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Personal Satellites? — Parallax Forums

Personal Satellites?

teganburnsteganburns Posts: 134
edited 2013-04-29 22:38 in General Discussion
I have pondered the idea of a personal satellite and i feel like I'm not the only one on the forum who has also.

Have done a little research in the past and it doesn't seem like there would be too much of a legal problem (as long as it won't re-enter the atmosphere)

I'm not really clear on how far or difficult it would to get 1,200 miles up. (Could use a weather balloon or two to get you part way?)

and then keeping the orbit up as so not to burn up in the atmosphere.

maybe start a mini space station lol :P
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Comments

  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2013-04-23 01:09
    I suppose you could start with what you require for a power source and how much power it will need.

    I am not sure about getting there, and I tend to lean towards the idea that what goes up must come down.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-04-23 02:16
    The altitude record for a balloon is about 53Km. That required 60,000 cubic meters of gas volume!
    About the lowest Earth orbit is 150Km before you get into trouble with the atmosphere.
    If you want a geostationary orbit you want to be at 35768Km.

    Let's see what energy we require to get a 1Kg satellite up to 150Km.

    E = mgh = 1 * 9.81 * 150000 = 1471500 joules.

    That's about the energy you get from burning 0.01 US gallons of gasoline. Seems quite doable.

    But as Loopy says what goes up must come down, unless you have the required orbital speed. Which is about 7900 meters per second or about 28000 km/second or 17600 miles per hour !
    http://www.stuegli.com/phyzx/calculators/calc-orbitvel.htm

    What energy do we need to get that speed?

    Kinetic energy = (m * v * v) / 2 or about 31205000 joules.

    Hey that's only 0.23 gallons of gas. Quite doable! Why is NASA and co building such huge rockets.

    Can anyone spot the flaw in the argument so far?
  • CuriousOneCuriousOne Posts: 931
    edited 2013-04-23 02:26
    You'll need ammonium perchlorate, fine aluminum powder and other interesting chemistry for the fuel, without mentioning that you'll need very special alloy for the nozzle, complex nozzle design software, manufacturing facilities and so on. And as your interest in perchlorate and other chemicals rises, so rises the interest of apropriate govt structures to you :)
  • Dr_AculaDr_Acula Posts: 5,484
    edited 2013-04-23 02:38
    NASA are outsourcing their delivery to the space station and I think one of the two companies (the one that launched yesterday) had a dummy 3 ton load, but they also released some micro satellites at the same time. I need to find the article, but I recall a couple were so tiny they were based on mobile phones. So maybe there is scope for hitching a ride on one of those launches? Probably way cheaper than trying to build your own rocket.

    I like the idea of a formation of tiny microsatellites all working together. Maybe as a space telescope or something. Entirely doable [edit - oops, I mean completely impossible] with propeller type technology - indeed such microsatellites would need to be very low powered and yet have enough smarts to collect data and relay it. Take it to another level and have a little fuel tanker that shuttles between the microsatellites to refuel their attitude thrusters.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-04-23 03:32
    You know, we have been jumping into space since sputnik and we have made quite a mess of our lower orbits with all kind of junk fly around. It's quite a hazard to missions no a days. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_debris#Threat_to_manned_spacecraft

    So don't go adding to the mess unless you are going to clean up after yourself.

    Don't forget. It's no use basing your satellite on a Propeller as everyone knows propellers don't work in space.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-04-23 03:46
    By the way. It's already being done. Personal satellites are being launched via the KickSat project later this year:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KickSat

    For 300 odd dollars you could have been in the club of amateur satellite launchers:

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zacinaction/kicksat-your-personal-spacecraft-in-space
  • Dr_AculaDr_Acula Posts: 5,484
    edited 2013-04-23 04:03
    You can keep your junk filled low earth orbit, heater - my propeller swarm is off to one of the Lagrangian points *grin*.
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2013-04-23 08:02
    Heater. wrote: »
    ....
    Can anyone spot the flaw in the argument so far?

    So long as you know how to use "The Force" to lift things, you're spot on.
  • teganburnsteganburns Posts: 134
    edited 2013-04-23 08:51
    I believe it was around this time last year that i saw a program where you could send something smartphone sized into space for 8k.

    I'm going to email a few major companies and who ever else i can find to see if i can get an price tag on doing this myself.
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2013-04-23 09:26
    Heater. wrote: »
    Can anyone spot the flaw in the argument so far?

    Gasoline can't move you on its own. You need to put it into a a machine which uses it as fuel to lift the payload. Since that machine will have mass it will require fuel to lift it into orbit as well. Most of that fuel will also need to achieve high velocity, so it will need fuel to lift it off the ground. Some of that fuel will also need additional fuel to lift it off the ground. So things quickly get out of hand.

    The above also neglects the efficiency of a rocket which decreases as its velocity increases. So you'll use more fuel at the end of your boost phase per unit of weight.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,452
    edited 2013-04-23 09:44
    Don't kid yourself; it is flatly illegal to launch your own satellite without a license from the FAA, which you probably aren't going to get. See this review:

    http://lawreview.richmond.edu/exploring-the-commercial-space-launch-act/

    In particular section IV, which describes the US regulatory environment. I'm pretty sure I've seen elsewhere that if you are a US citizen this applies to you even if you conduct your launch from another country or international waters. Much of the verbiage has to do with liability, which can fall back to your country even if you're not operating from within your own borders.
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2013-04-23 10:44
    I thought you could have personal satellites if you were able to increase you body's mass to the point where it could create a gravitational field strong enough to capture small objects....dang, all these year's I've been working toward the wrong goal!!
  • tritoniumtritonium Posts: 543
    edited 2013-04-23 14:37
    Let's see what energy we require to get a 1Kg satellite up to 150Km.....

    ....Hey that's only 0.23 gallons of gas. Quite doable! Why is NASA and co building such huge rockets.

    Can anyone spot the flaw in the argument so far?.....
    now I dont know if a US gallon differs from a UK gallon but...
    Oh and I dont know the specific gravity of petrol is but anyway

    I gallon = 10lbs = 4.54kg (for water)
    0.23 gallons = .23 x 4.54 = 1.045kg
    So if the satellite was ONLY fuel - no motor - no body - no control systems....

    I guess we need something with a higher calorific value than petrol.

    (are my sums right???)

    Dave
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2013-04-23 16:28
    Martin_H wrote: »
    The above also neglects the efficiency of a rocket which decreases as its velocity increases.

    I believe it is the other way around.
  • hnuryhnury Posts: 5
    edited 2013-04-24 10:52
    We the human are doing great job to know all the hidden things of the universe.Anyhow thanks to all for some good contribution.I did really enjoy this discussion.
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2013-04-24 13:49
    You can always shoot your way into orbit with a space gun.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_gun
  • JLockeJLocke Posts: 354
    edited 2013-04-26 05:42
    Looks like there are some efforts to clean up what's already up there...

    http://www.space.com/20805-space-debris-european-conference.html
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2013-04-26 06:36
    W9GFO wrote: »
    I believe it is the other way around.

    The effect I'm thinking about is that as a rocket's velocity approaches the exhaust velocity from the nozzle it becomes hard for the rocket to accelerate. Once it is traveling faster than the exhaust velocity fuel consumption increases dramatically. This is a problem for rockets that use chemical energy because they are constrained by how hot they can get the gases, which limits exhaust velocity.

    For example the use of nuclear energy allows much higher temperatures than chemical energy. So a fusion or fission rocket can accelerate to higher velocities before this effect kicks in. Ion engines accelerate particles to such high velocities that they're efficient to extremely high velocities.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2013-04-26 07:27
    Well. In the vacuum of space and assuming good old fashioned Newtonian mechanics, i.e. we are moving somewhat slower than light, I would guess the rockets efficiency stays the same at all speeds. After all, all you are doing is throwing stuff out the back and every action has an equal and opposite reaction as they say. The more stuff you throw out the back the faster you go. (See Newtons laws)

    Given that we are launching from the ground we have air resistance to overcome. That will go up with the square of our speed. So as we accelerate we lose more energy into heat and our efficiency drops.

    That is until the air thins into a vacuum as we reach into space.

    Heck, this is complicated stuff...
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2013-04-26 07:58
    Heater. wrote: »
    Heck, this is complicated stuff...

    Indeed, Wikipedia has a good article on Specific Impulse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_impulse and this diagram shows the relation between Mach number and propulsion performance:

    700px-Specific-impulse-kk-20090105.png

    Not being a rocket scientist I could be murdering this concept. But it isn't that the engine's efficiency changes, but the amount of propellant required to increase velocity changes as velocity increases. If you view efficiency as the amount of propellant consumed per unit of velocity increase, then efficiency does drop as velocity increases.
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2013-04-26 08:14
    Martin_H wrote: »
    The effect I'm thinking about is that as a rocket's velocity approaches the exhaust velocity from the nozzle it becomes hard for the rocket to accelerate. Once it is traveling faster than the exhaust velocity fuel consumption increases dramatically.....

    Maybe this is related (or maybe not (or maybe I'm just out of my mind.)), but I seem to recall looking at film of the Space Shuttle rising at high altitude and seeing that its exhaust gases were actually ascending at high velocity with respect to earth. The relative motions of the Shuttle and its exhaust gases were in opposite directions, of course, but the velocity of the exhaust gases with respect to earth was a different matter.
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2013-04-26 09:47
    Maybe this is related (or maybe not (or maybe I'm just out of my mind.)), but I seem to recall looking at film of the Space Shuttle rising at high altitude and seeing that its exhaust gases were actually ascending at high velocity with respect to earth. The relative motions of the Shuttle and its exhaust gases were in opposite directions, of course, but the velocity of the exhaust gases with respect to earth was a different matter.

    Yes, that is exactly the problem. An ideal rocket accelerates its reaction mass to a velocity greater than its own, this results in the gases being at rest or traveling backwards with respect to Earth. The fact that the reaction mass is traveling forward and upward means the rocket's efficiency is low.
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2013-04-26 11:27
    In space, especially, everything is relative. The absolute velocity is not important. What is important is change in velocity or "delta vee".

    The thing about the rocket approcahing the velocity of its exhaust and therfore becoming less efficient is not correct. If the mass of the rocket did not change due to fuel being burned it would continue accelerating at a constant rate for a constant power setting. The reality is that the mass decreases so a constant power setting yields increased acceleration - or a constant acceleration with decreasing power ie., increased effieciency.
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2013-04-26 11:42
    W9GFO wrote: »
    In space, especially, everything is relative. The absolute velocity is not important. What is important is change in velocity or "delta vee".

    The thing about the rocket approcahing the velocity of its exhaust and therfore becoming less efficient is not correct. If the mass of the rocket did not change due to fuel being burned it would continue accelerating at a constant rate for a constant power setting. The reality is that the mass decreases so a constant power setting yields increased acceleration - or a constant acceleration with decreasing power ie., increased effieciency.

    Gaining efficiency due to loss of mass is true. However, a rocket still has a large amount of propellant during the phase in which it is traveling faster than its exhaust. Here's a quote from the Energy Efficiency section from the linked Wikipedia article:
    Hence the power needed is proportional to the exhaust velocity, with higher velocities needing higher power for the same thrust, causing less energy efficiency per unit thrust.
    However, the total energy for a mission depends on total propellant use, as well as how much energy is needed per unit of propellant. For low exhaust velocity with respect to the mission delta-v, enormous amounts of reaction mass is needed. In fact a very low exhaust velocity is not energy efficient at all for this reason; but it turns out that neither are very high exhaust velocities.
    Theoretically, for a given delta-v, in space, among all fixed values for the exhaust speed the value is the most energy efficient for a specified (fixed) final mass, see energy in spacecraft propulsion.
    However, a variable exhaust speed can be more energy efficient still. For example, if a rocket is accelerated from some positive initial speed using an exhaust speed equal to the speed of the rocket no energy is lost as kinetic energy of reaction mass, since it becomes stationary.

    Update: It's the kinetic energy of the reaction mass relative to Earth and not the rocket that's important. That's energy that would have been available to accelerate the rocket to orbital velocity with respect to the Earth. That's why higher reaction mass velocities are desirable as the rocket travels faster.
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2013-04-26 14:17
    The above is all true but they are comparing efficiency of propellents by comparing their exhaust velocities. It has nothing to do with the velocity of the vehicle compared to the velocity of it's exhaust. For instance, Hydrogen/Oxygen has a higher exhaust velocity than Oxygen/kerosene - it is a more efficient fuel.
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2013-04-26 17:15
    I'm not a subject matter expert so I certainly could be misunderstanding this. But I copied this from an aviation forum because it matches what I've heard previously about exceeding exhaust velocity. The paragraph after the equation describes the increasing fuel costs of exceeding your exhaust velocity.
    The problem with low exhaust velocities (or equivalently, low ISPs), is that the general rocket equation puts a very high cost on exceeding your exhaust velocity by more than a small factor. Basically if you have an initial mass (m0) of your (single stage) rocket and a final mass m1, the difference being the fuel burned, the total delta-V you can obtain is simply:

    delta-V = Ve * ln(m0/m1)

    Where Ve is the exhaust velocity. The "problem" is the logarithm in the second term. If your rocket is 50% fuel (by mass) at takeoff, then the equation is Ve * ln(2/1), or your final velocity will be .69 times your exhaust velocity. If your rocket is 90% fuel, that increases to 2.3 times your exhaust velocity. At 99% fuel, you're still only at 4.6 times Ve. As you might expect, mass ratios that high are structurally problematic, so a single stage vehicle is practice limited to a small multiple of its exhaust velocity. That's where staging comes in - the second and subsequent stages discard the very heavy (relative to the actual size of those upper stages), thus resetting the delta-V limit.

    Consider a three stage rocket with a 100lb payload. Assume that the upper stage has a stage mass* of 100lbs (plus the payload), and a 90% mass fraction, so it's a total of 2000lbs. The middle stage has a payload of 2000lbs (the upper stage plus the payload), and for simplicity, another 2000lbs of structure and whatnot, for a total of 4000lbs. Again assume a mass fraction of 90%, thus a total stage mass of 40,000lbs (the second stage itself, its fuel, the complete upper stage and its fuel, plus the payload). The first stage then has a payload of 40,000 (all the stuff above it), again, we'll assume 40,000lbs in structure, engines, and whatnot, and a mass fraction of 90%. So the total mass of the rocket on the pad is 800,000lbs - 720,000lbs of fuel in the first stage, 40,000lbs of first stage hardware, plus 40,000lbs for the second and third stages and the payload). Now each of those stages can manage an acceleration of 2.3 times Ve, and assuming the Ve (and ISP) is the same for all three stages, will manage a total acceleration of 6.9 times the exhaust velocity.

    If you were trying that with a single stage, you'd need a fuel mass fraction of 99.9%, which is pretty implausible. Consider the 100lb payload, and another 100lb of stage hardware (including tanks, engines, etc.). You'd need 200,000lbs of fuel contained in that 100lbs of stage hardware.

    You'll note that I didn't mention the actual exhaust velocity in any of that, as it basically doesn't matter, except as regards the factor you need to achieve to get your desired final velocity. So if you want to get to 3000m/s and your Ve is 1000m/s, a single stage rocket will need to be 95% fuel at the start. A lower Ve kills you (at a Ve of 750m/s, you'd need to be 98% fuel, at 500m/s you'd need to be 99.75% fuel), but a higher Ve helps enormously (at 1250m/s, you'd only need to be 91% fuel, at 1500m/s, 86% fuel, at 2000ms/s you're down to 78% fuel - which allows 22% of your mass to be structure an payload, which is a huge increase from the 5% in the initial condition).

    Obviously as stages diverge in performance (not only because of fuel/engine types, but the ambient air pressure in which their working, which impacts the expansion ration, and hence efficiency), and you add various sorts of "half" stages (for example, the very common strap on solids), and dealing with things like fighting gravity on a vertical lift-off and atmospheric drag during ascent, this gets a big more complicated.
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2013-04-27 09:06
    I've been sleeping on this and I think I understand where I'm confused. First, W9GFO is correct that efficiency increases as fuel is expelled, which I agreed with, but proceed to contradict because I failed to understand the equation above.

    The exponentially increasing fuel requirements as mach number increases occurs during the early boost phase, not when the craft is actually going fast than its exhaust velocity. The problem is lifting the fuel you'll use later in the flight which is dead weight earlier in the flight. If you fired the rocket out of a gun faster than its exhaust velocity you wouldn't see that cost later in the flight because you skipped the early part of the flight.
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2013-04-29 02:58
    During the boost phase in atmosphere it is the increasing dynamic pressure which reduces efficiency. That is why they reduce throttle while transitioning through max Q. Dynamic pressure increases with velocity but decreases with altitude. Once past max Q the engines are throttled up and the dynamic pressure declines, eventually to zero once out of the atmosphere.

    Also, any rocket engine is going to be more efficient in space than in atmosphere. The atmospheric pressure reduces the amount which the exhaust gasses can expand. Until sufficient altitude is reached, not all of the nozzle is being utilized by the expanding gasses so maximum thrust is not realized until the nozzle design altitude is reached. Additionally, the atmosphere slows down the exhaust as it has to push though it, which reduces efficiency.
  • LawsonLawson Posts: 870
    edited 2013-04-29 08:55
    If you want to get a gut feel of the cruelty of the rocket equation play the demo of Kerbal Space Program for a while. For instance, it's fairly easy to make a single stage to orbit ship in KSP, but a 2-stage ship will be smaller for the same payload and be easier to expand for tougher missions.

    Also, the reason nuclear thermal or laser heat exchanger engines are good isn't because of operating temperature. (chemical engines mostly run hotter) They're good because they can use pure hydrogen as reaction mass. For a given exhaust temperature, a pure hydrogen exhaust at least doubles the specific impulse versus a pure water exhaust. (don't quote me on this, I haven't run the math, the gist is right anyway)

    Lawson
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2013-04-29 22:38
    A TSAT may be of interest and it would not contribute to permanent clutter in space.
    http://humanoidolabs.blogspot.tw/2012/12/temporary-satellite-tsat.html
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