1 in software if all pins instead be I/O's


    David Betz wrote: »
    A Propeller without support for video? Isn't that sacrilege? :-)
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2014-02-27 16:33
    rjo__ wrote: »
    Ken,

    When you send out the DE2-115 and/or add-on boards, you could include a return box for our Nano add-ons.

    Rich

    Could we just do a community exchange program? If someone has a DE0 board. Post an availability and put it in a padded envelope when you find a match and mail it. Parallax doesn't need to tie up resources acting as a fulfillment center.
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,395
    edited 2014-02-27 16:49
    mindrobots wrote: »
    Could we just do a community exchange program? If someone has a DE0 board. Post an availability and put it in a padded envelope when you find a match and mail it. Parallax doesn't need to tie up resources acting as a fulfillment center.

    Yes, this would be so much easier. I really appreciate what's happening.

    So far today we've brokered two DE0-Nano add-on exchanges. David Betz gave his to User Name, and we had one at Parallax that went to Seairth.

    If we could continue to trade amongst ourselves we could avoid a costly manufacturing run. It would cost us about $5K to make 25 boards, even though the BOM cost is near nothing. The cost is all labor, all the time: buyers, inventory planners, engineers, all have their fixed role in anything we do, regardless of volume. Daniel is already behind schedule with or FPGA board so I don't want to add to the delay.

    Thanks David for sharing your board today.

    Ken Gracey
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,395
    edited 2014-02-27 16:54
    FredBlais wrote: »
    Ken, I would be interested by the Cyclone V board. The DE2-115 at 600$ is a bit too pricey for me (300$ for academic but I'm not part of that anymore!). Do you have an idea if what would be the price for this board? sub 300$ ?

    Hey Fred! I think the FPGA is nearly $200 on it's own, so I know our unit cost (just Bill of Materials and manufacturing labor) will hit $300 in a flash. I'm not pretending to be able to capitalize our non-recurring engineering costs over the 1,000 units we will build, but if we did the new Parallax board would probably be about $6-700. I'm going to do our best to keep the price under $500, and I know that's too much for most of us. The problem we face with products like this is the financial return is always long-term, from the Propeller 2. When all investments are long-term, there's little return in the near-term.

    Maybe we can make a deal with our community. If you sell 1,000 boards for us, somehow, we can make them $400 - or something along these lines.

    Ken Gracey
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2014-02-27 18:51
    Ken Gracey wrote: »
    Yes, this would be so much easier. I really appreciate what's happening.

    So far today we've brokered two DE0-Nano add-on exchanges. David Betz gave his to User Name, and we had one at Parallax that went to Seairth.

    If we could continue to trade amongst ourselves we could avoid a costly manufacturing run. It would cost us about $5K to make 25 boards, even though the BOM cost is near nothing. The cost is all labor, all the time: buyers, inventory planners, engineers, all have their fixed role in anything we do, regardless of volume. Daniel is already behind schedule with or FPGA board so I don't want to add to the delay.

    Thanks David for sharing your board today.

    Ken Gracey
    Ouch Ken - that is a serious overhead in costs.

    The DE0 is going to have many more restrictions on the next P2 pass. So not everyone is going to require the addon board anymore.
  • RamonRamon Posts: 484
    edited 2014-02-27 18:56
    I don't want to be negative but I must say how difficult I think it will be to create a fpga developer community with such high prices.

    Minimal FPGA boards (like DE0-nano or BeMicro CV) are wonderful pieces of hardware. DE0-nano has proved to be useful. It just only lacks more logic elements.

    Why don't just make something similar to this boards but with a bigger FPGA like Cyclone V A7?

    If Parallax has such high NRE cost, why not ask Terasic or Arrow for a DE0-nano / BeMicro CV customized board?
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2014-02-27 19:02
    Ken Gracey wrote: »
    Hey Fred! I think the FPGA is nearly $200 on it's own, so I know our unit cost (just Bill of Materials and manufacturing labor) will hit $300 in a flash. I'm not pretending to be able to capitalize our non-recurring engineering costs over the 1,000 units we will build, but if we did the new Parallax board would probably be about $6-700. I'm going to do our best to keep the price under $500, and I know that's too much for most of us. The problem we face with products like this is the financial return is always long-term, from the Propeller 2. When all investments are long-term, there's little return in the near-term.

    Maybe we can make a deal with our community. If you sell 1,000 boards for us, somehow, we can make them $400 - or something along these lines.

    Ken Gracey
    Is the FPGA on the Parallax board bigger than the one on the DE2-115 board so you'll be able to have all 8 COGs?
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,175
    edited 2014-02-27 19:06
    David Betz wrote: »
    Is the FPGA on the Parallax board bigger than the one on the DE2-115 board so you'll be able to have all 8 COGs?

    I think the target is ~ 6 COGs in that part.
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2014-02-27 19:12
    jmg wrote: »
    I think the target is ~ 6 COGs in that part.
    And we get 5 on the DE2-115? Is that enough of an improvement to justify making a new FPGA board? I suspect there are more advantages to the Parallax FPGA than that. Can someone point me to a description of it? I'm afraid I haven't had time to read all of the zillions of messages that have been posted to this forum recently. :-(
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,175
    edited 2014-02-27 19:14
    Ramon wrote: »
    Minimal FPGA boards (like DE0-nano or BeMicro CV) are wonderful pieces of hardware. DE0-nano has proved to be useful. It just only lacks more logic elements.

    Why don't just make something similar to this boards but with a bigger FPGA like Cyclone V A7?

    That's what they are doing, but the A7 is not cheap.

    This makes the BeMicro CV an important option, especially as it is under $40

    Still unclear, is if the BeMicro CV can fit a complete COG, or if it needs some removals.

    If one COG cannot fit into a BeMicro CV, then about that size is where the A7 drops to fitting 5 COGS, from fitting 6
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2014-02-27 19:19
    The DE2-115 has a Cyclone IV 4CE115 which has 115K LEs.

    The Cyclone V 5CEFA7C8N has 150K LEs. I might expect that this may in fact hold the full 8 cog design because currently we seem to be at ~25K (it doesn't fit the 22K DE0) but this has much of the hub logic too. The FPGA chip alone is ~$180 from DigiKey.
  • ozpropdevozpropdev Posts: 2,793
    edited 2014-02-27 19:22
    David Betz wrote: »
    And we get 5 on the DE2-115? Is that enough of an improvement to justify making a new FPGA board? I suspect there are more advantages to the Parallax FPGA than that. Can someone point me to a description of it? I'm afraid I haven't had time to read all of the zillions of messages that have been posted to this forum recently. :-(

    David, The DE2 only supports 4 Cogs now.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,175
    edited 2014-02-27 19:22
    David Betz wrote: »
    And we get 5 on the DE2-115? Is that enough of an improvement to justify making a new FPGA board? I suspect there are more advantages to the Parallax FPGA than that.

    One problem with Cyclone V boards is they tend to use more advanced DDR memory, not many bother with SDRAM

    There is a DE1-SoC Board coming, for $199/$150,
    http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=165&No=836&PartNo=2

    which does have

    64MB (32Mx16) SDRAM on FPGA
    1GB (2x256Mx16) DDR3 SDRAM on HPS
    Micro SD Card Socket on HPS
    and enough logic for 3 COGS ( up to 28.3k LE per COG )

    Maybe Parallax could get a price on an Educational P2 build subset of that ?
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2014-02-27 19:28
    ozpropdev wrote: »
    David, The DE2 only supports 4 Cogs now.
    Ah, I missed that. I've been waiting for the instruction set to freeze before doing any more P2 work so I didn't install the latest FPGA configuration.
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