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Funduino or Fanta? — Parallax Forums

Funduino or Fanta?

ercoerco Posts: 20,256
edited 2013-11-16 10:01 in General Discussion
Disclaimer: This is most certainly NOT a plug, just news to me that prices are falling "out there".

For under $10, this clone sure puts Ardy in the commodities market: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Uno-Development-Board-Arduino-compatible-Free-USB-Cable-Funduino-Logo-/261195307560?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cd0741a28#ht_10000wt_976

Free cable, free ship! Ah, the economies of scale.

Decisions, decisions. A burger or a board? A pepsi or a processor? Arby's or Ard... I just can't say it.

First prices plummeted on ultrasonic sensors, then stepper motors, now this. If only I wanted one.

Comments

  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-11-12 21:14
    That "under $10" looks almost exactly like $20 to me.

    I don't want one either.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-11-12 21:29
    Hey, honest, it was $9.55 or such when I posted.

    Now it IS $20. Are Funduino futures on the rise?
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-11-12 21:31
    OK, here's a Leonardo for $9.99 so you know it really was. Only 3 available though, maybe I missed that loophole last time.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Leonardo-R3-ATMEGA32U4-module-Arduino-Compatible-free-USB-cable-/200980815565?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ecb63decd
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,392
    edited 2013-11-12 22:01
    Erco, you're dead-on with your analysis. In the Chinese component markets I visit I've seen Arduino 100% copies for 60 RMB (ten bucks). You really can't tell the difference.

    What you're pointing out here is a massive leveling of the playing field. The Chinese have caught on to the direct-sale of electronic parts to American and Europe. Distributors of anything that resembles an electronic commodity are under severe pressure with revenue dropping. If there's no real core intellectual property, they'll be in trouble quickly and I'm sure they're already feeling the changes.

    As for the copying aspect, it's a losing battle. Once you've been cloned there are two of you.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-11-12 23:29
    In case anyone reading this thread is thinking "Bad Chinese, cloning and copying everything..." I would like to point out that in this case they are quite within their rights to make such Arduino like boards.

    The Arduino is an open source hardware design. At least as far as the board schematic and layout. So there is nothing underhand going on here.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2013-11-13 10:31
    $9.95 originally to create buzz and a sale record; $19.95 regular price, but it's too high. Going rate for unofficial boards is around $14, and a typical price for an authetic 2011 (non-R3) Uno is $19 or $20. They are desirable because of their DIP AVR.

    $9.95 for an authentic Leonardo is about right, new or used.

    Heater is right: "cloning" doesn't apply to open hardware, where someone creates a reference design for the express purpose of duplicating. That said, I'm not sure the Arduino folks were quite prepared for the steep undercutting we're now seeing.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2013-11-13 10:38
    Ken Gracey wrote: »
    Once you've been cloned there are two of you.

    OMG! *Two* Ercos?? Let's hope they never perfect cloning.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-11-13 11:06
    I've always puzzled about this. If some device could clone me, atom for atom, and perhaps whilst I was a sleep then on meeting my clone I would have no way to tell if I was me, the original, or the clone.

    The clone would presumably think he was me. Until he met me of course.

    This thought is very disturbing.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2013-11-13 11:26
    Heater. wrote: »
    I've always puzzled about this. If some device could clone me, atom for atom, and perhaps whilst I was a sleep then on meeting my clone I would have no way to tell if I was me, the original, or the clone.

    The clone would presumably think he was me. Until he met me of course.

    This thought is very disturbing.
    Like The Body Snatchers snatched by Body Snatchers also snatched by Invasion of the Body Snatchers ....

    (No, Wikipedia like any other Encyclopedia is not the end point of serious research.)

    Hmm, Erco-snatched does seem disturbing.
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,392
    edited 2013-11-13 16:25
    Heater. wrote: »
    In case anyone reading this thread is thinking "Bad Chinese, cloning and copying everything..." I would like to point out that in this case they are quite within their rights to make such Arduino like boards.

    The Arduino is an open source hardware design. At least as far as the board schematic and layout. So there is nothing underhand going on here.

    It's my understanding that if it's a 100% copy like I've seen in China that royalties should be paid to Arduino.
  • Oldbitcollector (Jeff)Oldbitcollector (Jeff) Posts: 8,091
    edited 2013-11-13 17:15
    Ken Gracey wrote: »
    It's my understanding that if it's a 100% copy like I've seen in China that royalties should be paid to Arduino.

    Isn't "Open-Source Electronics Prototypign Platform" (which is printed on the bottom of my Ardunio UNO) pretty much a release to allow anyone to make/see a clone of the product?

    Ken, all you need now is for China to mass produce (in the millions) Quickstart boards, which will naturally require actual Propeller Chips.

    Jeff
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-11-13 18:14
    Ardy's nod to the Stamp, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arduino

    History[edit]

    Arduino started in 2005 as a project for students at the Interaction Design Institute Ivrea in Ivrea, Italy. At that time program students used a "BASIC Stamp" at a cost of $100, considered expensive for students. Massimo Banzi, one of the founders, taught at Ivrea.[2]
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2013-11-13 19:43
    This thought is very disturbing.
    Indeed.
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,392
    edited 2013-11-13 20:45
    Oldbitcollector (Jeff) wrote: »
    Isn't "Open-Source Electronics Prototypign Platform" (which is printed on the bottom of my Ardunio UNO) pretty much a release to allow anyone to make/see a clone of the product?

    Jeff

    Well, if you want to be legitimate then I'd assume you'd follow this http://arduino.cc/en/ArduinoAtHeart/HomePage and pay them something (5%?). The copies I've seen in China are dead-on 100% - only Massimo would be able to tell the difference along with handful of other Arduino or fabrication experts. Seems that a 100% copy would need to follow the Arduino licensing agreements to support software development.

    As for Propeller boards, there's no restriction.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-11-13 21:04
    Ken,

    From the Arduino FAQ page "Can I build a commercial product based on Arduino?...Yes ... restrictions"

    The "restrictions" are all about the requirements of the various open source licenses which are nothing to do with paying royalties and such but on providing the source files, for hard ware and software, of your product. There is no need to even ask Arduino for permission to do this.

    BUT. There are of course branding and trade mark issues which are something else. I'm sure sticking the Arduino name and/or logo on your product is not allowed without permission. Hence the "Arduino at heart" scheme.

    The board under discussion here does not use the Arduino logo but it's name is similar enough that perhaps a trade mark lawyer would say it could cause "product confusion". A bit of a grey area.

    Then those 100% copies, name logo and all, are overstepping the mark.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2013-11-13 21:22
    Ken, In reading the Heart page, it looks like it's a branding benefit for those adding something to the Arduino universe, as they say exact clones are excluded from participating. Though I haven't looked at this too closely, my understanding is that given the terms of the open license they use, they cannot prevent anyone from making an exact copy (sans trademarks), and can't require royalties.

    Heater, I seem to recall the Arduino group admit they could do nothing about the 'duino suffix. Many other boards use it without apparent conflict -- Boarduino, Freeduino, etc. It would be disingenuous to declare Funduino is infringing. Something like Arbuino would be, because that's obviously designed to confuse. Reminds me of the recording tape clones in the early 1970s with names like Suny and BSAF.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-11-13 21:50
    GordonMcComb wrote: »
    Reminds me of the recording tape clones in the early 1970s with names like Suny and BSAF.

    Or the new clones of already non-prime Chinese Li-Ion cells, like these UitraFlre cells (not ULTRAFIRE, but UITRAFLRE). I've gotten some of these, they leak and decay quickly.

    http://laserpointerforums.com/f67/fake-ultrafires-uitraflres-74018.html#!/exjun_
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-11-13 21:52
    I have no idea how application of trademark law would work out. No body does til a case goes to court. I'm sure if we started selling smart phones and tablets with rounded corners under the brand name "Dapple" or some such we would be in a world of pain.

    I'm a bit disturbed by the naming of the "Espruino". A wonderful little board that has nothing at all in common with the Arduino hardware or software wise. It does not even try to be similar. It runs JavaScript.

    Still I'm sure the "..uino" was a hook that grabbed attention and managed to get the thing funded on KickStarter.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-11-16 09:23
    The Dollar menu is at the bottom: http://www.banggood.com/Arduino-Leonardo-R3-ATmega32U4-Development-Board-With-USB-Cable-p-906441.html?utm_design=12&utm_source=emailvision

    Want to supersize that?
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-11-16 09:35
    What an excellent domain name.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2013-11-16 10:01
    GordonMcComb wrote: »
    OMG! *Two* Ercos?? Let's hope they never perfect cloning.

    It could get worse... two Heaters, two Loopys... and so on.

    In some ways, the huge cloning of the Arduinos is creating an electronics hobby market in China. They are curious folk and love complexity that take time to master. I hope the trend will evolve into more demand for the Propeller.

    Finally after 10 or so years of fooling with microcontrollers, I can buy some up-to-date stuff locally in retail shops.
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