Is this to good to be true? PCB Fab in a Box..
rwgast_logicdesign
Posts: 1,464
Ok first off, I know that there are very reasonably priced board manufactures around for low quantity, such as Seed/ITead Studios, dork bot, and even futurlec in some cases. But doing home PCB's has some advantages, like quickly spinning revisions till you are ready for a board house, cheapest way to do a one of, self DIY satisfaction. The point being is this please don't post something like board houses are the best way to go these days, that is not why I am starting this thread.
Anyways I have done a few toner transfer experiments and I cant even seem to get a through-hole Arduino board to come out very well, which has big traces. I mostly want to do home PCB fab so I can use surface mount chips, including smaller QFP style. I do a lot of my projects on point to point board, as neat as possible, the biggest issue with these are the size! Last night I was researching the photo resist PCB method, because using an iron to transfer toner will never allow me to use QFP chips! But I ran in to this site, PCB "Fab-In-A-Box"
http://www.pcbfx.com/main_site/pages/start_here/overview.html
Basically it uses the toner transfer method along with special paper and a laminating machine. There is pages and pages of explanation on this site about there method, and there special papers which even allow you to silk screen. Apparently they use some type of paper made for ceramics which is coated in something called Dextrin to print the transfer on, this along with there special "foils" and the recommended laminator is suppose to be able to let you produce home PCB with traces down to .005 mills!! The starter kit and laminator can be had for under $200 dollars.
I was wondering if anyone has seen this before, the pages claim that the company has been around since the 90s so they must be doing something right. What do you guys think is this a bunch of snake oil? Basically they just recommend a lamination machine at amazon, that they have tested. Then they supply you with .032 inch thick 1/32 ounce weight copper clad (Im sure you could buy else where) and all of there special paper and foils to do the transfer with. They even have materials and a method to do ribbon PCBs.
Anyways I have done a few toner transfer experiments and I cant even seem to get a through-hole Arduino board to come out very well, which has big traces. I mostly want to do home PCB fab so I can use surface mount chips, including smaller QFP style. I do a lot of my projects on point to point board, as neat as possible, the biggest issue with these are the size! Last night I was researching the photo resist PCB method, because using an iron to transfer toner will never allow me to use QFP chips! But I ran in to this site, PCB "Fab-In-A-Box"
http://www.pcbfx.com/main_site/pages/start_here/overview.html
Basically it uses the toner transfer method along with special paper and a laminating machine. There is pages and pages of explanation on this site about there method, and there special papers which even allow you to silk screen. Apparently they use some type of paper made for ceramics which is coated in something called Dextrin to print the transfer on, this along with there special "foils" and the recommended laminator is suppose to be able to let you produce home PCB with traces down to .005 mills!! The starter kit and laminator can be had for under $200 dollars.
I was wondering if anyone has seen this before, the pages claim that the company has been around since the 90s so they must be doing something right. What do you guys think is this a bunch of snake oil? Basically they just recommend a lamination machine at amazon, that they have tested. Then they supply you with .032 inch thick 1/32 ounce weight copper clad (Im sure you could buy else where) and all of there special paper and foils to do the transfer with. They even have materials and a method to do ribbon PCBs.
Comments
Have you looked at something like expressPCB?
http://www.expresspcb.com/ExpressPCBHtm/Costs.htm
ExpressPCB is probably okay if you don't mind learning and using (and being somewhat locked into), their proprietary CAD software - and you don't mind paying their relatively high price for the faster delivery service.
The more I look at ITead, Seeed Studio, OSHPark, etc, the better they look. Just start piping stuff to them.
I was just wondering if some of you guys ever used Makepcb.com to get pcb printed ??
You can get 3 small boards for under $5 shipped.
As you pay per sq mm, so the smaller you make the cheaper it get.
They are made in USA and very high quility.
Diptrace gerbers are just fine.
the copper layers should just be name 'top' and 'bottom', the other default Diptrace names are ok.
Interesting. Will it work with EAGLE Light?
@tonyp, WOW there was a thread a bit ago that prompted me to check OSHPark and I remmber thinking it was kind of expensive compared to Seed/ITead 5$ shipped? How big is a small board at least 1x2inches?
@ElectricAye, While there process seems tedious, they claim it takes 8 minutes! The few times I have tried to do an iron on toner transfer it has taken me close to 5 house without drilling and the board turned out to have problems! If this process takes even 30 minutes it is by far the least hassle way to do a home PCB. ExpressPCB is not bad, there software is easy but there are much better deals out there.
I always see all these nice home made PCB's on hack a day, it makes me sort of jealous I guess! Doing nice point to point work takes me days and days, right now im working on a board that doesn't even have voltage regulation built on, It has a Propeller, Arduino, 8 channel ADC, Audio amp, and stackable i2c bus (with ds1307 module), and all the programming headers. This board has been in the works for a few hours a day every other day or so for over a week! If I had a way to spin a PCB at home in 8 minutes that would definitely save some time, and look very nice compared to the cleanest point to point work!
I think the best way to do a home PCB is a CNC mill at this point, but one that is capable is way to much money. For me the home PCB is mostly about turn around time, then price but hey if oshpark only costs 5 bucks that is only a hair over what cheap copper clad costs!
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php/137896-Making-PCBs-at-home?highlight=leon+pcb+home
10.11x18.06 mm pcb: 46cents each!
Minimum 3, and you also choose 6 or 9 or 12.
I ordered 12 and it came to $5.60 Shipped (first class mail from Oregon)
And they offer medium run orders after you tested your prototype ($1 per square inch, 150 square inch minimum)
http://oshpark.com/
I've used the Direct Transfer Toner method many times with pretty good success.
No matter what, small traces are almost impossible using that technique.
The company you are speaking of started out as DynaArt Designs.
The largest trouble you will have in attempting to use the Direct Transfer Toner method will be
getting the Laser Toner to adhere to your circuit board.
The next largest trouble you will have is getting the paper you have ironed to your circuit board to
release from the board without taking the toner with it.
The original Toner Transfer paper with what was at the time called Sugar Coating, released from the board
really well.
after ironing and letting it cool for about 30 minutes or so, putting the board and paper in a water bath for about
5 minutes would release the paper without disturbing the toner that is stuck to the board.
This is a very finicky process.
I would try using the photo sensitive type of system.
I'm planning on using that for my next One-Off prototype boards.
Jameco sells a kit.
Many reviews for the photo sensitive process tell me that it is a Much better system than toner transfer.
My only concern with the Photo Sensitive boards is that I can't find any specs on the shelf life of the
photoresist sensitive boards before they become unusable.
That's just my 2 cents worth.
That's crazy. I gotta try this. Thanks!
@Leon thanks for the link to your method I think I have seen that post before.
Like I said I was originally looking in to photo resist etching kits, Anyone interested in DIY PCBs who has not seen this article should take a look, she uses the photo resist method with great results
http://quinndunki.com/blondihacks/?p=835
The only reason I was looking for a full kit, is because the article above uses kinkos for a lot of the supplies and printing, and my local copy shop is awful. I am definitely not opposed to photo resist etching as a home brew method the results I have seen are awesome, but the PCB in a box thing looks like it can provide results on par with photo resist with a lot less effort.
About six months or so, I've found.
I second Tony's recommendation. The Oshpark PCBs are higher quality than SparkFun's Batch PCB. Pretty easy way to have board made.
Only good thing with diy pcb, you could get them done in 1 day, but I learned just to have a constant log of pcbs to
be made and I work on one while the others are being made.
Oshparks manufacture don't allow milled plated holes (for the price), you should draw them on your board outline instead.
If you don't there will just be a small starter hole !
You could make one big round hole if you have the room, but milled holes looks better.
You will still probably get the milled holes through-platted anyway, so this rule may go away soon,
Diptrace don't have an option to export milled holes on board outline, so you would have to draw them manually.