Shop OBEX P1 Docs P2 Docs Learn Events
Tube Travel Between San Francisco and LA in 30 minutes — Parallax Forums

Tube Travel Between San Francisco and LA in 30 minutes

tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
edited 2013-08-18 19:54 in General Discussion
On Aug12 Elon Musk will release to the public the blueprint and without patents.
hyperloop.gif?psid=1

Musk described the Hyperloop as "a cross between a Concorde, a railgun and an air hockey table,"

It's not vacuum, I would guess:
The air hockey pressure that runs along the outer cavity will stop the cars from hitting the wall, though is there mostly to
create an air film to reduce the drag the wall have on the air columns traveling along with the cars.

The air hockey vents will also help with the anti-collision, as two cars can never hit each other as the air in between
the would build up to create a stop but the vent holes will allow some air out to stop it a little gentler + no bungee effect

The higher pressure in the outer cavity is from the acceleration part, as cars are accelerated in a closed space.
Sure that will use more energy but it will create the air pressure needed and this way it's a "free" air pump.


NY-to-LA in 45minutes as top speed is 4000mph, and at 1G it only takes 3 minutes to get up to that speed.

New York-Los Angeles is both the busiest long-haul U.S. route,
at about 3.2 million passengers a year, and the richest, at $1.43 billion in annual sales, according to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics

6 people to a car every 1 minute in each direction, could handle 200% of that workload, as demand would probably double if you can get there in less than an hour.
«1

Comments

  • TorTor Posts: 2,010
    edited 2013-07-21 06:28
    There's an error in the diagram though (I assume it's Musk's) - there simply is not such thing as 'kph'. Kilos per hour? That's not a unit. It's km/h. I would much rather prefer seeing only miles per hour alone instead of that despicable 'kph'.

    -Tor
  • PJAllenPJAllen Banned Posts: 5,065
    edited 2013-07-21 07:22
    But California is committed to a high-speed rail boondoggle already.
    Just imagine, Merced to Bakersfield in eight hours.
    Breaktaking.
    Tor wrote: »
    There's an error in the diagram though (I assume it's Musk's) - there simply is not such thing as 'kph'. Kilos per hour? That's not a unit. It's km/h. I would much rather prefer seeing only miles per hour alone instead of that despicable 'kph'.

    Miles per hour has always been "mph" even though the abbreviation for mile/miles is mi.
    "mph" is metres per hour.

    (Went out to the Honda and it has "mph" and "km/h".)
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2013-07-21 07:31
    >There's an error in the diagram though (I assume it's Musk's)
    No it's by John Gardi, that Elon said who's guess is the closest one.

    And the kph must be referring to 'Kilometer' ,so common in non Imperial-unit-countries that is may have fused in to one 'word' for some people vs Kilo Meters
    In USA with the stress on the second syllable, (kĭ-lŏm'ĭ-tər) where the 'lo' and the 'm' are fused together I could see it happen here too.
  • PJAllenPJAllen Banned Posts: 5,065
    edited 2013-07-21 08:02
    tonyp12 wrote: »
    ... non Imperial-unit-countries...
    You mean "metric countries"?
    America is a 'non Imperial-unit' country, too.
  • Beau SchwabeBeau Schwabe Posts: 6,566
    edited 2013-07-21 08:17
    "tube travel is only as efficient as it's weakest link" - me ... what happens to the people 'inside' the tube if you have a bunch of slow (lazy) people getting on or off? You need to have some sort of roundabout, but then that defeats the purpose. ... I'm afraid the laziness would quickly become a side effect of the stereo type using this form of transportation not unlike what the fast food industry has done to America. I being no exception.

    BTW) There probably isn't a patent by Musk, because this system approximates too closely what some banks and pharmacies have been using for years in their drive through.
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2013-07-21 08:47
    >America is a 'non Imperial-unit' country, too.
    I was referring to the names/words used, not what the actual unit itself in volume/mass/lenght represents

    > a bunch of slow (lazy) people getting on or off?
    The cars travel 1 minute apart all the time, maybe progressively slowed down during non-peek like 3am
    1: You have a system where the cars move 1mpg at the station bumper to bumper and passengers walk on to a moving walkway
    2: The cars are transfered on to a holding platform where they will be next in-line for the rail-gun when the 6 passengers onboard have pressed the OK button.

    The 2 will give the passages all the time they need to load their luggage, if they need 2 or 10+ minutes.


    >system approximates too closely what some banks and pharmacies
    No it does not, they use vacuum to create the moving force.
    Elon uses maglev and rail gun and it does not use vacuum to eliminate air friction (it makes the air move along at the same speed instead)

    Elon uses a new technology where the walls are like air hockey table vents, I have not seen that anywhere.
    So his system is different enough that it could be patented if he wanted to, but it will be public domain,
  • Beau SchwabeBeau Schwabe Posts: 6,566
    edited 2013-07-21 09:12
    I will politely agree to disagree .... we have all seen how ridiculous patents can be. In terms of a patent, it doesn't matter if you are blowing or creating a vacuum the underlying idea is that you are transporting something in a tube from point A to point B. And patents by their absurd nature are designed to encompass every conceivable possibility, even if the inventor hadn't originally thought of the idea for a particular purpose in the first place.

    "Elon uses maglev and rail gun" ... only to accelerate and decelerate. There are fans in the 'green' section that keep the air flow (column) going. You can't expect to launch a vehicle from one end and for it to completely friction free glide to the other end over that amount of distance.
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2013-07-21 09:20
    He could not patent that you travel in a tube, it would be like someone patent that you use wheels to travel down the highway.
    Could patent the individual parts, like the air hockey vents etc.

    >"Elon uses maglev and rail gun" ... only to accelerate and decelerate.
    We don't know that yet, the picture is just a guess on what some parts of the system will do.
    Elon machines his on parts to go in to space, I'm sure he figured out how to possible do this.
    We will really not know until Aug12
  • ctwardellctwardell Posts: 1,716
    edited 2013-07-21 09:34
    I think this will stay a "pipe dream"...

    Too costly to construct, and would need absolute security as it just begs to be a terror target.

    C.W.
  • Beau SchwabeBeau Schwabe Posts: 6,566
    edited 2013-07-21 09:42
    "We will really not know until Aug12" - fair enough.

    Something to ponder about the hockey puck principle ....

    http://www.seykota.com/rm/spool_card/spool_card.htm

    ...Note, in this article the author confuses "Radial Momentum" and "Bernoulli's Principle" as not being related, but they absolutely are related.... the Radial airflow over one side of the card versus not across the back side of the card creates the same air pressure differences as the lift in a wing. The difference is, that with "Radial Momentum" this happens in all directions, where as "Bernoulli's Principle" you have a general flow in one direction only.

    Anyway this relates the the hockey puck principle, in that an envelope or equilibrium of an air pocket is formed that keeps the hockey puck floating, and draws it near the air jet(s) at the same time having a centering or balancing effect..... in a way this could be analogous in electronics to a sigma delta ADC that is self-seeking of the I/O threshold. That threshold, would essentially relate to the distance or the gap of the air cushion created around the hockey puck ... and even in extreme cases it will even oscillate trying to seek a balance. Place a piece of paper on a glass surface table, and gently blow straight down on the table adjacent to the paper.
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2013-07-21 09:43
    >Too costly to construct, and would need absolute security as it just begs to be a terror target.
    Cost 1/4 of a highway.
    As casualty in a terror attack would be limited to 6-12victims as cars are 1 minute apart and need 1 minute to slowdown to a stop with -2G
    Maybe it will not be the mean of showing terror, as rate of death would be less than that of an attack on any other type of mass transit.
  • ctwardellctwardell Posts: 1,716
    edited 2013-07-21 09:57
    tonyp12 wrote: »
    >Too costly to construct, and would need absolute security as it just begs to be a terror target.
    Cost 1/4 of a highway.
    As casualty in a terror attack would be limited to 6-12victims as cars are 1 minute apart and need 1 minute to slowdown to a stop with -2G
    Maybe it will not be the mean of showing terror, as rate of death would be less than that of an attack on any other type of mass transit.

    A single occurance is all it would take to make people realize that a "crash" at those speeds results in humans being turned into "goo", plus you've take down the entire system.

    I wish we were civilized enough to not have to consider these things, but unfortunately we are not.

    C.W.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2013-07-21 10:41
    LA to San Francisco in 30 minutes? San Franciscans would never allow it. ;-)
    You just have to understand that there is a great cultural divide between North and South in California... many believe it should be two states.

    Besides, modern transportation has killed more than all the wars in history.. the faster we go, the bigger the splat.

    Also, there is a naive presumption that the accelleration and decelleration can be done in short distances. Taiwan's high speed railway spends about half its time accellerating and half its time decellerating. If they added more interim stops, there would not be any high speed at all.

    And going through curves at 600 mile per hour is not without pulling some Gs. Nobody is going to find a beeline right of way to build this on.
  • pmrobertpmrobert Posts: 675
    edited 2013-07-21 10:44
    Re terrorism: How the world has changed. Unfortunately you have to factor in that factor. Many people don't seem to realize you can't terrorize dead people - all you need is an idea, a concept, a threat that is made very real with a very low body count to generate said concept.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2013-07-21 11:54
    ctwardell wrote: »
    A single occurance is all it would take to make people realize that a "crash" at those speeds results in humans being turned into "goo", plus you've take down the entire system.

    A very similar set of problems has not stopped air travel, which is more vulnerable and inferior to this tube system in surprising ways.
  • ctwardellctwardell Posts: 1,716
    edited 2013-07-21 12:22
    localroger wrote: »
    A very similar set of problems has not stopped air travel, which is more vulnerable and inferior to this tube system in surprising ways.

    That's true, and dead is dead, but the "goo factor" is much higher at 4000mph than at 500mph.

    Still, taking out any given airliner or even a group of them doesn't break the entire system.

    Damaging either of the two tubes in this case takes the whole system down until the tube can be repaired.

    C.W.
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,313
    edited 2013-07-21 12:34
    Man, this is cool. I would make a special visit to California just to ride it.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2013-07-21 13:23
    ctwardell wrote: »
    Damaging either of the two tubes in this case takes the whole system down until the tube can be repaired.

    Since the tubes need to be proof against neither liquid nor vacuum, that probably would not be a major problem. Pipelines fail with some regularity without any help from terrorists at all in conditions where service would be much harder, but we manage to deal with it.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2013-07-21 13:28
    ctwardell wrote: »
    That's true, and dead is dead, but the "goo factor" is much higher at 4000mph than at 500mph.

    I don't think this necessarily follows. Many air crash victims have died because of being in close confinement with many other people in an aluminum tube full of flammable items and nearby huge fuel tanks. While it would certainly ruin your day to hit a wall at 4,000 MPH it's interesting that the capsules can safely stop in their separation distance. It seems like the worst-case potential for getting turned into homo sapiens flambe on this thing is quite a bit less than it is with an airplane if only because it would be almost impossible to catastrophically destroy more than one capsule, even if you did force the whole system offline for repairs.
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2013-07-21 13:51
    And if a section of tube have to be replaced , the replacement section will run on top of the tube(s) to the location.
    The same way they build rail-roads, this way they can always reach a section of the tube even if in a remote part or swamp land etc.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2013-07-21 13:59
    I don't quite follow where the 4000 MPH came from. This proposal was 600MPH wasn't it? And it seems as if it would have to break the sound barrier to get up to speed on each and every journey. ... but maybe it is just intended to fall short of the sound barrier.

    There are good reasons airliners quit supersonic and have stayed subsonic for profits, but near to that barrier. Are you really thinking that a circular tube with air moving at Mach 5 or something is going to be easy to jump in and out of?
  • ctwardellctwardell Posts: 1,716
    edited 2013-07-21 16:05
    I don't quite follow where the 4000 MPH came from. This proposal was 600MPH wasn't it? And it seems as if it would have to break the sound barrier to get up to speed on each and every journey. ... but maybe it is just intended to fall short of the sound barrier.

    There are good reasons airliners quit supersonic and have stayed subsonic for profits, but near to that barrier. Are you really thinking that a circular tube with air moving at Mach 5 or something is going to be easy to jump in and out of?

    The 600MPH number is for the SF to LA loop. The NY to LA loop would use 4000MPH top speed.

    C.W.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2013-07-21 16:46
    Ah, I see....
    I think I am good with my 14-18 hour flights back to the USA. A scram jet doesn't get up to 4000 MPH, does it?
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2013-07-21 18:34
    Going the 50feet under the water route is a possibility too.
    With the tubes slight bouncy they would be tied down to the sea floor.

    Pro: No land purchases, more west distance of the Andr
    921 x 874 - 285K
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2013-07-21 19:01
    tonyp12 wrote: »
    On Aug12 Elon Musk will release to the public the blueprint and without patents.
    ..
    Musk described the Hyperloop as "a cross between a Concorde, a railgun and an air hockey table,"

    Interesting - but no details on how much power a car has*, and it will need many more than two fans to circulate the air.

    * The distinct entry/exit acceleration zones suggest some optimist may expect cars to sail all the way, but they will need some local power to limp-home in a air-loss situation, and to keep relative station.

    My guess is the running costs will sink this, as the energy to keep that mass of air moving all the time, will be enormous.

    All up, a woefully inefficient way to move the payload.
  • TorTor Posts: 2,010
    edited 2013-07-22 05:09
    Except for the energy issue I don't really see how moving air at 4000 miles per hour would be much better than moving a physical object by that speed through air - the walls of the tube will be moving supersonically relative to the air. There must be severe friction and heating issues too. And how could fans be used to move air that fast? They would probably have to go scramjet, with all what that implies.

    -Tor
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2013-07-22 05:14
    How far is it between escape hatches/access points?

    Are there emergency doors on each end of the car?

    Can you walk the tunnel?

    Why did they pick 3 cities that I really have no interest in going to or between? :smile:
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2013-07-22 06:49
    >How far is it between escape hatches/access points? >Are there emergency doors on each end of the car?

    Very large distances, maybe only 2 on the whole route.
    No emergence exits, you are better of staying in your car.
    They will send a special car that are waiting at stations that is battery powered down the line at 100mpg that will push you to the next exit.
    The cities that will get the tube are cosmopolitan places where people are worldly/jetsetters and are more likely to value their time.
    Not that is anything wrong to be a person that want to live a slower pace part of the USA.
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,313
    edited 2013-07-22 06:52
    So, the speed of sound deceases with lower pressure, and increases with higher pressure. So would there be an advantage to lower or higher pressure in the tubes? I think lower, less mass to move around. Or is this effect negligible?

    Now that I think about it, the air hockey implies a cushion of air under the car. Think they will suck the air from in front of the car and shoot it out underneath and behind?
  • Dave HeinDave Hein Posts: 6,347
    edited 2013-07-22 07:17
    The speed of sound is a function of temperature, and not pressure. This tube thing works by circulating the entire column of air by 600 MPH. It's basically a 700 mile long wind tunnel. It's seems like the air resistance along the skin of 700 miles of tube would require a lot of power to overcome, but maybe it's not that bad. It depends on how smooth the inner surface is.
Sign In or Register to comment.