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Thousands of brave young heaters help win WW2 — Parallax Forums

Thousands of brave young heaters help win WW2

Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
edited 2013-06-05 00:10 in General Discussion
Perhaps you have all seen this story of the Colossus computer already but I have only just discovered it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjfGAGWNU8c

Comments

  • bill190bill190 Posts: 769
    edited 2013-06-02 20:45
    I've read of that, but not in the computer history books I read in the 80's (no mention whatsoever!) Anyway nice to see pictures and the video. Thanks for posting.

    One thing I've always wondered about those massive early computers was how they could connect all those wires and not make a wiring mistake? I have trouble connecting wires to just a Propeller chip and sometimes connecting something to the wrong pin! :smile:

    And how they would know if one of those "valves" (or tubes) was no longer working? (I've read that some of those early machines could only operate for a couple of hours before a tube went out and it needed service (not a problem with the colossus as mentioned in the video).
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-06-03 01:14
    Most of that stuff was declassified only recently. It was all secret for 50 years. Which as you can imagine was a really bad idea as Brittain could not get on with building a computer industry out of it. Tommy Flowers, the Colossus designer, had to go back to work on telephone switching problems.

    Tubes are much more reliable when you never turn them off. Like light bulbs the heaters in tubes suffer from huge current in rush when they are switched on from cold and the thermal cycling kills them prematurely.

    Besides I don't think tubes were as unreliable as people say. I was brought up with tube radios. I have seen many examples that have worked for decades without issue. We were always testing for dead/soft tubes and I inly remember finding a couple.
  • TorTor Posts: 2,010
    edited 2013-06-03 06:27
    Heater. wrote: »
    Besides I don't think tubes were as unreliable as people say. I was brought up with tube radios. I have seen many examples that have worked for decades without issue. We were always testing for dead/soft tubes and I inly remember finding a couple.
    When we finally got TV in my part of the country the TVs were of course all-tube/valve. I remember that the TV service guy visited us frequently to fix the TV (I was around 7), which always involved replacing some tubes. After a year or so someone finally thought of checking the mains voltage.. which turned out to be 240 V, way above what it should be. The TV transformer had a setting for it though, so it was changed from 220V to 240V, and the TV stopped breaking down all the time.

    At that time it was possible to have something called 'tube insurance', so my father didn't actually have to pay for all the replaced tubes. It shouldn't come as a surprise that 'tube insurance' was a concept with a short lifetime..
    And as a 7-year old I was fascinated by those tubes the TV service guy kept changing, I used to watch when he opened the back of the TV and my interest in electronics was awakened: I wanted to learn how to repair electronics, and that's exactly what I did. And that lead me to microelectronics, and computers, and programming and everything that I have done in my working life.

    -Tor
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2013-06-03 07:25
    There was a very good documentary on Colossus shown on public television in the US in the last year or so. I believe it was done as part of the Nova series of shows.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2013-06-03 16:13
    Heater. wrote: »
    Besides I don't think tubes were as unreliable as people say. I was brought up with tube radios. I have seen many examples that have worked for decades without issue.

    A very well designed tube in low-power service might have a MTBF of 20,000 hours. More than that was very hard because the coating for dull emitter filaments would wear out gradually with continuous use. The most frequent mode of tube failure was in fact emission drop rather than filament burnout for this reason.

    And it was not unusual for those early computers to have 10,000+ tubes. There were other factors; machines with multiple mercury delay line memories had to have the delay lines in temperature controlled ovens so they'd all have exactly the same propagation speed to sync output. It was a common ritual for the machine to be serviced in the early morning and to run fine until early afternoon, when you'd schedule less important work because the glitches would start to show.

    As for how they serviced those beasts, the techs were intimately familiar with their ins and outs and had special diagnostics which were necessary in the course of building the machine components to tell whether they were working at all. This was all baked in at a low level in ways nobody would bother with today. A lot of hardware was in those machines just to make sure the real hardware was working; a parity bit and error detector was a bit of an extravagance but necessary if you couldn't really trust your memory to reliably return what had been written.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-06-03 16:25
    Colossus only had 1800 or so tubes. So it looks like you could get through a whole day without a failure. As they have a working Colossus now we should be able to find out what rate they get through tubes.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2013-06-03 18:23
    While it's not too puzzling why the brits let John von Neumann toil away on his computer (targeted from the beginning for hydrodynamical calculations to support nuclear weapons research) it's much weirder that they let Alan Turing toil away on Pilot Ace without the help of a fellow Briton who had already solved the problem.

    Those early early computers had 1,000 to 2,000 valves, but later machines got more complex. Trust Wiki to have a list of them:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vacuum_tube_computers

    Check out especially the AN/FSQl-7 with its 60,000 valves. Part of the reason for it having *so* many valves was failure remediation so that a failure wouldn't bring the ongoing operation to a screeching halt.
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2013-06-04 05:10
    That list isn't really complete...

    NUSSE from Norway is missing
    http://users.abo.fi/atorn/History/Page14.html
    This could of course be because the CPU is an English APEXC CPU, but the rest was designed and built in Norway. The English CPU designer called it APENC.
    (1000 tubes, 512 x 32bit word memory, paper tape input/output, dedicated printer. )
    Ran the game of NIM in 1953.
    It could add, subtract and multiply.
    A typical multiply took .24seconds, and a divide .27seconds(using a subroutine)

    They had problems with it being unstable at certain times of day... When a nearby nail/bolt manufacturer turned on and off the furnaces.
    Long calculations therefore ran at night when the power was more stable.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-06-04 05:15
    The Colossus was designed by Tommy Flowers for use in code breaking at Bletchley Park where Turing was also working. Problem was that following that all that work was classified for 50 years. Poor old Tommy wanted to continue the computer work at the Post Office research labs but they did not understand what it was about and Tommy was not allowed to tell them what he had done.

    Tommy Flowers was a London boy with a Cockney accent, the son of a bricklayer, working for the Post Office on telephone switch problems. He was not an academic at Oxford or Cambridge. Basically his social position in class ridden Britain at the time meant he had little sway with what went on. He just had to shut up and go back to work at the post office.

    It was a disaster that way.

    To get a feel about what a miserable situation that was watch this presentation by Captain Jerry Roberts. One of the code breakers at Bletchley. At over 90 years old he is still campaigning for proper recognition for Alan Turing, Bill Tutte and Tommy Flowers.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2013-06-04 09:46
    Gadgetman wrote: »
    That list isn't really complete...NUSSE from Norway is missing
    http://users.abo.fi/atorn/History/Page14.html

    It's too bad Wikipedia doesn't have some kind of mechanism for members of the public to add information like that. Some kind of open-access group moderated editing process perhaps. I bet it would grow like barnbusters if they implemented something like that!
  • TorTor Posts: 2,010
    edited 2013-06-04 10:20
    localroger wrote: »
    It's too bad Wikipedia doesn't have some kind of mechanism for members of the public to add information like that. Some kind of open-access group moderated editing process perhaps. I bet it would grow like barnbusters if they implemented something like that!
    :)

    Back when the Wikipedia project was started I hoped it would grow to store 'all knowledge', a bit like the 'Library' of David Brin's "Uplift" books. And at one point everything went well. But now? I have basically stopped adding info to Wikipedia. There's a group of half-official people hunting information that isn't "noteworthy" and removing it. There are some great, valuable, correct articles about some old microprocessors, for example, which are marked for deletion by those people because the info/processor is not "noteworthy" enough, or there's info too close to so-called 'self-research', or both. People have to fight to keep real information in Wikipedia. I just don't dare add much anything anymore. There's still lots of info there, but the number of contributors have falled dramatically from what I can tell. Just the other day I read about information being removed from Wikipedia because these pundits don't think information about areas in Africa isn't interesting. All because of their own ignorance, of course. And talking about ignorance, they also delete information about old electronics because they believe it must be wrong. They're incompetent and don't know it. But what I dislike the most is the whole concept of "noteworthy".

    Regarding old computers, I dedicate 100 percent of my Wiki editing efforts into dedicated wiki sites, not Wikipedia anymore.

    -Tor
  • frank freedmanfrank freedman Posts: 1,983
    edited 2013-06-05 00:10
    Tor wrote: »
    When we finally got TV in my part of the country the TVs were of course all-tube/valve. I remember that the TV service guy visited us frequently to fix the TV (I was around 7), which always involved replacing some tubes. After a year or so someone finally thought of checking the mains voltage.. which turned out to be 240 V, way above what it should be. The TV transformer had a setting for it though, so it was changed from 220V to 240V, and the TV stopped breaking down all the time.

    At that time it was possible to have something called 'tube insurance', so my father didn't actually have to pay for all the replaced tubes. It shouldn't come as a surprise that 'tube insurance' was a concept with a short lifetime..
    And as a 7-year old I was fascinated by those tubes the TV service guy kept changing, I used to watch when he opened the back of the TV and my interest in electronics was awakened: I wanted to learn how to repair electronics, and that's exactly what I did. And that lead me to microelectronics, and computers, and programming and everything that I have done in my working life.

    -Tor

    Actually, tube insurance has been taken to the level of fine art by Siemens, Philips, and GE. It's called glassware coverage for your X-ray tubes which range in price form $3k for a low end X-ray tube for a rad room or portable unit to around $250K or more for a high end CT tube.

    FF
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