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P2 part number and name — Parallax Forums

P2 part number and name

Peter JakackiPeter Jakacki Posts: 10,193
edited 2013-09-05 15:09 in Propeller 2
I know there has already been quite a bit of discussion about this matter but I am trying to distinguish my products and even my new Tachyon for P2 but somehow the "C' variant does not stand out at all. Chip, are you really serious about this part number???

The P2 is a very different chip just as the 80286 was a very different chip from the 8086, can you imagine if the 80286 was called 8086C? Oh, it's a die revision of the 8086 so it should be pin compatible etc etc. No, of course not, it inherits it's architecture from the 8086 but it is very much different at the same time.

At present this is the convention:
P8X32A = Propeller (original)
P8X32B = Propeller B variant with 64 I/O (otherwise identical)
P8X32C = Propeller C variant with ????

Shouldn't this be:
P8X32A = Propeller (original)
P8X32A-64 = Propeller with 64 I/O

And since P2 has 8 cores of 32-bits each it should still have the 8X32 perhaps but it will need more than a simple suffix to distinguish it. I know I have mentioned using FX instead of X and F within a number normally means Flash although that is not hard and fast.
P28X32 - P2 with 8 cores of 32-bits.
P8FX32
P8FX32-96
or just maybe
P8SX32A which avoids the F perhaps being interpreted as Flash and instead harks back to Parallax's roots with the SX chip.

As for the popular name I think P2 for short is good enough and identifiable but writing that as P II with Roman numerals in MMXIII is just plain confusing and you may as well call it Impellerator II if you must stick to Latin, otherwise just say P2.

This may be my two cents worth but I hope it's a very vocal two cents worth.
«1

Comments

  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2013-09-02 18:55
    How about:

    P2-8x4-A

    Where

    - P2 is the family
    - 8x4 stands for (cores)x(threads per core)
    - A is first revision, means 126K ram, 92 I/O

    This allows for new families, designated by Pn (n>2)

    Allows for more cores, more threads per core

    Allows for different suffixes, for different amount of ram and I/O

    P2A8x4 would also work.
  • ozpropdevozpropdev Posts: 2,792
    edited 2013-09-02 19:07
    What about

    P2-32X32A

    32 threads and 32 bits
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2013-09-02 19:39
    Just in case this is a contest to see who can come up with the longest most complete designation.

    P2-8X32-???-4T-96IO-128K

    P2, 8 cores, 32 bits, ??? some additional cog memory, 4 threads per core, 96 I/O pins, 128K hub ram.
  • whickerwhicker Posts: 749
    edited 2013-09-02 19:49
    P8X96A

    or

    P28X96A

    or

    P208X96A
  • Peter JakackiPeter Jakacki Posts: 10,193
    edited 2013-09-02 19:50
    Just to clarify, I'm not really after a comprehensive number just a distinguishing yet identifiable part number. I find part numbers with multiple suffixes and infixes are a mouthful but normally you can never remember them properly.
    A simple prefix+number+infix+number+suffix will do. P 8 SX 32 A which becomes P8SX32A or P2 for short.
  • rjo__rjo__ Posts: 2,114
    edited 2013-09-02 20:18
    I can't believe the fuss. I suggest P2GAL. http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/24/world/europe/uk-royal-baby
    Or if we must have a geeky name: P2x8M-96A...Propeller 2, 8 cores (multi-threaded), 96 io...A, because I don't believe Chip can resist making some "minor" modifications:)

    For business reasons, I think Chip might have the right name. But if the question is still "open" and there is a contest brewing...
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,171
    edited 2013-09-02 21:31
    I
    P8SX32A which avoids the F perhaps being interpreted as Flash and instead harks back to Parallax's roots with the SX chip.

    Those lose the common substring match, which means web part suppliers, will not show P2 to new users.

    I think Chip had the right idea with the common starting of P8X32, whcih becomes like C8051F, AT89LP, PIC16F, PIC18F

    - type any of those into www.findchips.com, and see what happens.

    The problem we agree on is the suffix 'C' is too close to the industry norm of a die revision, and whilst you could claim it is a (very large) 'revision', it certainly is not compatible, and Procurement managers and sales staff will make mistakes here.

    Personally I like the T or MT for threaded / multi threaded, and the next number can be either IO count, or pin count.
    As the P2 is thus far only in 128 pins, it is ok to make that part of the core part. Other micros have code-size as part of the core part, as that varies.

    On the topic of packages, one recent trend I've seen mainly from Asia, is to offer coarser pitch parts, where they take a 100 pin 0.5mm size, and offer that in 64 pin 0.8mm for much lower cost assembly.

    I'm not sure how many usable IO would result, but it should be quite low cost to bond a P2 die into one of these leadframes, and
    test it.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-09-02 21:31
  • Peter JakackiPeter Jakacki Posts: 10,193
    edited 2013-09-02 21:49
    Heater. wrote: »

    What! no heaters? How about a P6BX8 in an "octal socket", now that sounds more like your good stuff like a a 6BA7 and suchlike. 1.8V for the core, 3.3V for the I/O, and 6.3V to keep it warmed up.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-09-02 23:00
    Peter,
    6.3V to keep it warmed up.
    I love it.

    I think we would have to go with a triode designed for computers, the 5963 for example:
    http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa1157.htm

    I wonder how many of those we need to build a Prop II?
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2013-09-03 00:24
    Put "filament voltage" on the data sheet in there somewhere, just because. Watch the "WTF?!?" comments come rolling in... then again, not!

    I think the part number needs to be plain and simple, and I've already mentioned "C" works for me. After reading all the part number suggestions, this just kills me! It kills me like when I see people doing product data management with filenames... (scary thoughts)

    How about common, human type names?

    The P1 was known as Pnut. I can't remember, was it ever known as anything else? Maybe it can just get named now.

    The P2, should be known as something. So there are the part numbers, and then there are the names. Really great names are catchy, and they can fit right into one of those spec columns nicely, or be an extension to the bland part number.

    XXXXX - Pnut
    XXXXX - Spanky
    XXXXX - Enduro

    Whatever. No, those names are not in any way serious. Just there to communicate the idea.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-09-03 00:44
    To paraphrase Harry Enfield:

    "Oi, you seen my new chip? I got a new Parallax Propeller II GTi Turbo Nutter Bastard"

    Sorry about the language but it's the only way to do it.
  • jac_goudsmitjac_goudsmit Posts: 418
    edited 2013-09-03 05:32
    I vote for P8X96A.

    I would also suggest a more distinguishable name than "Propeller 2". The name "Propeller" is already so overloaded that it's hard to find related web pages sometimes. It would be better if this thing would get a totally new name that's not used anywhere else, i.e. doesn't have to compete on Google with thousands of other web pages about propellers..

    Maybe Parallax should do a contest so people can submit names and win something like a P2 from the first production batch?

    ===Jac

    Edit: PS: I think there should also be a new logo for the P2; I think the photos of the die in the other thread kinda remind of a hand windmill so maybe that would be an interesting source of inspiration? Random stock picture of hand windmill here, to show what I'm talking about: http://www.stockpodium.com/en/image-photo-7689049/Hand-made-windmill-toy-cut-out-from-one-hundred-usd-banknote-1007_09/
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2013-09-03 14:07
    @Heater, that sounds like a great rock band name. Point well and fully made too.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2013-09-03 14:56
    "Archimedes" is a fair name.

    "Archimedes Screw" probably wouldn't work though if you consider search results ....
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2013-09-03 15:25
    "Prometheus"
  • ozpropdevozpropdev Posts: 2,792
    edited 2013-09-03 15:40
    SATURN or ORBITER
    Because it will run rings around the opposition!
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2013-09-03 15:44
    "Prometheus"

    That and "The Matrix" are regulars on HBO these days. ;-)
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2013-09-03 16:12
    Not on the Canadian watered-down HBO :(

    I did see the movie on "Movie Central" - not bad, not great.

    Reason I suggested it was "bringer of fire"
    jazzed wrote: »
    That and "The Matrix" are regulars on HBO these days. ;-)
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2013-09-03 17:46
    For the nick I suggest Turboprop. It's similar but different, starts with a different letter, and is much faster.

    I realize there is an attachement to the 8x32 part of the part name, but I really feel very strongly that XXXXXA and XXXXXC are not different enough to signify the large differences between the P1 and P2. I would suggest P8X128 or T8X128 or P/T8X128A, because there are now 4 32-bit ports even if they aren't all brought to the outside world. That also leaves the coast clear to call the P1B P8X64(rev) which seems appropriately different from both so that nobody will think they are minor revisions of each other.
  • edited 2013-09-03 22:49
    Maybe you should call it "The New Chip"
  • Peter JakackiPeter Jakacki Posts: 10,193
    edited 2013-09-03 23:23
    I'm still serious about a proper number for this chip but when it comes to names then I can be silly too so how about:
    • Octavius - indeed the August one of CPU chips
    • CoreOcto - Intel eat your heart out
    • BiQuadria - yes, two times four but sounds very Star Gate'ish
    • ChipSquad - since it's Chip's chip and since a squad can be 8

    More Part numbers possibilities:
    • P32SX32A since each of the 8 cores can run 4 threads that's 32 threads times 32-bits.
    • P2SX128A so that you can just say P2 for short but the S denotes "super" and combines with X to generate the familiar SX in a 128-pin package just as the SX series were named.
    • P8X32SX in keeping with the P8X32 convention but appending SX as Super eXtended and combining the familiar SX.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,171
    edited 2013-09-04 00:19
    [*]P8X32SX in keeping with the P8X32 convention but appending SX as Super eXtended and combining the familiar SX.

    ? SX ? surely you do not mean that long-since-defunct, tiny but power hungry silicon ?

    I doubt any of the potential new users for P2 even know what the SX was ?
    ( and if they did, they would only get confused by any SX badge )
  • koehlerkoehler Posts: 598
    edited 2013-09-04 00:55
    I can appreciate the humor, however at some point you want something memorable, that makes it clear that this is not your father's uC :0

    I think something retro, yet instantly recognizeable: V8
    V8-32b-4T-200

    Even if the Prop 2 naming is kept, having a part number that makes it clearly associated with a V8 engine can only pique interest, and have no possibility of being confused BOM-wise with the legacy P1.
    This would truely be an out of the box way of differentiating your product, and would certainly standout vs the normal reams of mumbo-jumbo concatentation of alphabet soup your average para search comes back with.

    Unlike many other Manf's, Parallax has few if any SKU's listed.
    Since there are no other SKU's to get confused with, why obfuscate it with yet another concatenation of characters that mean nothing to a potential newcomer?
    Anyone looking at the P2 for the first time in a para search isn't going to have read the official docs, and understand how to read some slick part number as the initiated would.
    Why not give it a gut-wrenchingly obvious and literal part number, that builds upon most people's innate knowledge?

    The object is not what 'we' want to see as a part number, its to help set a hook in a possible customer long enough for them to take the time to look at the data sheet, and help Parallax sell chips.
  • Peter JakackiPeter Jakacki Posts: 10,193
    edited 2013-09-04 07:43
    This C variant is a real problem, not on the bench or a hobby product, but in production volumes it really is. Having an assembly house procure P8X32C vs a P8X32A can be problematic as there are many devices with grades or minor variants that are identified simply by the suffix and while procurement will normally check this I can see big mistakes being made. I'm not happy at all with this number as it lacks clear and distinguishing identification and it's something that I will have to keep tabs on all the time. For instance I can get a quote back which looks suspiciously low and so I will have to check check check and check again that it's a C and not an A etc."Yes Mr J, we quote for genuine P8X32 chip, you are happy with quote? Please send us your order and payment"

    BTW, the basic part number should be simple and avoid multiple infix characters and symbols. P8X32A for the P1 is good and we want something just as good for the P2 without getting confused.
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2013-09-04 08:18
    How about

    T8X32

    Could stand for Turbo prop, or Threaded prop. This is nice and simple.

    Or

    P8T4X32

    Propeller, 8 Core, 4 Thread per core, 32 bit

    I think emphasizing the four threads per core would be a major marketing win.
  • ctwardellctwardell Posts: 1,716
    edited 2013-09-04 08:36
    I'm not to big on trying to fit a bunch of meaning into the name with respect the threading, i/o count, etc.

    How about this for something simple:

    Cogs "X" Bits "P" MajorNumber MinorNumber RevisionLetter

    The P1 in this scheme would be: 8X32P100

    The P2 would be: 8X32P200

    If it gets revised it would be: 8X32P200A, B, etc.

    The first 8 cog P2 variant would become: 8X32P201

    A 4 cog P2 variant might be: 4X32P200

    I realize Parallax isn't like Microchip or TI and won't be having hundreds of variants, but Ken did mention on another thread that the commercial clients want more incremental releases with less time between.

    C.W.
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2013-09-04 08:45
    P2-8x32c ?
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2013-09-04 18:58
    jmg wrote: »
    Those lose the common substring match, which means web part suppliers, will not show P2 to new users.

    I think Chip had the right idea with the common starting of P8X32, whcih becomes like C8051F, AT89LP, PIC16F, PIC18F

    - type any of those into www.findchips.com, and see what happens.

    The problem we agree on is the suffix 'C' is too close to the industry norm of a die revision, and whilst you could claim it is a (very large) 'revision', it certainly is not compatible, and Procurement managers and sales staff will make mistakes here.

    Personally I like the T or MT for threaded / multi threaded, and the next number can be either IO count, or pin count.
    As the P2 is thus far only in 128 pins, it is ok to make that part of the core part. Other micros have code-size as part of the core part, as that varies.

    On the topic of packages, one recent trend I've seen mainly from Asia, is to offer coarser pitch parts, where they take a 100 pin 0.5mm size, and offer that in 64 pin 0.8mm for much lower cost assembly.

    I'm not sure how many usable IO would result, but it should be quite low cost to bond a P2 die into one of these leadframes, and
    test it.

    While my previous naming suggestion was tongue in cheek, this one is....less so. I think jmg has a good point. Stick with the P8X32 prefix to aid in web and supplier searches, and use the T or MT suffix. With Propeller or Prop being used as the informal designation for the current chip perhaps the P2 logo could be an eight blade propeller and Turboprop used as it's informal designation.

    PS, I also like the idea of a lower pin count package. No idea what sort of chip failure modes will be common but perhaps chips that have part or all of one of the I/O ports fail could be used for a low pin count package. This was done for early ram and eprom chips that had errors in the upper or lower half of the memory. The high order address bit was then tied high or low as required.
  • Peter JakackiPeter Jakacki Posts: 10,193
    edited 2013-09-04 19:36
    kwinn wrote: »
    While my previous naming suggestion was tongue in cheek, this one is....less so. I think jmg has a good point. Stick with the P8X32 prefix to aid in web and supplier searches, and use the T or MT suffix. With Propeller or Prop being used as the informal designation for the current chip perhaps the P2 logo could be an eight blade propeller and Turboprop used as it's informal designation.

    PS, I also like the idea of a lower pin count package. No idea what sort of chip failure modes will be common but perhaps chips that have part or all of one of the I/O ports fail could be used for a low pin count package. This was done for early ram and eprom chips that had errors in the upper or lower half of the memory. The high order address bit was then tied high or low as required.

    A simple suffix is insufficient to distinguish a completely different chip and package. No, we need this as an infix as I would imagine the prefix is "Parallax" and should remain so. Hypens and slashes should be avoided althogether so how about a simple P28X32C so you pronounce that as P2 8X 32 C.

    Sorting out defective I/O is fine but you can only use a small portion of those as they have to have the right I/O still available and then there is the extra cost of sorting these and the costs of a different package option, stocking etc. Now if there are only limited quantities of these smaller packs then this creates a problem with supply when new designs ramp up their volume it means that premium grade chips now have to be diverted to the smaller package. All this works fine for memory chips that are produced in such huge volumes and have the same package anyway, just strap the high address high or low and it's all good. Parallax is a small company with relatively small volumes and resources and P2 is not a memory chip.
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