Options/Mil Spec-Mil STD?
trooks
Posts: 228
I fear I let Google lead me down a path.
It is really easy for a retired old geezer to be somewhat fascinated with the 'Golly gee whiz bang' stuff that is presented on this site but I have serious need of a serious multiprocessor that will not require that I learn a new dialect of Basic or C programming.
Does anyone here know right off of options in multi-processor chips that will run mainstream Basic or C. I figure investors are more likely to invest in something when they know they can hire a programmer to modify/fine tune it to suit their specific/changing needs.
Y'all have fun now, you here,
Tim
"If it is free you are paying what it is worth and are possibly looking at a Kings ransom to rid yourself of it." - I said that.
It is really easy for a retired old geezer to be somewhat fascinated with the 'Golly gee whiz bang' stuff that is presented on this site but I have serious need of a serious multiprocessor that will not require that I learn a new dialect of Basic or C programming.
Does anyone here know right off of options in multi-processor chips that will run mainstream Basic or C. I figure investors are more likely to invest in something when they know they can hire a programmer to modify/fine tune it to suit their specific/changing needs.
Y'all have fun now, you here,
Tim
"If it is free you are paying what it is worth and are possibly looking at a Kings ransom to rid yourself of it." - I said that.
Comments
Hi Tim,
Naturally, I'm going to suggest that you have a look at Catalina - 100% ANSI C that even a novice C programmer can use to build a sophisticated multiprocessor system based on one or more Propeller chips!
However, in fairness, I should also point out that GCC C/C++ also runs on the Propeller, if that's what floats your boat.
And yes, we do have fun!
Ross.
As far as I can tell the best options for multi-processor micro-controllers are the Propeller and the devices by XMOS. They each have their pros and cons when compared of course so you might want to see how each might fit your application.
This is 2014 so I would not entertain the idea of BASIC anymore. As Ross says C is available for the Propeller so life is good.
XMOS is programmable in C but to make best use of it's features you will want to use the xc dialect. That is not something to be afraid of though.
By the way, what's with the "Mil Spec-Mil STD" thing? Is thata requirement? If so the Prop is perhaps off the table. I don't know about XMOS.
I will definitely give Catalina a look over.
My main problem with the Propeller chip is the lack of memory per Cog for Basic code. Out at the end of the line where precision timing and movement comes into play I can do more work with tighter control and use less memory if the code is written in Basic to begin with.
My first exposure to multi-processing was in the late 60s when the physical location of circuitry played a key role in getting the timing of the thing to work. At the speed of logic these days it's like having miles of slack to work with.
The Propeller as it stands today will not pass the standard for operating temperature range I need anyway.
I just had the silliest thought go through my head. If I should win the 'PowerBall' I will hire programmers to build yet another C compiler and call it the Mule. I will rename the commands to things like Gee, Haw and WhoaBack<Very Big Silly Grin>.
Thanks again,
Tim
Thank you for your input.
My love of basic goes back to my days of testing 'mainframes' when they first came out of manufacturing. In those days the console was a big rack of dials, toggle switches and buttons usually on the end of the 'frame'. When you needed to troubleshoot the processor it was a must that you could speak its' language.
Inside the computer you are using there is a chip called the BIOS. Would you care to venture a guess what the 'B' stands for? It is my firm conviction that, no matter how large and complex computers get, buried somewhere inside will be a bit of logic that determines when and how and what it does with the programming given to it.
My partner and I are not building a play toy. The first thing we did was check, double check and triple check some things and then get it in writing from the ATF that we would not be breaking any laws. If things go as planned we will be rich and/or infamous.
Standards are important to some people because they guarantee a continuity of things being understandable.
I have about come to the conclusion that I need to write my own time-slice multiplexer and put the interrupts back in. I have no doubt that I can do it all using 16 bit processors. Every bit of it will be written in long established and easy to document code.
I know y'all are having fun and hope y'all will continue to do so,
Tim
The B in BIOS stands for Basic, yes, but not as in the BASIC Language.
In this case it has the meaning of 'Low level' as the BIOS contains the lowest Level SW for accessing Hardware.
(LLIOS doesn't sound as good, though)
Now, trying to imagine what you want to build boggles the mind...
(The ATF doesn't normally worry about computers... )
BIOS = Basic Input Output Subsystem. The BIOS is not a chip it's a piece of software. It's the first code that is run when the PC starts.
BASIC = Beginners All-purpose Instruction Code. BASIC is a programming language devised to simplify programming for beginners.
I know little of main frames. I have heard many came with no BIOS or other bootstrap code to get them started but rather one had to toggle the boot sequence into the core store, using those switches on the console panels on power up. Much like the Altair micro computer. If you were doing that you were not using BASIC but the machines instruction set directly. Probably in octal.
I do agree, learning at least one machine language is a good idea for anyone interested in programming.
I might suggest that you go for a 32 bit machine rather than 16. This is 2014, 32 bit micro-controllers and microprocessors are very small, cheap and low power. There seems to be little point in using 16 bit architectures except in special circumstances.
WTF is ATF?
Or possibly the Atlantic Theatre festival in Canada...
I am currently using pfth Forth with precisely timed loops from a 1067 item lookup table in increments of 30microseconds per count. If you want smaller than tens of microseconds, you likely have to use the assembler, called PASM.
The big advantage with Forth is that the dictionary is in the 32K ram space and lookup tables, constants, and variables can be there as well. Also, an SDcard can hold an extended Forth dictionary to give you Gbytes of storage.
pfth has a resident text editor, called TED and a mini-Linux-like set of utilities called Spinx. You can skip the TED and Spinx and just use the Propeller in a stand alone, or you can get roomy-er with the addition of an SDcard holder.
Tackyon and PropForth also take advantage of the larger EEPROM by exploiting storage in the space beyond 32K in the eeprom (when such an eeprom is on-board).
The biggest advantage of Forth is that it is an interpreted language that you can program and study interactively; unlike C, which is write-compile-load-test cycle process.
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Mil-spec/Mil-STD used to be a great way to decide the generic merits of something. It certainly still means quality in motor oil. But it does imply that the producer has the big bucks, deep pockets to work through the military procurement and compliance process. In some cases, that works against getting something new and innovation -- such as the Propeller.
Parallax is a small business enterprise by US Small Business Administration standards. it doesn't contract to supply the US military as it would just be a huge overhead burden. But it does have a commitment to excellence and ruggedness that is just as good or better than other processors out there.
ATF and Mil spec/Mil STAN seems to imply that a firearm/fire control application is what the OP is working towards with sales to the US or other military. And so the Mil spec/Mil STAN qualification is something he should take up directly with Ken Gracy if there is a desire to qualify. Parallax might be willing to colaborate on a certification.
For mainfames? Um, no.
We had tapes (or 8 inch floppies in later years) containing test and diagnostic routines written in ASSEMBLER. There was nothing anywhere close to be BASIC run on the mainframes until some customer installed way past build/test/ship install phase. I don't remember the details of the bootstrap process but it generally involved setting paths to devices to read from or an 8080 based "console" reading the floppy and slamming the blob of numbers into memory and forcing an interrupt. From there, you were running whatever you loaded and it provided any services, basic I/O or otherwise.
Simplest case, you issued a Start I/O instruction with a memory address and an I/O path. Once that instruction completed (tape stops spinning), you key in a Jump to the address you loaded stuff into and hope it all works!
That is when things were FUN!!
The BIOS did not exist in the mainframe days(at least my 12 years). It is a mini/micro manifestation like Gadgetman (I like LLIOS!)and others have described!