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Radioactive M&M Sorter? — Parallax Forums

Radioactive M&M Sorter?

ercoerco Posts: 20,256
edited 2014-01-29 15:22 in General Discussion
Well, sort of, maybe, eventually. For Christmas, my brother gave me this Cheney/Goldmine Geiger Counter kit: http://www.electronickitsbychaneyelectronics.com/prodinfo.asp?number=C6986

I'll build it up, and then I'll need to get some radioactive material to sample: various ores, radium watches and such. There's a whole discussion thread there. NSA, radioactive materials in the home, etc.

But I can already see that novelty wearing off. Somewhere in the near future I'll absolutely need to build a radiation-detecting robot. Either like PhiPi's M&M sorter (test rock chunks going past, and sort according to radioactivity) or a Chernobyl-style BoeBot that finds and disposes of radioactive rocks. Should be cool, even if it takes a year off my life.

Anyone have any experience or recommendations about storing & handling such materials? Or has someone already done what I have described?
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Comments

  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2013-12-26 12:56
    erco wrote: »
    Well, sort of, maybe, eventually. For Christmas, my brother gave me this Cheney/Goldmine Geiger Counter kit: http://www.electronickitsbychaneyelectronics.com/prodinfo.asp?number=C6986

    I'll build it up, and then I'll need to get some radioactive material to sample: various ores, radium watches and such. There's a whole discussion thread there. NSA, radioactive materials in the home, etc.

    But I can already see that novelty wearing off. Somewhere in the near future I'll absolutely need to build a radiation-detecting robot. Either like PhiPi's M&M sorter (test rock chunks going past, and sort according to radioactivity) or a Chernobyl-style BoeBot that finds and disposes of radioactive rocks. Should be cool, even if it takes a year off my life.

    Anyone have any experience or recommendations about storing & handling such materials? Or has someone already done what I have described?

    Well, my Mom just went through nuclear stress test and has Tc low energy Gamma radiation. It has a half life of 6 hours. If you can book a fight fast, we may be able to do some testing.

    (I have a letter from the the doctor stating to the TSA that she is not a terrorist) :)
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2013-12-26 15:28
    Low level emitters don't require any particular care. Don't turn them into jewelry and wear them all the time. My father was a nuclear physicist, and X-ray and gamma sources considerably more powerful than anything you're likely to get hold of were kept in an ordinary lab cabinet.
  • BeanBean Posts: 8,129
    edited 2013-12-26 17:19
    In the past I have torn apart a smoke detector to get a sample.
    I think it gives off mainly alpha radiation and a small amount of beta radiation.

    Bean
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-12-26 17:23
    Bean wrote: »
    In the past I have torn apart a smoke detector to get a sample.

    Good call. Americium the Beautiful... :)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americium#Ionization_detectors
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2013-12-26 18:47
    Nice kit, but by the look of the replacement GM tube (and the description), it's not sensitive to alpha particles. Therefore the Americium in a smoke detector will not register, or only barely, due to the weak beta also emitted.

    Tubes that are sensitive to alpha particles have a thin mica window on the end. A fully-walled aluminum tube will only pass beta and gamma -- and maybe delta radiation if you get too close to a Cochran warp core. You could probably replace the tube with a small alpha/beta/gamma model from eBay. The specs for these things are usually similar.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-12-26 18:54
    GordonMcComb wrote: »
    -- and maybe delta radiation if you get too close to a Cochran warp core.

    It was part of my ultimate plan to make First Contact...

    Great info as always, Gordon. Thanks! I just saw someone gouging this kit on Ebay for $153... fifteen sold! One born every minute.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-New-C6986-Micro-Geiger-Counter-Kit-/180640092085
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2013-12-26 19:36
    Don't scare me like this! I thought there were problems with the safety of the national M&M supply!!!
  • Too_Many_ToolsToo_Many_Tools Posts: 765
    edited 2013-12-26 21:07
    erco wrote: »
    Well, sort of, maybe, eventually. For Christmas, my brother gave me this Cheney/Goldmine Geiger Counter kit: http://www.electronickitsbychaneyelectronics.com/prodinfo.asp?number=C6986

    I'll build it up, and then I'll need to get some radioactive material to sample: various ores, radium watches and such. There's a whole discussion thread there. NSA, radioactive materials in the home, etc.

    But I can already see that novelty wearing off. Somewhere in the near future I'll absolutely need to build a radiation-detecting robot. Either like PhiPi's M&M sorter (test rock chunks going past, and sort according to radioactivity) or a Chernobyl-style BoeBot that finds and disposes of radioactive rocks. Should be cool, even if it takes a year off my life.

    Anyone have any experience or recommendations about storing & handling such materials? Or has someone already done what I have described?

    Put in a model rocket and log the increase of radioactivity in respect to atitude...great science project.

    Be sure to include an entire complement of Parallax sensors for logging lots of stuff.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2013-12-27 03:55
    And for your next project... I hear that bananas are actually a bit radioactive.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_equivalent_dose
  • PliersPliers Posts: 280
    edited 2013-12-27 06:34
    I have bought Isotopes from this place in the past. I see the prices have gone up considerably.
    http://www.unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2_5
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2013-12-27 07:17
    One might try a pawn shop for the radium content in watch faces and hands.
  • RDL2004RDL2004 Posts: 2,554
    edited 2013-12-27 07:58
    Radium? Best try antique shop instead of a pawnshop. I think Radium usage in radioluminescent paint was phased out about 50 years ago. Isn't Tritium what they use these days?
  • al1970al1970 Posts: 64
    edited 2013-12-27 11:17
    Hi:

    Is it taking a year off of your life because that's how long it is going to take to build the robot or because of the radiation ):

    Isn't coal a little radioactive? Maybe I could send you some; I got a lot for Christmas.
  • CuriousOneCuriousOne Posts: 931
    edited 2013-12-27 11:21
    The simplest and safest to handle and store might be some glassware made from uranium glass. It won't do any harm to you, but still will allow to check sensors/etc.
  • Peter KG6LSEPeter KG6LSE Posts: 1,383
    edited 2013-12-27 11:54
    >>>>> http://peterthethinker.com/ENG/GEIGER/GEIGER.html

    Sadly I need a new tube as mine got mangled in the move to oregon .........

    Wow
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_battery
    In 1954 RCA researched a small atomic battery for small radio receivers and hearing aids.
    whisky tango hotel . .... in my ear near my brannnnn . no thank!
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-12-27 21:59
    Radium watches are still radioactive long after their glow in the dark properties fade: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radium_dials

    Turns out there are lots of natural radioactive ore samples for sale on Ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Uranium-ore-uraninite-fluorescent-mineral-17-4g-0-61oz-Emery-County-Utah-/121240788986
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2013-12-28 07:51
    You really need to buy your samples from Amazon, where the reviews are more fun than messing with your geiger counter.

    "So glad I don't have to buy this from Libyans in parking lots at the mall anymore."

    "Haikuranium! -- Bright glowing molars / Hair falling out in bundles / Uranium Ore! / Tokyo in fear / Big lizard rises from sea / Uranium Ore!"

    "I thought I was ordering Uranium 235. This stuff is not fissionable and not at all appropriate for building a death ray or small nuclear reactor."

    http://www.amazon.com/Images-SI-Inc-Uranium-Ore/dp/B000796XXM

    Seller is Images Co, which is run by fellow author John Iovine.

    Yes, a bit ore expensive than stuff on eBay, but humor is no longer free.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2013-12-28 09:18
    U239 is the really good stuff. It is used to power electrical fuel cells for space ships.

    One can get uranium from pottery glaze suppliers. It is needed to get a stable orange color in high fire ceramics. Without uranium, there wouldn't be any orange stoneware pottery.
  • RDL2004RDL2004 Posts: 2,554
    edited 2013-12-28 12:29
    U239 is the really good stuff. It is used to power electrical fuel cells for space ships.

    Huh?

    A fuel cell is an electrochemical device. Did you mean Pu-238 and radioisotope thermoelectric generator (RTG)?
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2013-12-28 12:33
    Loopy Byteloose wrote: »
    U239 is the really good stuff. It is used to power electrical fuel cells for space ships.

    Only use dilithium crystals over here.
  • tritoniumtritonium Posts: 543
    edited 2013-12-28 16:08
    In the UK radio-active radon gas emitted from the granite walls of cottages is a concern for some!

    Do you have a granite kitchen worktop? http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/garden/24granite.html?_r=0


    Dave
  • User NameUser Name Posts: 1,451
    edited 2013-12-28 17:16
    erco wrote: »
    Turns out there are lots of natural radioactive ore samples for sale on Ebay.

    A company back home used to make radioactive concrete out of naturally occurring radioactive aggregates. With it they set steel poles in the ground. The Geiger-Mueller tubes atop the poles were used to measure water content of the mountain snowpack in strategically selected locations.

    Anyway, all sorts of lantern mantles are still made with radioactive thorium - not Coleman mantles of course - but many others. The mantle for my Aladdin lamp is just about the best passive radiation source I own - far better than a chunk of potassium chloride. And a chunk of potassium chloride is far better than a banana.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2014-01-03 19:12
    Yay! I received my first radioactive rock sample today! Now I really have to build that Geiger counter.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/121240788986
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2014-01-04 15:51
    I put my GC kit together today. Working here with the little uraninite ore sample from Ebay. I guess to get that dramatic continuous clicking the Hollywood movies show I better find me some REAL uranium... :) JK, NSA, JK.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2014-01-04 20:36
    For dramatic ticking use the Americium source from an old smoke detector.

    Oops, your GM tube is gamma and beta only. Sorry. Time to upgrade!
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2014-01-04 20:47
    GordonMcComb wrote: »
    Time to upgrade!

    But that would rude, this was a gift! It would be more polite to buy stronger Uranium from Libyans in the parking lot of Twin Pines Mall.
  • max72max72 Posts: 1,155
    edited 2014-01-05 15:04
    If you can get lanterna mantles they offer a quite satisfactory rate.
    You can try to increase the counting piling them up. Self absorption is not an critical issue (with beta emitter like potassium chloride you rapidly reach a limit due to self absorpion, and beta are weaker, so you need a thin window)
    about safety: A protection mantra is alara (as low as reasonably achievable). So use your samples in areated areas, store them in a safe place away from the twins, use distance as shielding, and avoid getting to critical mass when working with enriched uranium..
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2014-01-06 09:47
    Good call, max. I ordered these right after Christmas: http://www.ebay.com/itm/321126348463#ht_4874wt_1147
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2014-01-22 11:01
    My quest for radioactive samples continues. Now I need some vintage orange Fiestaware plates & bowls, which had uranium in the glaze. Who knew? Perhaps fruit kept in such a bowl never went bad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiesta_(dinnerware)

    Radioactive Glazes

    Brilliant red Fiesta (and indeed the red glazes produced by all U.S. potteries of the era) is known for having a detectable amount of uranium oxide in its glaze, which produced the orange-red color. During WWII, the government took control of uranium for development of the atom bomb, and confiscated the company's stocks.[4] Homer Laughlin discontinued Fiesta red in 1944. The company reintroduced Fiesta red in 1959 using depleted uranium (rather than the original natural uranium), after the Atomic Energy Commission relaxed its restrictions on uranium oxide.

    Red is not the only color of vintage ceramic glaze that is radioactive; it is detectable from other colors, including ivory.[5] The level of radioactivity of vintage fiestaware has been published and is available online.[5][6]

    The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency warns consumers not to use radioactive glazed ceramics for food or drink use.[7] Others recommend against using such pieces for food storage due to the possibility of leaching of uranium or other heavy metals (often present in some colored glazes) into food, especially acidic foods.

    More at http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/nuclear/nucbuy.html
  • User NameUser Name Posts: 1,451
    edited 2014-01-29 13:32
    I was thinking about max72's comment (that the beta particles produced by potassium decay can be absorbed in the same chunk of potassium chloride that produced them) while cleaning out the Scan stove today. Recalling that wood ash is mostly potassium carbonate, I decided to wrap my Geiger counter in plastic and bury it in (cold) ash. Sure enough, it clicked at a higher rate than it does when a block of KCl is placed nearby.

    Perhaps I could fund my Propeller habit by packaging ash in little ziplock bags and selling them on eBay. :-)
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