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Why get the P2 Emulator? — Parallax Forums

Why get the P2 Emulator?

T ChapT Chap Posts: 4,223
edited 2012-12-04 20:10 in Propeller 1
For most of you guys this is obvious. I am assuming that the main reasons would be:

1. Get a jump start on testing the new code and features.
2. Start porting P1 code to the P2.

Is there anything else? I am considering getting the 6 core version to get started for the reasons above, but wanted to see what other benefits there were to going through the learning curve to get it up and running.
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Comments

  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2012-12-01 09:12
    To be the first to create a Forth language on the P2.

    Would you like to learn about the P2 in an interactive mode. For now, only Forth will do it. And both Tachyon Forth and PropForth seem to have plans to support the P2 with lots more i/o pins and ADC directly available at the pins.

    I guess CatalinaC and GCC might want an early headstart as well.

    And then, there is the huge step up in video ability.

    Myself, I am a lowly noob - I will just wait for the P2 and get the real thing ASAP. But it would be nice to not have to wait to load the software and applications that I am hoping for.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2012-12-01 09:20
    I already had a DE0-Nano FPGA board, and like playing with new stuff. There didn't seem any reason not to try it.
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2012-12-01 09:48
    I'm not a hardware or software developer and have quite enough to keep me busy with the Propeller. The Propeller 2 will come to me when it's ready. I can't see spending $100 to $600 just to run the emulator.

    As for the Forth solution, I think Peter is close to having Tachyon running on the P2. He may already be up and running and just having too much fun to let us know.

    I think what Chip and Parallax did by releasing the emulator to anyone who wants to buy the FPGA is fantastic and just another one of the reasons I like Parallax so much!
  • Martin HodgeMartin Hodge Posts: 1,246
    edited 2012-12-01 10:07
    mindrobots wrote: »
    I can't see spending $100 to $600 just to run the emulator.

    I thought the same thing until I realized the board can do so much more than just run an emulator. Get a DE0 and explore the universe of FPGA's t'boot! It's a magical land!
  • D.PD.P Posts: 790
    edited 2012-12-01 12:33
    I thought the same thing until I realized the board can do so much more than just run an emulator. Get a DE0 and explore the universe of FPGA's t'boot! It's a magical land!

    For $110.00 including shipping I could not turn down this opportunity either as part of my continuing education having 0 FPGA experience.

    Also gives me another reason to buy the new adapter board from parallax that Sapieha has designed to support the DEO. Really nice to see parallax keeping the "ring 0" crowd excited with the release of the emulator images and Chip's helpful comments while they all wait for the first shuttle results. And finally I want to run Peter's Tachyon P2 FORTH on the P2 emulator, there I said it.
  • Invent-O-DocInvent-O-Doc Posts: 768
    edited 2012-12-01 13:37
    It should be good for those making development tools. Apart from that, I think people want an early Christmas.

    As for me, I'm waiting for the actual chip.
  • cgraceycgracey Posts: 14,253
    edited 2012-12-01 13:41
    The DE0-Nano board is a good deal and it gets you into FPGA programming with the Altera tools. It's pretty stimulating stuff. Anything logical that you can conceive of (within the limits of a particular FPGA) can be realized and run at many MHz. It's kind of like the "final frontier", if you are into designing computing hardware.
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2012-12-01 13:52
    Two reasons for me:

    One is I really enjoy learning Propeller related things. Emulation is perfect to continue doing that.

    The other is FPGA learning. This is a great motivator. Get familiar with the tech with it acting as a P2, then go for combination projects once we get real P2 chips.
  • cgraceycgracey Posts: 14,253
    edited 2012-12-01 14:01
    Yes! FPGAs are really fascinating. It takes a lot of work, though, and a shift in thinking, to design with them. Anything is possible, but you're working at a very low level.
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2012-12-01 14:54
    I've started doing my reading. So far it feels a lot like assembly language did early on. Gotta get some basic concepts down, build little things, then bigger ones, but it happens fast, and it is hardware too. In any case, I'm looking forward to it all.

    Oh, and the word "sardware" comes to mind...
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2012-12-01 14:59
    Ok, this sounds like a lot of fun....you guys REALLY need to stop trying to spend ALL my money on electronic stuff!!!

    I must be strong...I must be strong....
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2012-12-01 15:25
    That 6 COG capable board is really powerful. Just watch out when connecting to or probing it. Chip stumbled into the +12 volts mixed in with other signals...

    IMHO, if you can swing it, having multiple COGS is likely a great experience, though I suspect we are soon to be very impressed with what can be done on one COG!
  • SapiehaSapieha Posts: 2,964
    edited 2012-12-01 15:40
    Hi potatohead.

    Most powerful are have one of both ----> That give even possibility to test-writ drivers for communication betwen 2 Propellers II


    potatohead wrote: »
    That 6 COG capable board is really powerful. Just watch out when connecting to or probing it. Chip stumbled into the +12 volts mixed in with other signals...

    IMHO, if you can swing it, having multiple COGS is likely a great experience, though I suspect we are soon to be very impressed with what can be done on one COG!
  • rjo__rjo__ Posts: 2,114
    edited 2012-12-01 16:57
    http://www.digikey.com.au/product-highlights/au/en/lattice-semiconductor-programmable-video/1719

    Unless I have badly misunderstood the conversation... the PropII will make this sort of thing rather unnecessary. I personally don't have the time... just lots of desire. In looking at the natural progression of Prop I development, it is easy to see the PropII doing all of this
    and more. Is there a market? Lattice thinks so:) A stereo camera I can control with a Prop II... Lordy, Lordy.

    Rich
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-12-01 18:58
    mindrobots wrote: »
    Ok, this sounds like a lot of fun....you guys REALLY need to stop trying to spend ALL my money on electronic stuff!!!

    I must be strong...I must be strong....

    I was thinking the same thing. What's that saying?
    A nerd and his money are soon parted.


    I think that's the way it goes.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2012-12-01 19:08
    I can wait for the Real ThingTM. 'No worries about catching up when it's finally available. :)

    Huh? (I hear a ghostly voice.) What's that you say? "Gratification delaaaayed is gratification deniiiied." Stop that! Be still! Patience is a virtue!

    -Phil
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2012-12-01 19:27
    It's been 4 hours since I posted saying I'd wait......does that count as delayed gratification??? Maybe wait at least one BUSINESS day? But then, I'm just a hobbyist, this isn't business.....
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2012-12-01 19:30
    I bought a DE0-Nano many months ago and never got around to doing anything with it. Running the P2 emulation makes me feel less guilty about my purchase! :-)
  • SapiehaSapieha Posts: 2,964
    edited 2012-12-01 19:32
    Hi mindrobots

    For me --- Today is already to late


    mindrobots wrote: »
    It's been 4 hours since I posted saying I'd wait......does that count as delayed gratification??? Maybe wait at least one BUSINESS day? But then, I'm just a hobbyist, this isn't business.....
  • John A. ZoidbergJohn A. Zoidberg Posts: 514
    edited 2012-12-01 19:37
    Too bad I don't have that DE0 board, and shipping to SE Asia isn't any cheap than I thought.

    Looks like I have to patiently wait until the most final product comes out from the factory.

    Could we get engineering samples for the first batch if it is released? I can't wait to play with Prop2's multiply/divide stuff and the DAC inside.
  • SRLMSRLM Posts: 5,045
    edited 2012-12-01 23:15
    I've done a bunch of work with FPGA programming using a Xilinx Spartan 6. It was interesting, and it felt rewarding to be able to "build" a processor from the ground up. However, it was very slow to build and not very useful: a bit like assembly programming. You'd have to be insane to write you business application in ASM, and the same goes for FPGAs.

    There is, however, research on making a hybrid processor with a "soft peripheral" of an FPGA core and a compiler that analyzes the code, and for the heavily used or slow portions will automatically "compile" a peripheral on the FPGA that makes your code run faster. That's something to watch out for, along with a more intuitive FPGA programming paradigm than VHDL or Verilog.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2012-12-01 23:21
    SRLM,
    You'd have to be insane to write you business application in ASM, and the same goes for FPGAs.

    Ha, try telling that to the guys who do high frequency stock market trading with FPGA's

    http://www.hftreview.com/pg/blog/mike/read/55950


  • FredBlaisFredBlais Posts: 379
    edited 2012-12-01 23:48
    SRLM wrote: »
    There is, however, research on making a hybrid processor with a "soft peripheral" of an FPGA core and a compiler that analyzes the code, and for the heavily used or slow portions will automatically "compile" a peripheral on the FPGA that makes your code run faster. That's something to watch out for, along with a more intuitive FPGA programming paradigm than VHDL or Verilog.

    Back in 2007, I worked on a vector motor drive implementation on FPGA. I used Tensilica Xtensa tools to do just what you described.
  • SapiehaSapieha Posts: 2,964
    edited 2012-12-01 23:52
    Hi SRLM.

    In Altera Quartus You not need work VHDL or Verilog.
    You can made al Yours work as SCH's -- That quartus compile that to FPGA configuration file.

    SRLM wrote: »
    I've done a bunch of work with FPGA programming using a Xilinx Spartan 6. It was interesting, and it felt rewarding to be able to "build" a processor from the ground up. However, it was very slow to build and not very useful: a bit like assembly programming. You'd have to be insane to write you business application in ASM, and the same goes for FPGAs.

    There is, however, research on making a hybrid processor with a "soft peripheral" of an FPGA core and a compiler that analyzes the code, and for the heavily used or slow portions will automatically "compile" a peripheral on the FPGA that makes your code run faster. That's something to watch out for, along with a more intuitive FPGA programming paradigm than VHDL or Verilog.
  • rod1963rod1963 Posts: 752
    edited 2012-12-02 00:04
    Business apps in assembly. Well that's what people did back in the Commodore 64 and CP/M days, when 64k didn't mean cache memory but the whole enchilada of RAM.

    That said, there are now a bunch of soft processors ARM's, Coldfire, PPC's, all with GNU C compiler tool chains. The same thing for NIOS and Blaze soft cores.

    Xynq goes all the way by being a programmable system on a chip.

    FPGA's are also good for emulating retro systems like the Amiga or Atari ST or extending them. Take a DE1 and turn it into a Amiga. I know it's weird but there is a segment out there that does it.
  • rjo__rjo__ Posts: 2,114
    edited 2012-12-03 12:13
    The question is already answered but there are others who might not be sure.

    I guess the most compelling argument has to be "because the PII in emulation is here, right now." The final PropII is still in development. Everyone believes that release is right around the corner... but: Parallax has never done some of what it is trying to do. And until they have done it... there is always the possibility that some of the information that they are relying upon is either incomplete or inaccurate. Incomplete is more likely, but I can never get "inaccurate" out of my skull. All it takes is one little problem and the whole program gets delayed. It has happened to just about everyone who has ever developed anything. This is a little company... with a very big job.

    Take the PII in emulation and run with it as fast and as far as you can,



    Rich
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2012-12-03 12:28
    John A. Zoidberg
    Why get the P2 Emulator?

    First of all can we not call it an "emulator"?. What is on offer is the actual VHDL/Verilog design of the chip. The same as will be used in the production PII. Give or take a few adjustments required for the hardware it is instantiated in.

    Reasons:

    1) You have a PI program you want to optimize or expand for PII. Nice to have a test bed for it prior to arrival of the real thing.
    2) Perhaps the same for hardware designs.
    3) You are building a language compiler or interpreter for the PII and would like to know it will work when the time comes.
    4) Let's face it, there may still be bugs in the PII design. Better if as many people as possible exercise it prior to committing to silicon.
    5) You just can wait for "Chipmas" so you have to have a toy now.
    6) The desire to get into FPGA's seems a natural for anyone interested in computing and how to design a CPU or other logic.
    7) A ton of other reasons...
  • Dave HeinDave Hein Posts: 6,347
    edited 2012-12-03 12:32
    The main reason for running a P2 emulator is to wring out any design problems that might remain. The more people running code, the better the chance of finding something. Personally, I would rather see a detailed description of all the P2 instructions. I know Chip is working on that. I suppose there is even more of a reason to have the instruction spec now that several people are trying to write code for the emulator.
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2012-12-03 13:18
    @Heater: Simulator then?
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2012-12-03 13:28
    potatohead,

    No. It's the real thing, logic element for logic element, connection for connection. Yes I know it's implemented in an FPGA and not custom made silicon but so what?

    "simulate" or "emulate" implies something trying to behave something else. But this is the thing itself (silicon aside).

    Is an "emulation" of a mathematician any less a mathematician than a "real" mathematician?
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