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As if being located in CA wasn't enough of a challenge... — Parallax Forums

As if being located in CA wasn't enough of a challenge...

Oldbitcollector (Jeff)Oldbitcollector (Jeff) Posts: 8,091
edited 2014-02-05 21:30 in General Discussion
Teaching code without a license?? Oh no you don't.. (Checks calendar... not April...)

http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140130/11104326050/apparently-you-cant-teach-someone-to-code-california-without-license.shtml

Un 'freak'n believeable. (Hey Parallax. The property values in Ohio are still pretty good here. Friendly to manufacturing here as well..)
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Comments

  • davejamesdavejames Posts: 4,047
    edited 2014-02-01 10:20
    ...I wonder if this will have any affect on me teaching our customers how to code in our system's language?

    (Kalifornia - where the inmates run the asylum!)
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2014-02-01 11:13
    The teachers unions have waaaay too much influence ... everywhere.

    Education is important, but there is only so much interference that can be tolerated.

    I like this other Einstein curiosity quote: "It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education."
  • sidecar-racersidecar-racer Posts: 82
    edited 2014-02-01 11:29
    How about a license to repair electrical/electronic devices? (Note: same license to repair toasters)
    For me in addtion to business license, registered engineer license, Resale license, FCC license, driver's license :lol:
  • Beau SchwabeBeau Schwabe Posts: 6,566
    edited 2014-02-01 11:46
    Wonder if this stems from the ridiculous public education system in the US. The "no child left behind" policy really hurts those students who excel and consequently keeps EVERYONE from exploring their maximum potential or at least the public education system mentality plants the mindset of being a "content underachiever".
    626 x 672 - 83K
  • JonnyMacJonnyMac Posts: 9,107
    edited 2014-02-01 15:35
    BPPE is charged with licensing and regulating postsecondary education in California...


    This is "code" for extorting money from those they can.

    The "no child left behind" policy really hurts those students who excel and consequently keeps EVERYONE from exploring their maximum potential or at least the public education system mentality plants the mindset of being a "content underachiever".


    Socialists do not have the capacity to understand the difference between equal opportunities (which we have) and equal outcomes (which no society has had or ever will have).
  • xanatosxanatos Posts: 1,120
    edited 2014-02-01 16:44
    Scary stuff... it always amazes me how people who have no business messing in the affairs of others, can scare people who have no idea what is being discussed, into doing things that no one actually benefits from - except the people doing the scaring.

    What I am pretty certain of is this: with the increasing dominance of code-based technology all around us, controlling everything from our phones to the electric grid, it's only a matter of time before anyone who KNOWS how to code - will be facing some kind of scrutiny. The king will want to know who has the keys to the kingdom... and if they should or not.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2014-02-01 16:49
    Actual living breathing self-identifying socialists -- I know a couple in real life -- certainly do know the difference between opportunity and outcome, and it really burns their shorts when this straw man gets trotted out.

    Teachers' unions exist becuase of pervasive ongoing pressures to dismantle public education. NCLB is a direct attempt -- much like so-called TRAP efforts to eliminate access to $CONTROVERSIAL_MEDICAL_PROCEDURE not by outright outlawing things but by over-regulating them to the point where practice is impossible. Under NCLB if un-meetable goals are not met public institutions are gutted to be replaced with free-market solutions that everyone assumes will be better because, hey free market capitalism and all that jazz. They forget the part where science class teaches humans and dinosaurs walking together while arks are built.

    The OP topic is, however, indeed a simple power and fee grab. My father was a teacher and I'm quite sure the teachers have nothing to do with this. But the same folks who want all schools to be profit centers for themselves (and if you can't afford 'em too bad) also want to go the next step and have a monopoly so if you can't afford to pay them to teach your kids to read, you can't get anyone else to do it either. Because nothing says "free market" like the State pounding your competition to dust for you.
  • ctwardellctwardell Posts: 1,716
    edited 2014-02-01 17:36
    localroger wrote: »
    They forget the part where science class teaches humans and dinosaurs walking together while arks are built.

    How about making your point without anti-religious comments?

    Those kind of comments do not belong here.

    Chris Wardell
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2014-02-01 17:38
    My father the teacher was also a devout, tithing, three church services a week and deacon Southern Baptist. He also had a Ph.D. in Physics. It is not anti-religion to point out that science class should teach science, not religion.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2014-02-01 17:40
    I do believe the wheels of this thread are no longer in contact with the rails, if any mods should take my hint.
  • ctwardellctwardell Posts: 1,716
    edited 2014-02-01 17:48
    localroger wrote: »
    My father the teacher was also a devout, tithing, three church services a week and deacon Southern Baptist. He also had a Ph.D. in Physics. It is not anti-religion to point out that science class should teach science, not religion.

    The science comment in addition to the "$CONTROVERSIAL_MEDICAL_PROCEDURE" comment sure seem to be on shaky ground as far as the forum guidelines are concerned.

    Making any argument against those statements would certainly be moderated as discussing religion.

    Chris Wardell
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2014-02-01 18:18
    At least some of the bootcamps that got C&Ds call themselves schools, and conduct themselves as full-fledged schools. These aren't weekend MakerFaire gatherings.

    The goal of some of the smaller bootcamps is single-skill learning, such as how to solder. There are no state approval processes for such learning, so there's nothing to license. I don't think the state has any interest in these.

    For these smaller venues, just don't call the bootcamp events "educational." There should be a lot of other phases that can convey the purpose of the event without invoking regulatory intervention. For example, "workshop." You would likewise avoid the words "institution," "school," "college," and others that might give the impression the group is formally accredited.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2014-02-01 18:22
    I don't know about California, but in the South it is not possible to discuss certain education guidlines without dealing with the proponents of young-Earth Creationism. This is a weird topic because on one hand it is central to Parallax's mission but on the other it is not really possible to discuss it honestly without violating the forum guidelines in several basic ways.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2014-02-01 18:26
    Gordon, that's very interesting. I wonder how extensive these "schools'" "curriculums" are. Could be more of a scam than a Maker Faire and maybe the state isn't out of line to put a regulatory eye on them.
  • ctwardellctwardell Posts: 1,716
    edited 2014-02-01 18:43
    localroger wrote: »
    Gordon, that's very interesting. I wonder how extensive these "schools'" "curriculums" are. Could be more of a scam than a Maker Faire and maybe the state isn't out of line to put a regulatory eye on them.

    That might be the key. If they make any claims of helping you get a job that would be a big issue as well.

    C.W.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2014-02-01 18:55
    OK, it always helps to read the OP, or in this case the OP's link to the OOP.
    The programs typically last 10 to 12 weeks. Potential recruits are often told that they have a shot at a job or internship at a competitive tech company like Facebook or Google. Tuition costs vary widely. At Hackbright Academy, it’s $15,000 for a 10 week program. Full scholarships are available, and students who land a job at a company in the Hackbright network can request a partial refund. At Hack Reactor, where tuition costs over $17,000, 99 percent of students are offered a job at companies like Adobe and Google. According to Phillips, the average salary for a computer scientist at these firms is over six figures.
    OK I got alarm bells clanging all over the house over this. That's not "learn to code," that's "pay $10k-$20K for a shot at a job at Google." Knowing what I've read of Adobe and Google's hiring practices, Hack Reactor's claim simply doesn't hold water. So there is some mighty fishy stuff going on here. Annoying as it can be at times we have a government for a reason, and it looks like this might be one of those times.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2014-02-01 20:06
    And OH YEAH, while 99% of students might get offered a job, is it as a 6-figure salary COMPUTER SCIENTIST? Or is it a low 5 figure job with no security similar to an internship?
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2014-02-01 20:11
    Anytime there's a surfeit of cash available for something, there will be scam artists aplenty who try to grab as much of it as they can. The Student Loan Program and GI Bill are two such sources. (Remember, student loans cannot be erased by bankruptcy.) So we see multiple examples, not only of shady, ineffective "educational" institutions ([cough] University of Phoenix [cough]) on the rise, but an even more alarming rise in tuitions at traditional universities. I'm with localroger: there is a role for government here to help curb the abuse. In fact, I believe they should be doing more.

    -Phil
  • WBA ConsultingWBA Consulting Posts: 2,934
    edited 2014-02-01 20:26
    Teaching code without a license??

    I think you meant to say "Charging tuition for a formalized educational coding program without a license??" While the efforts of the BPPE may seem to be jaded by that article, you need to check out the actual verbiage and the places named. For example, Hackbright charges $15k for a 12 week course in programming. That's the issue. The definition of the entities they are attempting to govern do not govern Parallax's classes or events in any way. They are going after places that charge tuition for their services, but escape any regulation. That's a valid concern if they end up clouding what "certification" might mean for such programming skills by proper accredited institutions. However, in most cases, these coding places are not handing out certifications that are meant to be equals to those of accredited institutions. That is why I think the BPPE is a worthless effort and only going to hurt people trying to learn.

    Something similar that I don't like are places that have programs with names that are mis-leading like Masters of something based upon Professional Practice. In the past year, I had applicants with "Masters in Engineering" listed on their resume' apply for an entry level Engineering Position. When I did research on the schools they listed, they were online programs with weak course syllabus', yet very expensive. Essentially, and in my opinion, these people paid a legal accredited college for a title to add to their resume'. (and paid quite a bit too) Not one made it past my phone interview, so that's my reasoning to be so biased.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2014-02-01 23:14
    I don't think that there is anything really noble about the California Department of Consumer Affairs. They have a long sorid history for creating licensing and certification and continuing education programs that really block the 'little guy' from free enterprise.

    About the only thing that might protect a company such as Parallax is to promptly get appointed to a seat of whatever examining board that they create for computer coders.

    Of course, that means you have to play 'their game' and be in good stead with the cronies in power, go to all the boring meetings, and listen to all the whacko proposals.. and sometimes vote for things you dislike because you want other to vote for things important to you.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2014-02-01 23:18
    How about a license to repair electrical/electronic devices? (Note: same license to repair toasters)
    For me in addtion to business license, registered engineer license, Resale license, FCC license, driver's license :lol:

    ummm.. in California, repair of a toaster would require a licensed electrician (anything over about 40 volts). And don't forget your state sales tax reports, and registered business name.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2014-02-01 23:38
    I generally like living in California. I don't care for San Francisco for many, many reasons including that Oddities thing on SCI.

    It's really hard to beat the weather except during drought times. I don't care for the property taxes mainly because property values are very high, but at about %1 here beats %3 in parts of Texas or Florida.

    I don't really want to retire here in California, but may have no choice because my family thinks this is the greatest place on earth.

    BTW, No Child Left Behind was signed by our buddy dubya :)
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2014-02-02 03:31
    Well, I can understand that the Department of Consumer Affairs wants to put a stop to the scam educators that claim miracles in a short period of time. California has an excellent tuition refund law that applies to all adult educations so that you can jump ship if you get involved in a course that is bogus, or not appropriate for your level of ability.

    But, they also do have a lot of industrial petty bureaucrats that push out small businesses and protect their own turn (beauty colleges, tax preparer schools, acupuncture schools, and so on).

    I always found it interesting that the politicians that were too corrupt to get re-elected in San Francisco, went to Sacramento to continue their careers (ex-mayor Wille Brown is the poster child of this process).

    California was a great place when I was a kid, but now that it has 60 million or so in population, and mostly new comers ... it has just become a great destination state for Phi Beta Kappa lawyers and accountants.

    If you didn't rent a nice place in San Francisco just stay put for the rest of your life, that city is too expensive for the average person to enjoy. The Bay Area has gotten over grown. Los Angles is caught up in the Hollywood la-la. And the rest of the state is pretty much rural and tries to carry on independently (like where Parallax is).

    Even though I was born there, I doubt if I will ever return. There are better places to be a newcomer in the USA - cheaper housing, lower cost of living, more cordial neighbors. Sometimes too much gets melted in the 'Great American Cultural Melting Pot' and everyone seems to have lost their way.

    Good weather isn't everything. If it was, we would all have moved to Hawaii.
  • Peter KG6LSEPeter KG6LSE Posts: 1,383
    edited 2014-02-02 08:52
    So cal is the worst ....... I Am soo glad I am up in Oregon ..
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2014-02-02 09:38
    So cal is the worst ....... I Am soo glad I am up in Oregon ..

    That's why we value diversity! There are probably people living in SoCal that wouldn't be caught in Oregon or even lovely Medina!

    Remember, opinions are like, uhm, ....elbows, yeah, that's it!! 'Cuz everybody has one or two! :0)

    I think it's great where anyone wants to live as long as it isn't near me!
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2014-02-02 10:22
    mindrobots wrote: »
    I think it's great where anyone wants to live as long as it isn't near me!

    Moving as soon as I get a chance ;)
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2014-02-02 10:26
    ummm.. in California, repair of a toaster would require a licensed electrician

    You would hope so. Appliance repair is a good example of why you want licensing. You don't need a license to fix your own, because you assume all the risk, but if you pay someone to do it, it's nice to know they have the minimal training to know what they're doing.

    I'm sure there are other areas where licensing requirements go too far, but this isn't one of them.

    The problem with many of these "news" sites is that the reportage is often poor -- badly informed, biased, or both. The state is clamping down on unlicensed schools, not teaching in general, and from appearances not the kind of building-block teaching Parallax does as part of their educational activities. If Parallax were to create Parallax University -- affectionately known as P.U. -- and offer a CS curriculum and placement programs like Hack Reactor, then that would change things.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2014-02-02 12:47
    I found the idea of licensing appliance repairmen so bizarre that I went searching for it. Whaddaya know, CA does require a license for the privilege of charging someone money to repair their toaster:

    http://www.bear.ca.gov/licensing_info/register_faqs.shtml

    Isn't it great that a state has taken such a bold stand to make sure consumers are getting quality service! Wait, what's that on the page?
    6. Are there any examination, education, or experience requirements for a registration issued by BEAR?

    No.
    So it's just a tax. This is my shocked and disappointed face.
  • RforbesRforbes Posts: 281
    edited 2014-02-02 13:30
    In North Carolina we need this kind of regulation and more. We have too many people who haven't graduated high school and/or are illiterate working as maintenance electricians (just one example) because of connections and the good ole boy system. Staff at our summer camps are just as bad. It perpetuates ignorance and degrades consumer confidence when people are allowed to earn income by offering services or goods that are clearly unqualified to offer. The "home handyman" gimmick around here is the worst by far, but they are usually cheap so get tons of business. Then the customer has to pay twice as much for a licensed carpenter to tear out the Smile Mr. Bob'll Fixit did in order to fix it correctly.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2014-02-03 08:29
    localroger wrote: »
    I found the idea of licensing appliance repairmen so bizarre that I went searching for it. Whaddaya know, CA does require a license for the privilege of charging someone money to repair their toaster:

    http://www.bear.ca.gov/licensing_info/register_faqs.shtml

    Isn't it great that a state has taken such a bold stand to make sure consumers are getting quality service! Wait, what's that on the page?

    So it's just a tax. This is my shocked and disappointed face.

    And so, I rest my case. California's Department of Consumer Affairs has a long sordid history. It seems mostly to collect fees and create another industry exams, certifications, and continuing eduction to keep certification.

    The end result is nobody wants to repair a toaster... they just tell you to buy a new one.
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