Teach me something new.....no more blinky LED.
eiplanner
Posts: 112
People that can, should teach. People wanting to learn should be able to find the teachings.
I got into Parallax a few years ago by stumbling onto a basic stamp kit at Radio Shack. I was thrilled and excited to have a new hands-on hobby that could educate me in the process. After following every lesson in that book and then all the ones offered on Parallaxs website my enthusiasm began to wane because I had learned a lot but not enough. I turned to the forum and the OBEX for more info to learn from. I found that there is loads of info but most of it is incomplete and scattered widely around the site. It became sort of a chore to pick a subject then spend hours and ours digging up info on how to accomplish it. Dont get me wrong, the Forum is a fantastic place to go with specific questions and get qualified answers. But; what if you dont even know what questions to ask? Ones education stops because they dont know how to continue it.
There are lots of knowledgeable people here on the forums that have loads they can share with others. I would love to see a Lessons and Tutorials forum put in place here. I know there is an education and a projects forum but these are more question and answer threads than anything. And the OBEX has a lot of great software but the annotations are a little bit difficult to follow and dont really provide an complete picture of the how and why.
It would be nice if there was a place to go that had individual lessons based on very specific devices or components that were geared more like the separate lessons in the texts. Im not saying people should write books but maybe just short and whole tutorials on how to do something that they are an expert on or at least very proficient with. I picture a thread that is a post completed Lesson only thread with no questions or comments sections. All of the questions could still be answered in the forums that already exist. Maybe each lesson could be numbered and always kept in the chronological order it was posted so that a person could easily find or go back to it whenever needed. Right now, information is scattered everywhere and difficult to find later when you realize you saw it somewhere when you didnt need it but now that you do, you cant find it.
Im definitely open for debate or discussion in general on the subject and fully hope people will give it a thought. I just know, for me, I need the step by step spoon feeding of information and processes like its given in the texts. Components used, wiring diagrams, coding explanations the whole works. Subjects could be as wide ranging as the knowledge base is. Im sure, for example, that there are experts on amplifier circuits, power supplies, analog to digital conversion, video, motors, etc Things that have a greater value than the blinky LED. (I love the blinky LED but am looking for more)
I got into Parallax a few years ago by stumbling onto a basic stamp kit at Radio Shack. I was thrilled and excited to have a new hands-on hobby that could educate me in the process. After following every lesson in that book and then all the ones offered on Parallaxs website my enthusiasm began to wane because I had learned a lot but not enough. I turned to the forum and the OBEX for more info to learn from. I found that there is loads of info but most of it is incomplete and scattered widely around the site. It became sort of a chore to pick a subject then spend hours and ours digging up info on how to accomplish it. Dont get me wrong, the Forum is a fantastic place to go with specific questions and get qualified answers. But; what if you dont even know what questions to ask? Ones education stops because they dont know how to continue it.
There are lots of knowledgeable people here on the forums that have loads they can share with others. I would love to see a Lessons and Tutorials forum put in place here. I know there is an education and a projects forum but these are more question and answer threads than anything. And the OBEX has a lot of great software but the annotations are a little bit difficult to follow and dont really provide an complete picture of the how and why.
It would be nice if there was a place to go that had individual lessons based on very specific devices or components that were geared more like the separate lessons in the texts. Im not saying people should write books but maybe just short and whole tutorials on how to do something that they are an expert on or at least very proficient with. I picture a thread that is a post completed Lesson only thread with no questions or comments sections. All of the questions could still be answered in the forums that already exist. Maybe each lesson could be numbered and always kept in the chronological order it was posted so that a person could easily find or go back to it whenever needed. Right now, information is scattered everywhere and difficult to find later when you realize you saw it somewhere when you didnt need it but now that you do, you cant find it.
Im definitely open for debate or discussion in general on the subject and fully hope people will give it a thought. I just know, for me, I need the step by step spoon feeding of information and processes like its given in the texts. Components used, wiring diagrams, coding explanations the whole works. Subjects could be as wide ranging as the knowledge base is. Im sure, for example, that there are experts on amplifier circuits, power supplies, analog to digital conversion, video, motors, etc Things that have a greater value than the blinky LED. (I love the blinky LED but am looking for more)
Comments
Learning takes dedication and practice. To expect the knowledgeable they to write tutorials and somehow satisfy your needs is a pipe dream.
There's a place that has this kind of information, it called school. There are also books and magazines.
If you want to learn something new, just do it. If you get lost along the way, ask a question.
Have you seen Jeff's Propeller Cookbook? It's not a bad place to get started doing more stuff, though it's oriented toward the Proto Board. I don't think we've got anywhere near the volume of stuff for Quickstart as we do Proto Board.
It's always a tough balance. Producing that stuff takes time and it's often a balance between one's own projects and contributing back for others to pick up and join us!
BTW, what have ye gotteth against blinky LEDs, Brother? Hello World?
@eiplanner: One way to combat this is to make some friends. Start asking a lot of stuff! People here will jump in and before you know it you are doing lots of stuff.
If parallax is willing to add this sticky post then I would be willing to volunteer my time to organize the index as long as the forum members are willing to help by sending me a pm with links to posts they find helpful.
You have no idea of my involvement with this stuff because I don't always post. I've got bins full of nearly everything Parallax makes and I have worked with most of them. Researching how to get them to work. Making my own proto boards. Trying to duplicate others projects. Developing ideas of how to integrate the prop into a real world system. Etc...etc...etc... I do read books, manuals, datasheets and all of that too. School is too slow paced and not specific enough. If my local tech school would do a full on propeller course, I'd be glad to take it. Until then, I'll be coming here for my education if that's OK with you.
There is nothing in the world as effective as hands on step by step instruction. The Lessons and Tutorials were very easy for me to follow and learn something from. I'm sure I am not the only one that thinks this.
@erco - Yes! Thanks for the pointer to the 'learn' pages. Those are short, sweet, and to the point objects. Just like what I am speaking of. I'm glad that site exists. I will be checking it often.
@potatohead - No, I don't think I've seen the cookbook. Where can I find it?
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?96298-Updated-10-9-07-The-Propeller-Cookbook-v1.4
Google doesn't always do that well as the name space "Propeller" is somewhat crowded. Do this:
"site:parallax.com [your search terms]" for very good results.
I have to comment on what Mike wrote. He's right about it. People can and do produce tutorial stuff and that's good. But, it's really hard to hear "make more for me, because..." without also hearing about those things people are doing to help themselves too, just like the people who wrote the tutorials did. There is a synergy there that is hard to ignore.
Again, we all have the time we have. We all need to know stuff and we all share stuff in the hopes that others can benefit and we all have goals too.
There are a few things about that "please write this request" you are advocating for that warrant some additional consideration.
One is when people get inspired to help. Lots of reasons for that. Maybe they are in the mood, or there is a shared interest, or they have material fresh at hand... so there is that.
The other one is huge, and that is it is significantly easier to help in direct response to something. It's a whole lot harder to just produce stuff that will be helpful in a more general sense.
In the first case, that's the forum doing what it does best, and it's rewarding for all parties and often quite lean and the feedback is motivating as is reaching shared goals. This happens regularly.
In the second case, that's work. Seriously. Not only is it work, it's often a lot of work and once somebody entertains that work they often see more work fall their way as it's very easy to take a labor of love and attach all sorts of expectations to it, rapidly draining the love out of the labor, leaving just labor. People can get burned out on that, giving more than they receive in like kind and it doesn't go well for them, or the community when that happens.
I myself have done some of that work, and I get emails thanking me for it regularly. I also get emails asking for lots of stuff --not trivial stuff, work type stuff and here I sit wanting to advance my own project, or learn something I don't know and that competes all the time.
This must be a give and take. Ask and ye will very often receive, but you must feed that same ecosystem you draw from, or it withers and that's not good for anyone.
When I select topics and questions to labor on --and make no mistake, it's labor, not just some happy fun that can be knocked out in a bit, I do it because I'm either on the learning path and the work helps (currently true for the monitor document I'm authoring that I have many, many hours into), or I'm seeing somebody really getting after it who could use a push over the edge. And by getting after it, I see questions, their own efforts reading, seeking, etc... and I know they are not just asking for somebody else to produce their project instructions for them.
And that may seem snide or elitist or maybe just crappy, but that balance between having fun getting stuff done and laboring so others can get stuff done is not trivial and really does need to be considered and valued properly or lots of good things break down.
Re: Reading.
One tech book a month for years since about age 14. Never miss a month, ever. Live it, know it, do it, benefit from it, share it. That's the culture Mike is speaking to. Nobody says you have to do this, but when there is a lot of calls for documentation, count on people also citing that ethic being out there, viable, possible, practical, effective too. (Actually not always tech books, philosophy, science, technology, computing in many forms, business, etc... all to stay relevant and keep skills marketable.)
Note: You got your answer as to where the Cookbook is, but not without also supplying you the tool for the answer. It's part of that ethic. Good for you, me, everybody.
I've been compiling materials (you might find interesting) which will be included in the next release here.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/qwhixzvtlrvp1u1/_rcN6Ncv27/Schematics
Jeff
@Tymkrs - I have been to that site many times and like what you do very much. Haven't checked there in a while though. Thanks for the reminder.
There already is something similar: http://www.parallax.com/Store/Books/Propeller/tabid/171/CategoryID/45/List/0/SortField/0/Level/a/ProductID/637/Default.aspx
In any case, I think you'll find this is a common problem the further you get from the mainstream. Try looking for a tutorial on interfacing to the MS5611 or a tutorial on the particulars of using quaternions with quadrotors. You won't find any. That's just due to the economics of it: those who understand the advanced material can get a better return by using their knowledge and advancing their work, than writing a tutorial on how to do it. Unless, of course, the target audience is sufficiently large (which for most things is not the case).
ps: I don't think Mike was being antagonistic, and that you interpreted his post differently than he meant. It's difficult to convey tone via text, so I find it better to assume the best about each post.
Asking isn't. But getting what you asked for? It depends if the cost to generate this tutorial material is greater than the returns on the material. For volunteers, it's a fairly high cost of time with no monetary return, only community recognition. You might get more community recognition if you made a cool project instead, so most volunteers probably do that. For Parallax? It's about waiting for the Propeller 2 and making do until then.
That one was fun. Sadly, none of us but for desilva really went the distance on that and it is still needed. Life got in the way for me and I want to give it another go. I love PASM. Labor of love there for sure. Good to hear you got something good out of it. Means a lot.
@OP: Please don't take anything I wrote to mean you were not helping yourself. I only wanted to communicate some of how I see things work in the hope it adds value. Keep after it! This stuff is fun, but can be a PITA at times!
If only they would be so kind as to write a manual for the Spinnerette. That would be great.
Oh wait, apparently pipe dreams can come true.
@eiplanner, In case you're not aware, Mike G. wrote the above linked to manual. I found his post kind of ironic (though I think I understand what he meant).
I myself got tired of repeatedly looking up old threads I wanted to reference so I started an index (see signature). Post #3 of the index lists some Propeller turorials.
I think it would be great if others did something similar. I'd really like to see the posts others think are important.
blinky led apps are great for proving all the bits can talk to each other
- but you are correct that it can be better to have more 'full device' examples, even if those are multiple copies.
A good example is in another thread, where someone asked about PWM at highish speeds.
The Prop AN001 has a PWM example, and the engine of that is just 4 opcodes long - so it is very close to blinky.
What is missing, is the natural extension, or next-step, of a companion example of how many similar PWM channels can one pack into a Prop, with params ?
Some companies are extending their business, on such examples - eg the Pro-programmed micros used as USB-Serial devices, from Silabs, Microchip, Freescale and others.
Just maybe, that is what the Parallax learn site is and will become. See, I've learned something new already by making this post.
And to MikeG and others reading this post. I have the highest regards and respect for Mike and all that he has done, is doing, and will do. As I stated earlier, I've followed Mike for years. There's no ill will here. Not from my side. (I did feel his reply was a tad harsh and unexpected) It's always the people that contribute most that feel the least appreciation.
I understand that I am a draw on the community right now. I can contribute a great dinner recipe or two but in terms of electronics, I'm still an infant. All I can contribute is a pile of smoked components.
I'll go a step further. Props to ei for requesting more Parallax-specific info instead of jumping ship to Arduino or some other processor. I consider his request a nudge in the direction toward "information consolidation", which is always a good thing.
I feel software should be so easy parents could teach it to their kids. I have a project working towards this.
I have found that when explicit instructions are presented, engineers will follow them (to some extent) otherwise they will do whatever they interpret as appropriate. This leads to variance in quality of results. It should be easy or at least possible to reproduce an an exact result, if desired.
The real power and advantage of the prop is the ability to use software peripherals. My project is all about a tool to generate software drivers with minimal effort, and maximum engineering.
This project is mostly documentation for my part. The cost will always be greater than any conceivable benefit to the producers, but we do because it needs to be done, and it might make the world a better place. Most of the tutorial are in place, they only need to be refined by feed back from users. But most users are very shy, so progress is slow.
Thanks for being here. Please do not get any of us wrong. The more the merrier. When you can and are inclined, we all would love to see what you get done and contributing can be as simple as telling us of your adventures, if nothing else. I personally really enjoy that.
Like I said, no worries man. Get after it! This stuff is just fun.
***I'm not a licensed, professional electrician, but I can pretty easily do the work and pass inspection. Tell me about it: A little "help" sometimes inflates into a major league project. Personally, I can't stand non code stuff, just because I want it all safe and modern so nothing I did ever kills anybody, and that's how it starts...
Now, if you really want to learn something, pick an idea and run with it. Maybe you want to map out all the wiring in a house. Why not develop a device you can place in the breaker box to receive a coded signal and a transmitter so that for each plug or fixture you can sen a unique code keyed to your list. With the prop you could easily have say 30 channels to receive on and thereby map out 30 circuits rather quickly. Worth doing? Don't know. I was a shipboard electrician. Circuits were documented in excruciating detail. But the idea is to go down roads less traveled. The blinky path is well worn, to really learn something, you have to read, research and apply what you learn. Always ask, just remember some answers take a bit longer.
FF
Having generated this discussion today and receiving some good ideas of where to look next for info, I have spent rest of this day browsing these sites and other sites linked by those sites and so on. I am amazed at how many GOOD indexs there are that I never knew existed. Ran into Graham Stabler's Index and it looks very cleanly laid out with lots of excellent newbie learning threads. There were several others and each index links to other indexes so I think I have some of what I am looking for to go learn from for a while.
A small drawback of going about it this way is that some of the posts are really old at this point and I feel like newer versions with better methods have been developed since some of these were posted. Some house cleaning on a few of these indexes may be in order to keep them current. I clicked on several links that didn't even exist anymore. Its going to take me posting a lot of questions concerning the current relevancy of a program. I can still easily learn from the older versions but would prefer to be running the latest and greatest whenever I begin to develop on my own. But that will be later and when I do, I'll just come out and ask the forum if I am running the newest stuff. Sounds easy enough to me.
Thanks to all of you that have pointed me in some new directions today. I think it's just what I needed. I've also decided that I am personally gonna try to remain committed to logging and tracking my own experiences in a manner that I can learn from them and then be able to share with others as simply and easily as possible.
That was the best class I ever took. They walked us over to the library and showed us all the information available - how to use it - how to research various topics. And that was a LONG time ago...
These days we have the internet and search engines. A similar how to learn class (do-it-yourself) would be to read the google.com search help pages. And maybe search google.com for the words: how to use google
One interesting little feature of google is advanced search, which appears at the bottom of the page, after a search. Click on that, then you can enter a specific web site to search. Like "forums.parallax.com". So a search of the forums for Android would be like the following after using advanced search...
Android site:forums.parallax.com
So that would search this specific forum. Also you can search for specific phrases using quotes (" ") or use a "+" so the search must contain a certain word. Lots of tricks people can use to find specific things with google! So you could have a more specific search like this...
+"easy bluetooth" Android site:forums.parallax.com
Then I have been involved with research projects where there is no instruction manual! No one has written one yet. That is quite challenging to say the least. Also the smart people who work on and design these projects don't like to write instruction manuals. For software, sometimes the code is the instruction manual!
Anyway with that said, there are some things for which very little is written. Also sometimes companies have proprietary products and keep the details secret. But with a good knowledge of google tricks, you can sometimes find things here and there on the internet. For example automotive manufacturers keep their engine computers secret, but I found this little gem with the help of google...
http://www.megasquirt.info
Hope that helps!
My own start was with one of Chip's VGA objects. It was the ideal beginning for me. In one evening had a useful platform (including monitor, keyboard, and SSR), useful Spin skills, and a profound appreciation for the Propeller. Mastering PASM was a bit more involved, but it too was guided by specific functionality I wished to implement.
There are plenty of great starting points depending on your interests.
Jeff