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Why the US isn’t the world leader in speedy internet access — Parallax Forums

Why the US isn’t the world leader in speedy internet access

Too_Many_ToolsToo_Many_Tools Posts: 765
edited 2014-01-05 07:04 in General Discussion
FYI...

http://news.msn.com/science-technology/why-the-us-isn%e2%80%99t-the-world-leader-in-speedy-internet-access
[h=1]Why the US isn’t the world leader in speedy internet access
By By Tim Fernholz of Quartz [EMAIL="?subject=Why%20the%20US%20isn%e2%80%99t%20the%20world%20leader%20in%20speedy%20internet%20access&body=I%20thought%20you%20would%20be%20interested%20in%20this%20story%20I%20found%20on%20news.msn.com%3a%20Why%20the%20US%20isn%e2%80%99t%20the%20world%20leader%20in%20speedy%20internet%20access%20(http%3a%2f%2fnews.msn.com%2fscience-technology%2fwhy-the-us-isn%25E2%2580%2599t-the-world-leader-in-speedy-internet-access%23tscptme)"][/h][/EMAIL]The US is ranked 14th in the OECD, a group of wealthy economies, with only 28.8% of the population accessing a fixed broadband subscription.
If you’ve heard about the backward state of US internet infrastructure, you’ve probably read the anecdotes about Riga, the Latvian capital has faster-than-fast internet speeds, or Estonia, with its post-Soviet technology obsession has become an internet leader.
Related: Here’s the one thing someone needs to invent before the internet of things can take off
Still, both countries lag behind the US on the World Economic Forum’s ranking (pdf) of internet bandwidth available per user. The US, which ranked 35th in 2012, offers the average citizen 62.3 kB per second, while the top performer, Luxembourg, offers its citizens connectivity at the thrilling speed of 4 MB per second. The top 10 providers of high average bandwidth have something in common: They are small, rich countries—Hong Kong, Malta, Singapore, and Iceland round out the top five. While the US has high-speed internet access in some cities that out-strips other countries, slow speeds in rural areas drag down the average.
But a similar phenomenon plays out when it comes to broadband penetration: The US is ranked 14th in the OECD, a group of wealthy economies, with only 28.8% of the population—90 million people—accessing a fixed broadband subscription, which is three times as many as Japan, the country with the second-most subscribers, and 30 times more than Switzerland, the country with the highest penetration.
Related: 70% of people would be willing to have a smart toilet share their personal data
Perhaps the biggest difference between the US and other countries is subsidies. South Korea, another economy whose internet infrastructure and wired population often bests the US, has made lowering the cost of internet access a national priority; for example, some of the cost of internet for the low-income population is covered. That would be a hard sell in the US where the idea of subsidizing health care for the poor is controversial.
That’s why the real debate is how much broadband internet can be considered a utility—a public good provided by the private sector. While telecoms are heavily regulated, there’s not the same sense in America that internet access is a necessity in the same way that power, water, and even telephone land-lines are. That view would be a sea-change for policy—while the Obama administration invested in broadband in the 2009 stimulus plan, it still falls behind many other countries that already consider it a public good.
Related: Over 60% of internet traffic doesn’t come from humans
The national broadband goal announced by the president (pdf) is connecting 99% of the nation’s schools by 2018, something South Korea has already done. China, meanwhile, announced this year it would spend $323 billion to put its entire population online by 2020.
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Comments

  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-12-30 20:22
    Well, if they let you guys have faster internet connections then the NSA would not be able to keep up now would it.

    I'm getting abut 10 Mega Bits Per Second upload and download speeds here in Helsinki for 5 Euro a month.
  • Too_Many_ToolsToo_Many_Tools Posts: 765
    edited 2013-12-30 20:41
    Heater. wrote: »
    Well, if they let you guys have faster internet connections then the NSA would not be able to keep up now would it.

    I'm getting abut 10 Mega Bits Per Second upload and download speeds here in Helsinki for 5 Euro a month.

    Well if they would just quit moving their lips as they read my posts they could keep up!!
  • whickerwhicker Posts: 749
    edited 2013-12-30 22:49
    I don't think the US is going to ever get high speed access "on average".

    When comparing to other countries, how the cities are set up isn't taken into account.


    Let me tell an anecdote:

    Having had a discussion one time in Texas, it's a big joke when vacationing Europeans land at DFW (Dallas-Forth Worth Airport) and expect to take a bus to all the different sites around the US for the weekend (Nashville, Atlanta, Statue of Liberty, Hoover Dam, Grand Canyon, ). They end up in Arkansas or barely Tennessee before having to turn around, having seen nothing but a lot of empty land and trees. If they start the other way and head west, they barely get out of Texas into the desert of New Mexico.

    So it's unfair to compare the European or Asian countries where it's mere minutes from town to town on average. In the US, you're basically going to have to exclude the rural and isolated areas, and just look at metropolitan areas or within at least villages and above. There's just so much empty space with absolutely no reason to ever run optical fiber to. Plus the more... uhhh... country folks tend to not want fast internet anyways.

    What also isn't fair is that even if the rural areas are using dialup or cellular Internet, they are still getting some level of service. So again it's not fair to average all the service speeds together, low and high, with other countries that have an all-or-nothing approach.
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2013-12-31 04:24
    The same urban versus rural dynamic was a problem for both electric and phone line deployment. Growing up in the 1970's I lived in rural upstate New York and there weren't enough phone lines for every home to have its own number. So we had party line with our neighbors for several years until new infrastructure was deployed. We never had cable because the population density was too low for subscription fees to allow for profit for the cable company. My grandmother would tell stories about how they were some of the last people in New York to get electricity.
  • CuriousOneCuriousOne Posts: 931
    edited 2013-12-31 06:21
    here in Georgia (country) for about 18 euros per month, you're getting 22mbit internet, 72 tv channels and landline phone.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-12-31 06:39
    whicker,
    ... it's a big joke when vacationing Europeans land at DFW...
    We have similar chuckles over the Yanks coming to Europe. Fly around every city possible in one week. See everything but see nothing.

    Anyway your argument about poor networking in the USA due to a dispersed population is often stated but does not stand up to facts.

    Nearly 90% of the population of the USA lives in cities. You are more urban dwellers than most of Europe. Finland for example is only about 70%.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AonYZs4MzlZbdFk3R1R1aXZPTlROdW9jZUpLZS1xVGc#gid=0
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2013-12-31 07:15
    Heater, that may be true, but 10 percent being dialup can completely distort the mean. One problem is that the US is a nation of nations, so one state may have the resources to get broadband rolled out, but another state might not. The result is that the mean doesn't describe the experience of any specific person or state. For example in Massachusetts we have pretty awesome fiber optic to the home from multiple vendors, but New Hampshire doesn't.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2013-12-31 08:24
    Heater is at it again.
    The simple fact is that the USA is a rather large country with population density significantly sparser west of the Mississippi. You can't have DSL Broadband and optical fiber service perform profitably in such rural areas.

    Taiwan claims superior penetration of the internet, but the realities are that my DSL service speeds degrade significantly when I go international. To the USA is the best service, to Europe and the UK is the absolute worst.

    I suspect the Russians in Siberia are still using dialup service if they can get anything at all. Europe may be fast within the EU, but is it a snail for those of use in Asia.

    Of course, some of the slow down could be due to the NSA offloading whatever they are snooping.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-12-31 08:25
    Martin_H,

    I don't buy that. How is that different than Finland say with 30% of the population living out in the forrset? The NSA...sorry USA should be doing better if you look at it like that.

    I suspect most of the people in the forests of Finland get better than dial up connection via the 3G network.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-12-31 08:32
    Loopy,
    The simple fact is that the USA is a rather large country with population density significantly sparser west of the Mississippi. You can't have DSL Broadband and optical fiber service perform profitably in such rural areas.

    We can compare the USA to Europe in terms of size and population. The simple fact[1] is that the USA has a larger percentage of it's population living in cities than most of Europe. Ergo the sparse population argument does not wash. The statistics indicate it should be easier to get most Americans a high speed connection.

    [1] Where "simple fact" is rather complex but comes from googling around about population statistics, see link given above.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-12-31 08:38
    Loopy,
    ...my DSL service speeds degrade significantly when I go international...

    Ah yes. It's no good having giga bits per second from your ISP if the pipes to the country can't cope. Somewhat a different topic.

    Leads to the weird situation though that I might have faster access to Parallax in the USA from Europe than that farmer in Iowa. :)
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2013-12-31 08:44
    But Finland is a single nation, the whole sovereign nature of states is something you aren't taking into account. There's almost nothing a resident of my state can do to get broadband rolled out in another state. It would have to go through the federal government which was designed to be a somewhat disfunctional entity to limit centralized power.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2013-12-31 08:47
    Heater. wrote: »
    Leads to the weird situation though that I might have faster access to Parallax in the USA from Europe than that farmer in Iowa. :)
    Telephone lines in Iowa.

    NemontBarbedWireFenceWithRoad.jpg
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-12-31 09:00
    Martin,

    What difference does it make that Finland is a single nation? As a whole 90% of Americans live in cities. It should be as easy to wire up city dwellers no matter what state their city is in. Same as wiring up city dwellers in Europe no matter what country they are in.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2013-12-31 09:16
    Heater. wrote: »
    What difference does it make that Finland is a single nation? As a whole 90% of Americans live in cities. It should be as easy to wire up city dwellers no matter what state their city is in. Same as wiring up city dwellers in Europe no matter what country they are in.
    I would just offer the R word explanation, but since politics is taboo on the forums, I suggest you consider reading more about the american system of government.
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2013-12-31 09:20
    Can a resident of Finland effect telecommunications policy in Greece? Suppose the residents of Finland vote in ways that encourage broadband rollout, but the residents of Greece don't? That is how the US works as a political entity. Culturally some states are radically different from each other as well. Massachusetts and Mississippi really are different countries both politically and culturally.

    It's further compound by the fact that this can only be reconciled at the Federal level and there are toxic relationships between the representatives. Think about the recent federal government shutdown as an example.
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2013-12-31 09:20
    In USA people that know how to install underground fiber optics are in a shortage, unlike Finland that have free college with courses aimed at what is good for the country (technical hand-on jobs).
    So the cost is probably double per mile in USA vs Europe, take for example the cost of the
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-12-31 13:19
    Jazzed,
    I suggest you consider reading more about the american system of government.
    I might pass on that, the net is full of D vs R debate we all have to skip over already:)

    Martin,
    Can a resident of Finland effect telecommunications policy in Greece?
    Exactly. Countries in Europe can't tell each other what to do, except via whatever machinations go on in Brussels. States in America can't tell each other what to do. Still we all have a decent network and you don't.

    So, I still don't see what the hold up is.

    As someone who has never been to the USA and only follows what goes on from the news and the odd documentary I'm kind of worried about you guys. Never mind the lack of internet, that's just another symptom. What I get here is that your infrastructure is old and falling apart, dams, bridges etc. Education is appalling. Healthcare is a shambles, The government can't even pay it's civil servants. That's before we get on to the failure of the banks and the auto industry. And now the NSA is doing a good job of encouraging the world to move away from USA based software and "cloud" services whilst at the same time consuming piles of cash that could arguably used to do something more useful, like subsidising network roll out, say.

    This impression could all be far removed from reality but its seems as if the whole place is collapsing.
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2013-12-31 13:33
    The hold up is due to the US relying on market forces alone to supply basic infrastructure. And broadband is basic infrastructure just as the telephone was.

    And that isn't a partisan thing, though we do have one party who has a very high degree of unity on that position with the other having a solid percentage of it's members joining in. That does open the door a crack, but it's not significant right now IMHO. Interestingly, it's not just "those guys in government" in that we as people appear to be of similar mind. Nobody really talks much about that right now though. And we really should too.

    Edit: And Ken holding the line on that kind of discussion here is wise. It's wise because a whole lot of us simply can't talk. Hate to say it, but it's true. I do engage politics elsewhere and it is extremely painful in nearly all venues. This worries me. I think it worries alot of us, but yet we still can't talk reasonably where the discussion crosses some purity line or other and there are a LOT of purity lines, fault lines, if you will.

    IMHO, the optimal scenario is a public private mix, like France is currently doing. In dense areas, have private companies do it because competition and the overall density of people make a for profit effort viable. In rural areas of moderate density, couple that with public efforts and for sparse population areas, use the public or nearly completely subsidize the service. And that sort of equation has worked well here multiple times, but is currently off the table.

    The basic problem with employing market forces is the nature of infrastructure. It's not realistic to expect meaningful competition when the rights of way are basically set and or spectrum in the case of 4G, etc... is limited. Some degree of cooperation is needed to maximize the service for everybody and that runs in conflict with the profit motive, and so here we are struggling with it. Some companies appear to understand having robust service for everybody makes for a much more vibrant and profitable digital marketplace. Again, as France as realized. So they are making investments where they can do so and at least break even on it. But, that's only a partial solution at best.

    I just got fiber Internet and it's insane fast. Having been in the slow lane since DSL was cool in the 90's, I'm frankly stunned at what real broadband does. And I've got a reasonable price by global standards too. Few of us have that option right now.

    Funny thing about that. I could have lived just a few blocks away from where I am now and would be stuck with either dialup, cable or long distance wi-fi services, which are popular here in rural areas.

    I'm a bit worried too. Somewhere, we've gotten off track with basic priorities and it looks to me like we won't be getting back on track for a while yet. As the pain grows, perhaps that will change.

    And the priority needs to be making things better. Lots of ways to do that too. The need for purity in an ideological sense currently trumps making things better in a very large number of instances where we need policy to advance the state of things for everybody.

    Our politics right now are really crappy. Seriously. But we are a freedom loving bunch, and this is going to have to work out as it works out. I suspect it will be awful painful too. Maybe it has to be.

    A whole lot of us have our heads down working on the work we can do, living the lives we can live, just sort of powering through right now. Could be worse!
  • MicksterMickster Posts: 2,694
    edited 2013-12-31 14:16
    All sounds a bit odd.....seems to me that give the powers that be an opportunity to stick more commercials in front of your face (in US) and they go to all lengths.

    Up until recently, I owned a place in the middle of nowhere in Michigan. House sat in 35 acres. Could not get city water so I had a well and we had to have a septic tank...BUT, I had Comcast installed as soon as I moved in back in 2002! Internet/cable/phone, no problem.

    I'm sure I only had electricity because it was above ground with those awful, ugly step-down transformers on poles.
  • xanaduxanadu Posts: 3,347
    edited 2013-12-31 15:22
    From a network engineering standpoint this article is ridiculous.
  • Peter KG6LSEPeter KG6LSE Posts: 1,383
    edited 2013-12-31 15:44
    tonyp12 wrote: »
    In USA people that know how to install underground fiber optics are in a shortage, unlike Finland that have free college with courses aimed at what is good for the country (technical hand-on jobs).
    So the cost is probably double per mile in USA vs Europe, take for example the cost of the
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-12-31 16:31
    Jazzed,

    Interesting pictures. Not quite what I had in mind though. The Tacoma Narrows Bridge was a new thing that happened not to work out for unforeseen reasons. The World Trade Centre was, well totally unprecedented.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2013-12-31 16:38
    Heater. wrote: »
    Jazzed,

    Interesting pictures. Not quite what I had in mind though. The Tacoma Narrows Bridge was a new thing that happened not to work out for unforeseen reasons. The World Trade Centre was, well totally unprecedented.
    The point is that most collapsing is either caused by nature or by intent. Things you cited were from documentaries and other hollywood things which were made solely for profit. Of course there are problems, but they get fixed by "the free market" and the "magic hand" of destruction if nothing else.

    If you listen to disaster and apocalypse fear mongers (like something recently posted here), you'll be rattled all the time and someone else will benefit. Life goes on well past Dec 12, 2012 and Zombie invasions :)
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-12-31 17:01
    Jazzed,

    Are you taking my "collapsing" too literally? I mean it in terms of civilization as much as material stuff.

    Are you telling me not to worry because actually the banking system did not fail, the auto industry is OK, health care is good, the people are getting a good education, New Orleans is not a disaster area, the USA does not have the biggest prison population (percentage wise) in the world, the NSA has not undermined world confidence in the USA, etc etc etc,

    On the topic of education, sitting in the middle I do worry about a major power in the west where 30 percent, and increasing, of the population reject the evolution and believe man has been like he is since the beginning of time whilst in the east more than fifty percent or the population think Stalin was a good guy!

    This is scary stuff.

    I would tend to go with the Adam Smith's hidden hand of free market forces. If that is, consumers had perfect information. which they don't, and producers did not have the law in their pockets.

    Perhaps we should wind this up before the political debate explodes.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2013-12-31 17:15
    Enjoy Heater.

    Hope the New Year brings you greater prosperity wheresoever you seek it.

    --Steve


    P.S. This was one of my favorite train wreck pictures:


    19thomas-600.jpg
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2013-12-31 17:38
    The figures are distorted anyway because they represent those with landlines.

    I don't have a landline (and I am not alone). I use cellular and 3G/4G for data. It cost more but the speeds are nice, and I get this almost anywhere except of the beaten track.

    IMHO, the fibre being rolled out here in Oz should only be to end of street, and delivered to homes, etc by wireless - the old analog tv frequencies are available worldwide now (find the common frequencies) and use them for better WiFi (I have seen this is being experimented with already).
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2013-12-31 18:02
    Heater, be careful believing news reports about a place you haven't been. The news media has a vested interest in pushing the panic button because it moves their product. If you came to southern New England you would find roads in good shape and a top notch fiber optic network in spite of reports of a zombie apocalypse in the nation as a whole.
  • softconsoftcon Posts: 217
    edited 2013-12-31 18:21
    Part of the problem here in the U.S. is the fact that in theory, monopolies are forbidden, However, in practice, nothing could be farther from the truth. I've lived in several states and visited even more, and almost every single place I've lived, and many places I've visited all have a single phone company to handle local service, thereby giving you no choice at all if you wanted phone service. Luckily, internet providers don't seem to have this problem. Everywhere I've lived, there has been multiple isps to choose from, and I even provided services myself for a while. That tells me that it's considerably to get into internet service providing than it is to get into phone services, although when I lived in Delaware for atime, I was an authorized reseller of the local phone lines there too, but that just meant we bought service from the actual provider at wholesale rates, then resold them to our customers. That's the only time I'd actually had a choice in who to use for local phone service, and (as it turned out) that wasn't for long, after a couple years, the company selling us their infrastructure use bailed on us, and there was much nashing of teeth, and many threats of law suits, and even an attempt at a class action suit. I don't know how it all worked out financially, but I do know, that afterwords, it was back to a single choice if you wanted local phone service. These days, local phones aren't as necessary as they used to be, what with cell services, and internet phone services cropping up everywhere, but the point still remains that internet is relatively easy to get into, while other utility services such as electric, phone, and water are nearly impossible. So, I'd say that at least partly, the whole private enterprise thing is working for internet services, which is what generally folks are griping about, while other services are being neglected on a grand scale, and nobody seems to care. Decent internet speeds are available almost anywhere, though admittedly, there are places where dial-up is still the main internet access method, and it seems that most folks these days forget that when designing their fancy web sites with megs and megs of graphics just to load the front page. I guess the whole point of this ramble is that while the us doesn't have highspeed everywhere just yet, it's getting there a lot faster than most other utility type services are progressing, and I think that's a good thing. (for internet access anyway) Not so much for the other stuff. :)
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