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Laptop hard drive takes a dive — Parallax Forums

Laptop hard drive takes a dive

Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
edited 2013-03-03 05:32 in General Discussion
Yesterday I completed some hardware improvements to my robot arm and today I was all set to start my next project. I turned on my laptop and partway though boot I got the dreaded non-bootable device error. I booted with the Windows XP CD to run the recovery utility and it could not mount the drive. Fortunately I backed up recently and using the Linux rescue USB stick I was able to pull off the remaining files.

But no repair utility seems willing to touch the drive. I even tried a Windows reinstall and it won't work either. So it looks like I'm in the market for a new laptop as this one is so old replacement of the hard drive doesn't make sense. But this wastes a holiday weekend of robot projects.

Computers, I can't stand them. I wish there was a way to program robots without them.
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Comments

  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-02-17 12:38
    That sucks...
    Martin_H wrote: »
    Computers... I wish there was a way to program robots without them.

    Well, you can just color in the paper disks on this one to program a path...

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-OWI-Binary-Player-Robot-OWI-9875-NIB-/390436188945?pt=Educational_Toys_US&hash=item5ae7cf7311
  • xanaduxanadu Posts: 3,347
    edited 2013-02-17 12:41
    I feel your pain buddy. Good that you had a backup :)

    I have spent this entire weekend repairing a server for a big CAD shop (interior design) that hasn't had an IT person in about 7 years. It all started with a popped capacitor on their server. Someone on site rebooted it and it wouldn't turn back on. This is the worst popped cap I have ever seen.

    http://imageshack.us/f/94/img1593r.jpg/
    http://imageshack.us/f/507/img1594cy.jpg/
    http://imageshack.us/f/515/img1592t.jpg/

    Let's run down what this "server" has on it.

    0. Non-server hardware across the board (P4/478b/1GB RAM/2x250GB SATA) no reporting setup and no BMC or equivalent
    1. 12MB free on boot/only partition
    2. Dynamic Disks software mirroring (w/ extra barf sauce and stale cheese topping)
    3. One of two HDDs failed and clicking loudly
    4. SBS w2k3, Active Directory, Exchange, FTP, fileserver, Sharepoint, and VPN with all company files on there
    5. No system state or other backup to be found
    6. PSU fan seizure
    7. A nice green status light on the front

    Everything needs to be recovered offline. I did try replacing the cap and still no boot. Luckily there was at least a little magic smoke. Now I'm converting to a hardware RAID 1 on a temp server and re-deploying the entire mess just so they can work on a federal holiday tomorrow.

    All this over a $0.25 capacitor, their lack of priorities, or my inability to learn to stop opening cans of worms on Friday?

    End of rant.
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2013-02-17 12:47
    erco wrote: »

    That's neat, I wonder how IK get colored?
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2013-02-17 12:52
    xanadu wrote: »
    All this over a $0.25 capacitor, their lack of priorities, or my inability to learn to stop opening cans of worms on Friday?

    End of rant.

    That was an epic popped capacitor. It's worthy of a Mythbusters episode. Sorry to hear you get bogged down in that mess.
  • xanaduxanadu Posts: 3,347
    edited 2013-02-17 12:59
    Martin_H wrote: »
    That was an epic popped capacitor. It's worthy of a Mythbusters episode. Sorry to hear you get bogged down in that mess.

    Thanks, I feel a lot better having shared it with someone that would understand :)
  • RDL2004RDL2004 Posts: 2,554
    edited 2013-02-17 13:34
    Hard drives are one of the few things inside a laptop that are actually repairable replaceable without too much difficulty. How old is this laptop? If it's new enough that uses SATA a decent quality new disk would only be around $65. If doesn't, then it's probably time for a trip to Walmart.
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2013-02-17 13:38
    Yoy could alwasy pull the drive and using a $25.00 adapter connect it to another Windows PC via USB to see if you can get the disk scanned and repaired.
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2013-02-17 13:50
    There's usually a diagnostic test in the BIOS.
    If that fails the HDD, then nothing can save it.

    If the machine has SATA, replace it with a SSD and enjoy a decent speed upgrade.

    If it doesn't have SATA, yeah, then it's probably time to junk it.
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2013-02-17 13:53
    I suppose I will run the BIOS test and see what sort of interface the drive has. It is at least six years old because it predates Windows Vista.

    Update: it is a Lenovo X60 and here are the specs

    http://support.lenovo.com/en_US/detail.page?LegacyDocID=MIGR-67418

    It says drive type ATA
  • xanaduxanadu Posts: 3,347
    edited 2013-02-17 14:15
    That's SATA, I would think an X60 (given the battery and RAM are in good shape) is worth at least trying to replace the drive. As Gadgetman said an SSD would really breathe some new life into it, and since you're good at backing up your files you don't need to worry about failure recovery. I have really good luck with Intel SSDs. I do not think the X60 has anything other than SMART in the BIOS support for checking your HDD.

    You'd want to do a linear verify, If your BIOS has an ATA/ACHI mode put it in ATA mode, then download a diagnostic utility like UBCD. http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/ there's a ton of different free ones. If you don't have another computer to burn the disk you can always use a Windows CD and enter the recovery mode and at command prompt run 'chkdsk c: /r' and wait for the results. If by ANY chance there is even one file on that bad drive you need, do not run chkdsk it will only make things worse. A read only linear verify would be the best bet in that scenario.

    You're going to want to test the laptop as much as you can, CPU, RAM, Video, and assuming the battery is in good shape then I'd decide if it were worth fixing. The worst thing would be investing in a nice 2.5" SATA drive then having some other issue with it. Unless of course you can use that new SATA drive elsewhere.
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2013-02-17 14:30
    You mean IDE / AHCI ?

    IDE(Also called 'Legacy' on some) is for use with older OSes that doesn't handle SATA drives natively.
    AHCI is the native mode for SATA drives, and on 'spinning platter' type drives, sing this setting can give a noticeable speed increase.
    (WinXP can use this mode if you install a driver for it)

    The reason its so much faster is that it allows for 'out of order' transfers.
    (The logic on the HDD decides the order in which it fulfllls read requests)

    Vista and Win7 both handles AHCI without additional drivers.

    It's NOT a good idea to change this setting on a HDD with data on it as the drive may end up being 'remapped' afterwards.
    (When running in IDE mode, it has to obey ancient limitations built into BIOS, and the way to do that is to remap the drive)
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-02-17 14:34
    I've had a few drives fail, and after I put a new drive in, I can always install the old one as a slave and yank the data off. Haven't had a catastrophic failure yet... DOH, did I actually just say that?

    NOTHING can go wrong now...
  • RDL2004RDL2004 Posts: 2,554
    edited 2013-02-17 14:55
    Bear in mind if you decide to go SSD, you'll pay twice as much for half the capacity, and the X60 is probably only SATA 1.5GBs so you won't get the full speed that the drive is capable of. However, the SSD should be much more durable and the speed will still flat out blow you away. The new computer I built last fall is running Win 7 64 bit and boots to the desktop in less than 12 seconds from pushing the power button, and most of that is the BIOS starting up, Windows itself actually only takes about 3 seconds.
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2013-02-17 15:12
    I ran the BIOS RAM and HD tests. RAM passed, but the HD got "Read verification error: call for service". The battery capacity isn't what it once was, but I use it mostly plugged in.

    I'll have to consider if I want to fix it. I don't have any other use for a laptop hard drive and if it is still broken afterwards then that would have been a waste. However, I can boot it off USB and run Linux off a pen drive and it seems to work, so it seems to work otherwise.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-02-17 17:27
    Just today I saw a Win8 laptop at Walmart in the low 200's IIRC...
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,451
    edited 2013-02-17 18:45
    Backing S-L-O-W-L-Y away from erco....
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-02-17 20:25
    @lr: Sure, you can try to say no.

    But considering that the OS now costs $120 (for the upgrade), that's like paying just ~$100 for the laptop hardware.

    That's an erco-approved deal. I may have to go back and take a closer look and report back. Today's Walmart shopping trip was singularly focused on Disney princess dresses. The twins are in full "Princess and the Frog" mode.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2013-02-17 20:46
    So Windows just shuts you out of the damaged/failed hard drive; whereas Linux at least allows you to download an image of the data for the sake of retrieval and salvage.

    I wonder if Windows will even let you install a new harddisk without paying another license fee. With MS support is somewhat of a 'gotcha', with Linux it is actually helpful.

    In Linux, run S.M.A.R.T to see if the hard disk can be reformated or requires a replacement. On laptops, a good bump often damages sectors of the hard disk. If it is possible to salvage and reformat, then you can use the same Windows to reinstall without getting into a dialogue with MS as to why you have a different hard disk on a registered license.

    Also, Seagate and Western Digital provide their own hard disk service and recovery software that is downloadable and generally free. It does an excellent job, but is very, very slow in doing so.
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2013-02-17 21:45
    A modern HDD has several 'spare' tracks that the OS can't reach. Whenever the onboard controller detects a bad sector or track, it copies the contents over to one of the spares and does a logical remapping.
    If a HDD starts giving read errors without first having been exposed to 'force', it mens the spare tracks are all used up. That HDD is then at the end of its life.
    A HDD reporting errors after a shock, though... May still have unused spare tracks, but has suffered cattrofic damage to some tracks and the data could never be copied off. That sucks, and the HDD still needs replacing. Oh, and it will get worse... Fragments knocked loose when the heads bounced on the platters will contaminate it and make the heads bump again and gain...

    About Windows not starting and so on.
    It's quite possible that the damaged ares contain one or more files that Windows needs during startup.
    '
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2013-02-17 23:01
    Windows messages can be misleading. When one is shut out of the hard disk it could simply arise from a hard disk sector or file critical to Window's boot procedure.

    It all begins with Windows desire to dominate the hard disk and to have complete control over it. The results are that Windows is more finicky about boots. A simple voltage transient might be the source of a complete shut out, or shutting down the computer during one of the rather tedious update runs.

    IN other words, MS makes it very easy for the service people to just sell you a new hard disk when you don't need one. Try the actual manufacturer's software before you decide the harddisk is a total loss.
  • AJ-9000AJ-9000 Posts: 52
    edited 2013-02-18 00:58
    Have you tried pressing the blue button to access the recovery system ?
    I have a X40 modle Thinkpad, what I did in anticipation of a hardrive problem is after making a backup of the recovery software to disks (using the bundled software) I bought a 2nd hardrive changed out the hardrives and restored the new drive with the recovery disks. I would be cautious getting a SSD because these Thinkpad1.8" hardrives arn't standard and don't work in USB external 1.8" drive kits as far as I know.
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2013-02-18 03:22
    1.8" HDDs?

    They use what's known as 'Micro-SATA' interface. It's the same as a normal SATA interface, but scaled down a bit.
    (HP use them in their 12" EliteBook series)
    Slow things... REALLY slow things...

    Wouldn't be surprised if his USB-enclosure fits one of them:
    http://dx.com/p/1-8-sata-usb-2-0-hdd-enclosure-with-leather-case-silver-56272
    They also have a load of adapters for conneting up these drives to normal SATA controllers.

    That is, unless they managed to get a manufaturer to create a standard just for them, which I really doubt.
  • RDL2004RDL2004 Posts: 2,554
    edited 2013-02-18 04:44
    Apparently not all Thinkpads use 1.8" drives. This data sheet at ibm.com indicates that the X60 uses a standard 2.5" drive:

    http://www.ibm.com/common/ssi/cgi-bin/ssialias?infotype=AN&subtype=CA&htmlfid=897/ENUS106-010&appname=lenovous&language=en

    Hard drives wear out and stop working. That process starts the minute it is first turned on. This one is over 6 years old.

    edit:

    Officially, any time you reinstall Windows XP it has to be reactivated. If the only thing different is the hard drive then the normal automatic activation is all you should have to do. There is a way you can avoid needing to reactivate after a reinstall, but only if there are no hardware changes. I have done it both ways several times.
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2013-02-18 05:03
    AJ-9000 wrote: »
    Have you tried pressing the blue button to access the recovery system ?

    Yes and that fails to load as well. I think the recovery partition is damaged as well.
  • RDL2004RDL2004 Posts: 2,554
    edited 2013-02-18 08:22
    Computers can be so weird. This morning I decide to change to a different keyboard on this machine, a 10 year old Athlon 64 that I use for programming, internet and sometimes playing older games. The keyboard I wanted to use is a PS/2 so I had to reboot for it to be recognized. I went ahead and just did a complete shut down and restart, because it had been months since it had been turned off and I figured Windows could use a fresh start. Well, guess what? It wouldn't come back on.

    I tried about 20 times to get it to restart but, even though it actually made it to the desktop a few times, it just wouldn't keep running. Since it seemed like probably a power supply issue, and since I had an extra one laying around from the Core2Duo that conked out last October, I took the old power supply out, stuck the other one in and yep, that was all it was. Back in business after 2 hours of aggravation. I really didn't want to waste the morning working on a computer. What a pain.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-02-18 09:03
    Computers are a hobby all by themselves. Every operation (adding a program, deleting a program) gets into the registry and slows things down. I know a lot of people who insist on doing a clean Winblows installation every year to clean up their drive. I suspect it keeps the computer running faster, but whether it improves overall reliability remains to be seen. Certainly it takes considerable time to reset everything, unless they simply reload a saved image of a freshly-restored drive.
  • RDL2004RDL2004 Posts: 2,554
    edited 2013-02-18 09:32
    Computers are a hobby all by themselves.

    Tell me about it. I have eight of them, four purchased and four built by me, going all the way back to an IBM PS/1 486DX2-50 from 1993. Three of them are used on a daily basis, a laptop I rarely use, and the rest are fully functional and useable to some degree.
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2013-02-18 09:34
    erco wrote: »
    Computers are a hobby all by themselves.

    For me it's more of a full time job. I have two kids and a spouse who use various computers and something or other is always going wrong. This is of course on top of my day job where I work with them all day. I'm hoping Chromebooks catch on so I can outsource the system administration tasks.
  • frank freedmanfrank freedman Posts: 1,983
    edited 2013-02-18 09:50
    Try a product called spin rite. I used it a few years ago to recover most of a fire damaged HDD. It seems to have some interesting tricks in its bag. May be worth a try if you have anything irreplaceable on the drive. Will the drive even allow a forensic backup?

    FF

    Martin_H wrote: »
    Yesterday I completed some hardware improvements to my robot arm and today I was all set to start my next project. I turned on my laptop and partway though boot I got the dreaded non-bootable device error. I booted with the Windows XP CD to run the recovery utility and it could not mount the drive. Fortunately I backed up recently and using the Linux rescue USB stick I was able to pull off the remaining files.

    But no repair utility seems willing to touch the drive. I even tried a Windows reinstall and it won't work either. So it looks like I'm in the market for a new laptop as this one is so old replacement of the hard drive doesn't make sense. But this wastes a holiday weekend of robot projects.

    Computers, I can't stand them. I wish there was a way to program robots without them.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,256
    edited 2013-02-18 10:05
    Martin_H wrote: »
    For me it's more of a full time job. I have two kids and a spouse who use various computers and something or other is always going wrong. This is of course on top of my day job where I work with them all day. I'm hoping Chromebooks catch on so I can outsource the system administration tasks.

    Yup. With multiple users, who knows what iffy websites were visited, what programs were downloaded, etc.

    That's one reason I didn't use the controller included with the Ebay plywood robot arm. I already have at least 6 different chip programmers on my computer and I didn't want to clutter up the system with something I'd only use once. Did you use it, Martin_H?
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