First O-scope

potatohead · 2012-12-10 11:49

A good friend of mine is getting into this stuff on a level deep enough to warrant having a scope. My question is basically what would you guys recommend that packs a big punch at a modest price point, say a few hundred dollars tops?

Currently ramping up on Propeller, servos, some digital interfacing, sensors, SPIN, PASM, with a focus on robotic related things.

Any and all advocacy welcome, brands, types, features needed and why. Thanks, it will help us select the right device.

prof_braino · 2012-12-10 14:26

I received an old HP 10Mhz oscilloscope when the shop was disposing of unused test equipment. Apparently old analog scopes like this are popular since they can be repaired. Its fine for my needs and the price (free) was right.

Microcontrolled · 2012-12-10 14:40

Fully stand-alone, or potentially one that utilizes USB or external displays?

Martin Hodge · 2012-12-10 14:44

Rigol DS1052E or DS1102E

potatohead · 2012-12-10 15:55

Stand alone would be best.

SRLM · 2012-12-10 16:08

I'm saving up for this one: http://www.diyertool.com/digital-storage-oscilloscope-atten-ads1152cml.html
I've read a very good review on it's little brother ADS1102CAL from an EE. Unfortunately, it seems to be gone now (it's the webshots.com link from this page). Basically, the reviewer was very pleased with the performance and accuracy (he hooked it up to a function generator). His main gripe was the relatively small memory for doing the FFT. The "M" version has a deeper memory. Once I get enough money saved up I'm ordering the ADS1152CML.

Lev · 2012-12-10 17:21

I second the Rigol 1102. I have one and am very happy with it.

Mark_T · 2012-12-10 17:36

I presume the Rigol and the Atten 1102 are basically the same family, I've the Atten ADS1102CAL+, I think the + means large screen (7"). 100MHz, 1Gsps, 2 channel. Had for a
few months now and it seems pretty good and easy to use. Could be faster to boot up though (about 13 secs).

Bill Henning · 2012-12-10 17:41

I am quite satisfied with my UTD2102CEL

100Mhz bandwidth, 7" LCD, 1Gsps

Peter KG6LSE · 2012-12-10 17:48

for a NEW user forget DSO get a CRT based 100 MHz scope , Now If you have used a few CRTs and are aware of how to master a scope then get a digital toy.,,,, call me old fashoned but some stuff you cant do on a DSO . and I see too many people going for a digital when its more of a hindrance then help .( cough real time cougn ) and a unless you blow 11K on a nice unit and under use it..... real time Is really bad on some of these scopes ..... Rigol is a good budget scope . but its not gonna do Real time .. the A to D then display can eat up seconds of delay !

Ill die with my simpson VOM on my desk as a Old EE 40 Years from now .

as the end user is a new user not a old tech ..... then a BK 60 MHz is good enough .

.

frank freedman · 2012-12-10 18:53

check on ebay. I have done fairly well there...... If one is careful
Best 2247A $200.00
2430A 175 + CCD replacement (near unobtanium) $50.00

FF

edit: some good stuff currently on ebay, number of 2230s and 2232s. The 4xx are arm breakers weight wise. If it says working, make sure you can return if it is not............ seems to run on waves..

Erik Friesen · 2012-12-10 19:59

I am happy with my fluke combiscope(digital and analog 4ch, 100mhz), its a bit big though. I can print to pc with some trouble with the rs232 hpgl. They seem to be somewhat in demand, as they are a sniped item. I got mine for around $275 on ebay. The rigols seem like they would be a decent option too.

potatohead · 2012-12-10 20:12

Let's talk about digital vs analog.

I was seriously leaning toward analog. That's what I have currently, courtesy of a generous forum member here, and it's 4 channel 300Mhz, Tek. I love the thing. For logic, I've just used a Prop and a monochrome TV display. The speeds I was working at were well below what a Prop can do easy. That worked out really great.

CRT's are real time, and I've not really used the storage scopes much, but from what I'm reading here, they generally aren't, unless a person spends a lot of money. Is that true?

Are new CRT scopes still sold that have any real quality like the Tek I've got? And is that a good idea?

Having the real time display is a big deal to me personally. Early experiences were robust too, and that real time display helped see everything work well too, triggers, scale, etc...

Thoughts?

P!-Ro · 2012-12-10 20:40

I know usb isn't your preferred choice for an oscilloscope, and at one point it wasn't mine either. I bought a Hantek usb 200MHz oscilloscope however because it was cheaper for a faster sample rate than anything with a screen. Now, I find I prefer to have the usb oscilloscope over the others because the computer controls make it much easier to do many things such as to find measurements, and saving a waveform is much easier and can be saved as a picture on your hard drive. And usually I would have the computer out anyway while working on electronics, so it isn't a problem. USB oscilloscopes are also more portable.

Hope this helped.

Peter KG6LSE · 2012-12-10 21:01

Yup http://www.tequipment.net/BKOscilloscopes.html

I would not mind for my self a digital readout CRT scope . ( EG I can use it to Find a Freq with a set of bars and also Voltage with bars.) Somday..

Think On Screen display ...

Here is my worrie with USB scopes ......

BIG busted computer ...... not only do you smoke a scope probe but a full PC ...... I cant see the logic in risking a computer when the loss is too great ...

( what Is needed is a WiFi Scope that can be used as a website... so from a phone to a PC any device can Run it .)

frank freedman · 2012-12-10 21:04

@ potatohead: Don't know which tek you are running but yeah I like mine just fine.... all of them.... 468, 2230, 2232, 2447A, 2430A. Don't ask about the adventure of acquisition, but I learned lots. For example, I would buy the 2440 listed for $205 if I could determine that the CCDs were the same as my 2430A. I would not touch the one for $250 which claims to be working with a ten foot pole or your friends wallet. Notice the images show the self tests pass only through the NVRAM. No readout on 7000 and higher means the unit is probably a rob-bird candidate as the CCDs are most likely shot. Why else would he not show test results. Also makes a point of no returns. I got my 2430A with a ccd failure not knowing how hard it would be to find unobtainium....ANYwhere. Yes, I knew these parts would be needed as the ebay picture showed fail in tests 7000, 8000, and 9000. All because of a single channel CCD failure. Only got lucky and found someone selling one a couple weeks ago, and now it is in use after 2 years riding the closet corner. The 2447A is the main backup. The 2232 was tossed as beyond economical repair, NOT and the 2230 bought on ebay for $60.00 as parts, probably an easy fix when I get the time, probably over the holidays. Its next home will probably be with a particular charity which will be named after the scope is actually resurrected.

Analog; my preference for many things. especially working with video systems. Digital sucks at defining details such as vertical sync pulses trains, heck video in general. Maybe the newest DPOs may be good for that, but I never liked the digital scopes for medical imaging work. For many other things, storage is great. The 223x series has analog with a storage mode though it is 100MHz analog the digital storage is actually only about 10MHz. But has been more than good enough to work with all of the cardiac/angiography labs I have dealt with over the last couple decades.

FF

RDL2004 · 2012-12-10 21:46

I have a Tek 2247A and a Rigol DS1052E. For convenience and ease of use, I like the 1052E much better for day-to-day puttering around. The Tek is the size of a stack of 4 shoe boxes, the Rigol will fit in a shoe box. The 2247A must weigh at least 20 times what the Rigol does and it's a lot noisier also. For non-demanding hobbyist level use, I think a small digital scope is the better choice. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have both types though. Maybe get the digital scope first, then later (if the need arises) pick up a used analog CRT scope in the 20-100 MHz range off eBay.

Zetsu · 2012-12-11 06:13

This is what i use and I love it...

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA0U008N0463&nm_mc=KNC-GoogleMKP&cm_mmc=KNC-GoogleMKP-_-pla-_-NA-_-NA

I have a bench O-scope but I don't know how to calibrate it to get it working correctly.. Thing has to be 20 years old at least...

Zetsu · 2012-12-11 06:24

Peter KG6LSE wrote: »

for a NEW user forget DSO get a CRT based 100 MHz scope , Now If you have used a few CRTs and are aware of how to master a scope then get a digital toy.,,,, call me old fashoned but some stuff you cant do on a DSO . and I see too many people going for a digital when its more of a hindrance then help .( cough real time cougn ) and a unless you blow 11K on a nice unit and under use it..... real time Is really bad on some of these scopes ..... Rigol is a good budget scope . but its not gonna do Real time .. the A to D then display can eat up seconds of delay !

Ill die with my simpson VOM on my desk as a Old EE 40 Years from now .

as the end user is a new user not a old tech ..... then a BK 60 MHz is good enough .

.

Except what do you do when You get one of these old school scopes from a friend, and you cant tell if its broken or just needs to be calibrated. With no experience what do you do ?? I opened mine up once looked around for about 10 seconds and was like...... Yeah um ok, and closed it back up. Been setting on a shelf ever sense... This is what prompted me to buy my DSO now I dont have to mess with all those details.. It just works and its response time is just fine for me at least, I set the time per division really low, and it seems real time ( as in my eye cant tell the difference if its not..)

potatohead · 2012-12-11 07:06

Great point about lack of experience. We would need to deal with the scope before Xmas. Used CRT is off the list now.

Thanks everyone! Almost there! Really leaning toward a modest sized bench scope. I don't think portable beyond, "let's put my stuff in a box" is significant right now either.

About bandwidth...

I see some really low numbers in here and some fairly high ones. What is reasonable for a newbie? 40Mhz? 80Mhz? 100? IMHO, dropping below 40 starts to really limit things, am I wrong about that for a new user? Cost isn't too much of an issue. We don't really want to overbuy, but we also want the scope to see use for a long time too, and not get in the way at first.

Shawn Lowe · 2012-12-11 07:41

No recommendations for the Propscope?

Zetsu · 2012-12-11 08:01

Oh, by the way the DSO is real time according to the product description...

brucee · 2012-12-11 11:04

Call me old fashioned, (also old) but I too still love my old 2247.

An analog scope is still better than "real-time" for some things, I've seen people fooled by what their DSO was trying to tell them.

But I also use a Link MSO-28, which I can carry around with a Netbook and be real portable, and I have a cheaper scope meter which is pretty useless.

frank freedman · 2012-12-11 11:23

@potatohead.
There was an article I came across sometime back about not letting anyone touch the auto key on a tek until they fully understood how to use the device witbout depending on it. Scopes can be your best friend or most misleading nightmare if their function is not understood. This seems especially true of the DSO. With an analog scope you will be seeing the actual waveform and will have to adjust accordingly. Not understanding what these functions are could be a quick trip down the garden path. It will be important to understand sampling and related concepts in order to use a DSO. Other little details also can be problematic, say why does that sine wave not look like a sine wave even though you are within the bandwidth limit called out in the specs. Yes, sampling theorem does say you can capture Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah. Read a number of the free scope tutorials from the manufacturers. Many of these considerations are discussed in painful but necessary detail. Take your time on this one, it will be worth it.

FF

potatohead wrote: »

Great point about lack of experience. We would need to deal with the scope before Xmas. Used CRT is off the list now.

Thanks everyone! Almost there! Really leaning toward a modest sized bench scope. I don't think portable beyond, "let's put my stuff in a box" is significant right now either.

About bandwidth...

I see some really low numbers in here and some fairly high ones. What is reasonable for a newbie? 40Mhz? 80Mhz? 100? IMHO, dropping below 40 starts to really limit things, am I wrong about that for a new user? Cost isn't too much of an issue. We don't really want to overbuy, but we also want the scope to see use for a long time too, and not get in the way at first.

Zetsu · 2012-12-11 12:04

frank freedman wrote: »

@potatohead.
There was an article I came across sometime back about not letting anyone touch the auto key on a tek until they fully understood how to use the device witbout depending on it. Scopes can be your best friend or most misleading nightmare if their function is not understood. This seems especially true of the DSO. With an analog scope you will be seeing the actual waveform and will have to adjust accordingly. Not understanding what these functions are could be a quick trip down the garden path. It will be important to understand sampling and related concepts in order to use a DSO. Other little details also can be problematic, say why does that sine wave not look like a sine wave even though you are within the bandwidth limit called out in the specs. Yes, sampling theorem does say you can capture Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,blah. Read a number of the free scope tutorials from the manufacturers. Many of these considerations are discussed in painful but necessary detail. Take your time on this one, it will be worth it.

FF

I just got the parallax book about o-scopes and used a DSO instead of the propscope and it taught me everything I think I needed to know, and I have not had any issues out of interpreted what my DSO is telling me, I capture RS-232 on it no problems as well as other signals waveforms etc.. etc..

can you give an actual example how a DSO could mislead someone, because I don't see how unless you set V/Division to something and thought it was something else or T/Division ??
The triggering took a little time to get use to, but that was mainly me needing to read the little instruction pamphlet it came with..
I am not saying you are wrong or anything, I just don't see 'how' they are misleading.

potatohead · 2012-12-11 12:06

I may consider a hybrid for this person. Get em a cost effective new scope, but also have a sit down with the old TEK and some challenging waves.

You are 100 percent right about this Frank, but we are torn between cost, making sure it all just works and good experiences. Maybe we can map the good stuff over.

Circuitsoft · 2012-12-11 16:16

Am I the only one here with an HP 31B?

frank freedman · 2012-12-11 16:27

A what?

Chirp

Chirp......

Circuitsoft · 2012-12-11 16:33

Single channel 20MHz scope that weighs 41lbs (18.5Kg).

frank freedman · 2012-12-11 17:37

Olympic training quality!!!

Circuitsoft wrote: »

Single channel 20MHz scope that weighs 41lbs (18.5Kg).

potatohead · 2012-12-11 21:41

Heck, I started out on one of these babies:

Great discussion everyone. I really appreciate it. (Yes, I had that heavy Tek on a cart --home made though, wood and casters) We've zeroed in on a few good choices and I'll leave it up to them. Once they've sorted it all out, I'll be around to help orient a scope newbie.

Please continue o-scope discussion, if you want. I've marked the thread chatter for that purpose.

First O-scope

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