Laptop Recommendations for Hardware development?

rwgast_logicdesign

I have pretty much always built every PC I have owned, and I have always built hi end overclocked gaming rigs with water cooling and all that pazazz. Well those days have come to an end, I don't play games anymore and I find myself needing a laptop more than a desktop most of the time. I would like to build a desktop with a bunch of Serial cards and data acquisition hardware, but right now that isn't the path I want to take.

I've been browsing laptops lately and see the world is changing quite a bit from the last time I built a PC. The first thing is windows 8, a lot inexpensive laptops are advertised as Quad Core, then when inspected deeper it turns out they have an allwinner cortex A8, cpu, which is ARM. This advertisement seems a bit shady, I mean sure they'll run windows/linux etc, but they wont run any binaries for an x86, so those are all ruled out. Unless windows 8 has some emulation mode I am unaware of. Windows 8 has also made touch screen laptops popular, are they worth it? Will I have any trouble getting a linux dual boot on a windows 8 machine? I have heard something about boot loader locks that will not allow you to install another OS besides windows 8, is this true?

Nextly, I need serial ports... Am I right to guess the only way that is going to happen in this day and age is to plug a bunch of FTDI USB to serial cables in to the thing? Im really just looking for something that is fast enough for heavy weight development software and CAD programs... I know I want at least 3gb of RAM, Im just not sure about all these newer mobile CPUs. Is an i3 fairly quick, or is it worth it to move up to an i5? And what about AMD based mobile chipsets? Things sure have changed from the core two duo days...

Heater.

Don't be blinded by advertising and hype.

I'm posting here from a five year or more old AMD 64 bit Athlon 1.0 HGz with 2 Gigs RAM. Its a good old big box PC. It can do everything I need for developing in almost any language or Prop programming or even playing with VHDL and FPGA's.

Now perhaps a modern lap top can do all that. Or even a tablet. All well and good as long as I can connect a couple of big monitors and a decent keyboard.

Do you need to be mobile to do that?

I don't,. All my files are out there in github or some other cloud. I can migrate from home to work or where ever, computer to computer and continue work.

At the end of the day you have to say good bye to Windows. So your x86 binaries don't run on Allwinner or whatever ARM processor. A recompile gets you going in the open source world.

Serial ports don't exist anymore. Only as virtualized by USB dongles.

potatohead

Yes, you will need to use the USB - Serial adapters. Truth is, they work great. I have two of them, and they both offer just a simple DB9 and they work with everything back to 1979. No worries on those.

If you want a dock, those things have serial, SCSI (often, not always), USB and some video ports you can choose to wear out first. Recommended. They cost more and typically work with only a few machines in a series, but are great for your workbench. I don't have one currently, but I did in the past. Liked it.

My recommendation is to get a reasonable i5 or better CPU, whatever you can reasonably afford. It will be fast enough. Get a fast internal hard disk, 7200 RPM. What I like to do is buy the machine with the dog slow disk that's cheap, go and pick a great one out that I like and clone the system disk right away, preserving the factory state. From there, I'll make another clone or two when I upgrade disks, preserving licenses and such too. If you can spend for it, the SSD drives are insane fast. You don't need this stuff for this work, unless you are doing very significant projects, but it's nice to have and with laptops, buying up means running them for a long time.

That strategy has worked for me. My old T60p that I had when I first got a Prop is still just fine. Long run time for a laptop or desktop. Got a Prop the first year it was released.

Get the bigger battery, whatever it is. Then get another one, and cycle them reasonably. They will last you years.

Make sure the laptop has a VGA output, and if it's got Display Port, make sure you get one of the little HDMI adapter cables, with the optional DVI and with that you are set for any display except for an analog TV, and that can be done off the dock, but nobody does.

Right now is a crappy time to buy a Windows machine because not getting Windows 8 isn't an option, or if it is, you pay business class prices. Sucks, but that is how it is. If you don't care about speed and some of the features I mentioned, get one of the open laptops sold with Linux and you can do a lot with that no hassle.

If you do buy Windows get Pro, because that has downgrade rights. Thank me later.

Make sure the thing has a coupla sets of USB ports. You might damage one, or need a few at a time.

I typically pay well for a machine and use the Smile out of it for a really long time. Pay up for a great LED back lit display, because the years you will use it will pay off because you won't be experiencing the gas tube fade effect that happens with age and getting bumped around, nor will you be buying spare ballasts and figuring out how to get them installed. (I'm talking to you HP)

Mike Green

1) You won't find any serial ports built into a laptop. Forget it! It's all USB and USB to serial adapters.

2) Forget touchscreens. You have to write application software specifically for touchscreens for them to be useful. Compare a good Android or iPad application with something similar for Windows or the MacOS. They're very different.

3) I'm not favorably impressed with Windows 8. I guess you're stuck with it these days. I do most of my work on a Mac and run Windows XP on that when I have to (using Parallels Desktop).

4) Can't help you with the dual boot thing. I tried it and eventually gave up on it, but I was using a slightly flakey NetBook that worked OK for either, but not both.

Heater.

potatohead.

If you do buy Windows get Pro, because that has downgrade rights.

That's brilliant.

What you are saying is "pay extra for the latest Pro Windows because when you find out it does not do what yo want you can downgrade to some ten years old version of Windows that does"

No wonder Bill Gates has 70 odd billion in the bank. As P.T.Barnum said "There is a sucker born every minute". Or was that David Hannum?

rwgast_logicdesign

I don't understand downgrade rights... ? I have windows 7 around, I cant just format the thing and install windows 7 and and linux dual boot? I never use a laptop or pre built machine without wiping it and installing a fresh copy of OS's. The OEMs put way to much junk on a machine.. Does this go back to the locked bootloader. or is that only on the ARM machines?

Right now I am mostly on a 2ghz XP machine with a GB of RAM, unfortunately. It works for most things, but when it comes to things like AVR studio, or Altium it just chokes, probably just a RAM issue. The reason I want to go to a laptop is I'm back and forth between two houses and sometimes I stay at a hotel during the week so I don't have to wake up at 2:30am to commute to work . I would much rather just build a nice dual core desktop with 4gb of ram and dual monitors, but right now I would hardly get to use it.

Heater.

I don't know.

A modern laptop is a giant of computing power in my mind. But I cannot work with those dinky, mushy, keyboards, I need big screen. I need a proper mouse. And I certainly don't want to have to carry the thing around.

Anyway, you have mentioned AVR studio and Altium as being particularly slow. Perhaps you can find out if that us a memory problem. For sure on any machine as soon as you exceed physical RAM hit swap space everything slows by a factor of thousands.

xanadu

Downgrade rights aren't so bad in the fact that you're paying for one operating system and getting two.

Personally I'd put together a "decent" desktop with some RAID and then go on eBay and buy a $50 ThinkPad (or two). Use the desktop to store data and use the laptop to remote into the desktop, if needed.

For choosing a new laptop, a power user as yourself may never find anything new ideal. IMHO the only thing Windows 8 is good for is administering Hyper-V on Server 2012 core. I cannot think of one thing about it other than that. Sure some other things are cooler, like I can see what RAM is in what slots but since you can already do that with third party software there isn't much point.

The difference between i3 and i5 depend on the models. Be careful of the lower end i5 CPUs though, they can cost a bunch more than a comparable i3. Usually the more cache the more cash.

If you need a laptop for travel then chances are you'll want something light. The weight can often determine everything else, keep an eye on that. The screen size and whether or not you can live with the built in keyboard are pretty big factors too.

I still cannot pass up buying a $100 used laptop on eBay over anything new though, even if it is a couple pounds heavier, it's so much easier to get going, and sometimes used stuff is more reliable than new.

prof_braino

Friend has an i7 quad core laptop purchased for under $600. Its way more powerful than his last desktop machine. He runs everything on a virtual machine, the biggest problem is it switches between sessions so fast he can't always get it to stop at the right one. Spend more once, rather than spend less many more times, its a net savings.

rwgast_logicdesign

Well I was shooting between $200-$600, just depending on what's available. I really just want a machine with 4gb of ram a 2ghz dual core and windows 7 and as much I/O as possible. I don't care if it has windows 8, as long as I can wipe it which is what I don't understand, what is downgrade rights?

It would be nice to just run linux as heater says, but some software has to be emulated, which is annoying and sometimes it takes to long messing around with linux to get something working for example an ARM cross compiler system, I do love customizing my box and tweaking linux but sometimes I want to sit down and get to work as fast as possible without messing with the software.

As far as a desktop Ill probably just pick up two 26" monitors, a new psu and mobo with core two duo then throw my old geforce gtx8800 in there, and call it a day.

I was looking at a core i5 inspiron for about $480 but idk...

Ill probably purchase a laptop in about a month, right now I've been picking out a good CAT IV multi meter for home and work, getting a decent 1000v meter with all the bells and whistles and hi accuracy is more than a laptop or a rigol dso!!! Im out at the biggest solar plant in the world right now (7x7 miles of glass) and I want to make sure I have a reliable safe meter and do not have to rely on what the company hands me, when it comes to testing 850v I'm not willing to put my life in the hands of any old meter.

Martin_H

For my last laptop purchase I picked up a manufacturer refurbished Asus from Microcenter that was already downgraded to windows 7. It was $300 with 4gb ram and a good processor.

potatohead

MOh I forgot RAM. Get 4GB minimum, 8 if you can. Laptop memory varies considerably in its reliability and availability and getting it with the machine is often optimal. If you don't, they fill the slots with cheap low capacity RAM and you double buy.

@Heater. Yes licenses are getting narrow, often keyed to a machine and even the right to install the software is regulated. This is being done to support annual service, update and support contracts. If you are on contract you have options. If not, you pay for those. One of the CAD products I work with costs $1000 to install on a different machine when off contract. And the licensing software is very good, able to detect a new machine, eve a copy of a virtual one, unless you know some very geeky things.

In the case of Microsoft, they are moving to prevent another XP being used so darn long, while not annoying business. So you buy Pro or better and you can downgrade it to run any version and move it to new hardware. Home editions are machine specific licenses, unless purchased at full retail, and guess what? That costs what Pro does generally.

Home users, hobby, students, and others will just buy new licenses with new computers, and will just run the latest, forcing moves to new DRM enabled hardware, which the software, game and media companies really like.

A whole lot of people are going to learn what a license is, and it is not owning a copy of software, but merely a right to use. That right will be as narrow as quarterly income expectations needs it to be.

Pay early, pay much less later. That is how it is... I have been putting off UNIX for a long time. This year that ends.

potatohead

If you get a laptop that is windows 8, you will have to make sure it offers the legacy boot option and you will have to either have downgrade rights to run your new Windows license as anything other than windows 8, or move your old 7 license to the new machine, invalidating your old one, which you could keep off the net forever and still use.

The windows 8 is a secure boot OS. It can be loaded on open hardware, but some functionality related to movies, media, games is lost due to the insecure DRM, but it will work great otherwise.

Whether or not you can use legacy boot is up to the hardware vendor. HP offers it, but they make it really hard and not documented. I was stunned when I fought that battle. Took a whole day to get 7 on that machine.

If you buy ARM, you will run windows 8 period. Those machines are closed like phones are.

If you cannot disable secure boot, Intel machines can generally load Linux as that was paid for by somebody to permit a Linux capable boot loader, but again only at the hardware manufacturers discretion.

rwgast_logicdesign

@potatohead, wow...... I almost don't want to buy a computer now, it use to be fun to upgrade! Basically your telling me I need to get Windows 8 Professional and make sure the computer has legacy boot? This will ensure 100% of the freedoms I have come to enjoy in the computing world? Is this also true of a desktop motherboard? Im sure an open hardware laptop will run windows 7/xp just fine too? Even so if this is what the MS world is coming to it may be time to just leave it behind.

Im very much considering dumping windows as heater recommends, whether it be for a laptop with linux and open hardware or even a mac. Funny thing is I HATE MAC, I HAVE ALWAYS HATED ANYTHING APPLE!! There computers are awesome looking, OS10 is based on BSD, they make ipods, whats not to like about mac? Well I hate mac because its a closed platform, and now microsoft has gone down this path and its making me wonder how a true computer user is suppose to USE there computer... it seems if you want freedom you will be sucked back in to paying 1980s prices for PC's just to have the right to use your computer for what you want and not as a machine to run a piece of licensed software.

rwgast_logicdesign

Let me also make sure I have this right, if I buy a laptop with an allwinner cortex a8 in it, It will come with a locked bootloader and only run windows 8. I cant run Linux or Android on the thing? Are there even hacks around this? Haha id probably buy one of the ARM laptops and rip the guts out replacing them with a Hi end Panda/Beagle Board.

I feel like I am buying a license to use the machine not the software.... To me this all seems like a much bigger Anti Trust issue than IE ever was.

Mike Green

Maybe the MacOS is somewhat closed and getting more so over time, but you can dual boot into Linux or any version of Windows that supports the hardware (really old versions of XP might not work) using Boot Camp. One of the big Windows magazines voted the MacBook Pro as the best laptop for Windows based on performance, reliability, etc.

Unless the ARM laptop's sales documentation says it will run Linux or Android, you can bet it won't run anything but Windows 8.

Yes, Microsoft and the device manufacturers are locking you in. If you find a tablet or laptop that can run Linux or Android, you can bet it's a different model number (and boot ROM) than the Windows 8 version. You may lose the bet occasionally, but not for too long and not too many times.

potatohead

Not quite.

You need windows 8 pro if you want to run windows 7, or XP with that license, otherwise you can only run Windows 8 on that machine it was shipped on.

Secure boot is the default on new Windows 8 laptops. What you need to do is make sure the hardware vendor has allowed access to the BIOS / FLASH settings needed for it to boot in legacy (normal) mode. HP does, but you have to poke around on the keyboard a little while booting to figure it out. I was early on that model. Probably that info is out there more now. Just check.

If it has the option to turn the secure boot off, you can do what you are used to doing.

I know, PITA isn't it?

NWCCTV

Another thing you need to be sure of if you go with Windows 8 and want to Downgrade is the driver compatibility. I had a client years ago that bought 6 HP systems that came preloaded with Vista Home. They wanted the systems to connect to their Domain and did not want Vista. I downgraded all the machines to XP Pro only to find that some of the hardware no longer worked and there was no driver for XP for them. This included the on board LAN and audio cards. I had to install separate LAN cards on each machine and they chose not to worry about the audio. Also, the video card would only use the Windows default driver.

Heater.

So, the answer is:

Get a Raspberry Pi, or VIA APC, or one of an ever growing bunch or ARM machines.

Sure they might be slower than you are used to. But hey, demand will spur progress. 64 bit ARMs are on their way.

It's already 5 years or more ago that I would select a PC based on it's ability to boot a Debian installation CD. If it cannot do that simple task it is no machine for me.

potatohead

Looks like my post didn't show up.

If you buy ARM Windows 8 machines, they are locked to Windows 8, unless somebody has cracked the things. I don't know yet.

If you buy Intel Windows 8 machines, then my comments above are correct. To clarify, buying the Home edition of Windows 8 does not prevent you from disabling the secure boot, but it does prevent you from using that license to run Windows 7 or XP, etc... No downgrade rights, but you can run Linux or BSD or whatever else you want to run.

Hope that helps.

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

I would buy a good reconditioned Windows 7 machine. There are still plenty of them out there, and good deals are to be had.

-Phil

potatohead

Seconded. That's a great suggestion, particularly given how expensive the business class machines are. You probably can get one of those as a refurb for about the same amount as you would a spiffy new Win 8 machine.

rwgast_logicdesign

Ya looking around new egg there are LOTS of win7 core 2 duo note books with 4gb of ram! Better yet a refurbished lenovo or dell with those specs is about 230 dollars, thats hard to beat!

Dr_Acula

Buying a new computer can be fun. Or bamboozling, esp if you ask computer experts! All I can do is add my 2c worth. I ran on XP for a decade, long after the rest of the family moved on. So when I upgraded I went from XP to a brand new Win 8 box. Steep part of the learning curve as I missed out all the incremental changes in between. So - add some software to add the start button back again. Add some tiny shortcuts for Shutdown and Hibernate. Put a shortcut for the desktop on the main screen, and now it is something I understand. USB to serial adaptors for interfacing to the real world. Propeller programming all working fine. And I'm still recycling my old CRT monitor. Download and run VirtualBox and I can have Ubuntu and any version of windows on the same machine.
But then I wanted to go portable, to be able to program the propeller out in the field, and to hang with the kids while watching TV and checking FriendFace. So I got a $150 netbook with Win 7. It can do all the things the Win 8 desktop can do, it is only fractionally slower, and it is a more familiar OS.

So I am going to second/third PhiPi and potatohead's suggestion above.

Peter KG6LSE

Mike Green wrote: »

1) You won't find any serial ports built into a laptop. Forget it! It's all USB and USB to serial adapters.

2) Forget touchscreens. You have to write application software specifically for touchscreens for them to be useful. Compare a good Android or iPad application with something similar for Windows or the MacOS. They're very different.

3) I'm not favorably impressed with Windows 8. I guess you're stuck with it these days. I do most of my work on a Mac and run Windows XP on that when I have to (using Parallels Desktop).

4) Can't help you with the dual boot thing. I tried it and eventually gave up on it, but I was using a slightly flakey NetBook that worked OK for either, but not both.

Mike I disgreee the CF 32 Toughbook and the GETAC B300 have serials both are current laptops .... Biz laptops can still have a serial port ..

I just last night for a client programmed a GASP picaxe Via real serial for a small PWM for his car fan .. No point throwing away a BS2 on a mundane task as ADC and a PWM 3 amp fan...

RG logic

windows is NOT open ,., you cant legally decompile windows can you ? Or get the source code ?OSX is NO worse ..


look at a used Professional laptop ....I got a VERY good laptop that is Bomb proof ....... for under 700 bucks and it can Run Win7

Heck here is the photos
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Core 2 duo .... 4 GB ram SATA HDD . Bluetooth Firewire PC card ... Express card ! USBV 2.0 X3 Serial ! VGA SD Reader GigE WIFI GPS . 8 hour batt Back light keyboard . touchscreen .

I got it for the reason that I NEED to have alll the porrts I can get ! I never know what Iam gonna need so i might as well have it buitl in ...
you need Hardware .... this has hardware ! ..... It lacks eSATA and USB3 and has no HDMI ....... all but the HDMI I can get with a card and I have 2 slots so I have room to grow !

erco

Woot plus has "tons of" refurb HP computers on sale thru 5/21. Laptops. Desktops. Most are Win 8, a few are Win 7. Partway down the regular Woot page. Selling out fast.