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Changing Gears - Patent And PCBs — Parallax Forums

Changing Gears - Patent And PCBs

idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,197
edited 2012-11-24 10:46 in General Discussion
Hello Everyone

While awaiting an answer pertaining to my patent. I have been doing alot of research and thinking, especially concerning my PCB (Printed Circuit Board) making process. As it stands now, there are two current problems with my process, one I hate to manually drill holes, and the other is creating plate through holes, from the top layer to the bottom layer. I have no doubt that I will be able to create plated through holes, but I have decided not to focus on this problem until the sale of my patent is resolved.

In the meantime, I have decided to rearrange my exposure procedure and gear up for doing single-sided, small, protoboards. I am not talking anything fancy here, I am just talking about copper traces placed on the opposing side of the components, which may or may not require jumpers from Point A to Point B, and may or may not include tin plating, but it will certainly not include the drilling of holes, soldermask, or silkscreen. Additionally, I am thinking of several standard size protoboards, with increments of a 1/2 inch, having a maximum size of 3 inch by 4 inch.

So my question is this:
For one of a kind, single-sided and tin plated protoboards, having dimensions 3 inch by 4 inch or less, would you be willing to pay $10 to $20 for such a board, if you had to drill your own holes?
If there is any interest, I would seriously consider providing this service.

Bruce

Comments

  • ctwardellctwardell Posts: 1,716
    edited 2012-11-13 06:28
    Bruce,

    I think that's a tough sell compared to services like ExpressPCB where you can get three 2.5" x 3.8" double sided boards that are drilled and have plated through holes for $51, thats $17 per board.

    Your advantage would be the single quantity and slightly larger size, but losing the second side and needing to do your own drilling is a big drawback.

    Just my $0.02

    C.W.
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,197
    edited 2012-11-13 07:34
    C.W.

    Yea, I imagine it is a tough sale, but perhaps there are folks that don't need three double sided boards with plated through holes, and saving $30 to $40 bucks might be more important to them, such as students and the younger people in the forum.

    I don't know if you noticed, but I started a new thread in the Propeller forum, pertaining to an EAGLE library for the Propeller DIP Plus Kit. At this very moment, with the exception of writing this response, I am creating a schematic and board with that library, and it will be a one-sided board. This board and schematic will be based upon a Propeller Chip updater or "stache" that I made a while back for updating the EEPROMs of my machines. That same project was built with a Propeller DIP Plus Kit and it is sealed in a nice neat project box from RS. On the inside of the box, there is nothing fancy to see, but it works. This type of service would be perfect for that kind of project, where you only need one copy, and don't mind drilling a few holes. I just wish I could have all the time back that I spent wiring that thing up, because I would have gladly spent $10 bucks for a small one sided board, in that case. When I get finished with this design, I am going to expose a PCB, etch it, and plate it, and perhaps I will post photos.

    Bruce
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2012-11-13 07:59
    purple-pcb with gold plating. shipped for around $15-20 for 3 boards.

    http://oshpark.com/
    For example, a 2 square inch board would cost $10 and you’d get three copies of your board.
    You can order as many copies as you want, as long as they’re in multiples of three.
    Orders are generally 2 to 3 times a week, and have a turn time of about 12 days.
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,197
    edited 2012-11-13 08:03
    tonyp12

    That sounds like a pretty darn good deal.

    Bruce
  • CircuitsoftCircuitsoft Posts: 1,166
    edited 2012-11-13 08:48
    I've been using oshpark for several of my projects, and have been extremely satisfied with them. Would your boards include soldermask and gold plating? Gold plating isn't that big a deal, but soldermask is, if I want the circuit to last well.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2012-11-13 09:42
    ITead provides the best value PCB service:

    http://imall.iteadstudio.com/open-pcb/pcb-prototyping.html

    I've used them for three sets of boards, without any problems. They got them made in about three working days, and postage to the UK took about another 10 days or so.
  • MicrocontrolledMicrocontrolled Posts: 2,461
    edited 2012-11-13 14:38
    To answer the original question: Single sided, tin plated, no soldermask, no through-hole plating and I have to drill my own holes? There is NO WAY it's worth $10-$20 per board. Seeing as this is only for one copy of the board, I would be almost as well off to use a Sharpie and ferric chloride. If you dropped it to something lower, maybe, but at the current cost I can get a board that has all the features yours doesn't at a lower cost (in quantity), so it simply isn't worth it.
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,197
    edited 2012-11-13 14:52
    There is NO WAY it's worth $10-$20 per board. Seeing as this is only for one copy of the board, I would be almost as well off to use a Sharpie and ferric chloride.

    LOL.... Okay, then a Sharpie and ferric chloride it is :)
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,197
    edited 2012-11-16 10:55
    In the attached file below, you will find a perfect example of what I am talking about. Although I am not completely finished with the design, it should give you a pretty good idea. It is a single sided board, 1.70" X 3.00", and when I am finished, it will be tin plated. For something like this (one of a kind), without holes drilled, I would want $15.

    Good luck doing a board like this with a Sharpie and Ferric Chloride :)

    Bruce
  • MonotobaMonotoba Posts: 9
    edited 2012-11-23 11:04
    If you need holes drilled and can provide the board file (Prefer Eagle 5/6 or Altium Designer), I have a 3-Axis CNC machine I use for this on my own boards. If you only want to send the dril files then make sure they are compatible with EMC2 or Mach3 interpretation of the standards. The machine I use for this is small and can only process board with 7"x10" limit.

    I just started a project called Maker-Source.Com (Not up yet but will be by the end of the week), to offer services to creative people who lack knowledge or equipment to complete their projects. This came out of my experience with friends and acquaintances who were themselves creative people but often lacked either some specific knowledge or equipment to complete a project they had in mind. In most cases it was either someone needing a small part milled or a simple circuit designed to operate animated artwork, or control a model railroad or slot car layout, or take photos from an RC plane or Heli. In some cases it was someone needing services I couldn't provide such as print art, logo design, etc. However, my artist friends are good at that so I played match maker when I couldn't provide the needed service. I have been helping friends and friends of friends for decades and then just a few weeks ago it struck me. With DIY and creativity bombing again, I could charge a reasonable fee for these services and take a small cut for matching someone with a need with someone with the ability.

    I think your service is reasonable but your target market is wrong. The people here have the ability to produce PCBs in one off quantities using various methods. To someone like an artist who only knows she wants this piece to move that way and that piece to move this way and have some lights flash in a particular pattern, your services would be a very reasonable price. Now, at the moment I don't have a ton of people knocking down my door for these services. But I am looking for others who can provide such services as I begin to promote the Maker-Source.Com site. The site's motto is: "Helping Creative People Create!" and is simply meant to provide service to fill the gap in someone's abilities to produce their project. Each project will be negotiated at the time of service request and bartering is allowed. So their are no set prices. It is not a bidding site though that aspect may have some potential. For the moment I think do to the nature of the work and the clientele, a bidding process would not serve the target market well.

    If anyone here is interested in doing such one off work, or micro production runs for such projects I'd love to have you contact me with a list of your abilities, equipment, and talents.
  • rwgast_logicdesignrwgast_logicdesign Posts: 1,464
    edited 2012-11-23 11:33
    I think that ITead/SeedStudio may be the better bet I just checked in to OSHPark and you get a 2 square inch board for 10 dollars, so your paying at least 20 bucks for three boards if you want a 40pin DIP on there.

    ITead on the other hand gives you 10 copys of a 2 layer 5cmx5cm board which is close to 4 inches for 9.90 if im reading everything correct, although I cant tell if solder mask and silck screen is included, it would appear so though.

    Bruce may have a good deal if he was charging 20 bucks for a big board if you need something thats 20 sqaure inches its going to cost alot through any PCB house. Lets say you were designing a through hole z80 system, im pretty sure if you wanted a one of paying bruce 20 bucks and drilling some holes would save oodles
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2012-11-23 12:10
    ITead includes solder mask and silk screen on both sides.
  • rwgast_logicdesignrwgast_logicdesign Posts: 1,464
    edited 2012-11-23 12:31
    Well gosh darn ima get me 10 PCBs made lol, I had no idea you could get a 4 square inch PCB for a buck!!!
  • MonotobaMonotoba Posts: 9
    edited 2012-11-23 15:47
    Is there a minimum. I know in the past I have had folks willing to pay $20 for a single board but couldn't justify purchasing the require 3 boards for a one off project. The other $30 was just a waste....


    Well gosh darn ima get me 10 PCBs made lol, I had no idea you could get a 4 square inch PCB for a buck!!!
  • MonotobaMonotoba Posts: 9
    edited 2012-11-23 15:56
    The way I read this it is $15/board. With no panel lines. It must be one design. Perhaps they would let you do multiple panels if you did the parting?
  • rwgast_logicdesignrwgast_logicdesign Posts: 1,464
    edited 2012-11-23 16:01
    Am i missing something is it 9.90 for 10 boards at 5cm by 5cm
  • MonotobaMonotoba Posts: 9
    edited 2012-11-23 16:12
    No, I did, They have a special going for that price. $9.90 for all 10 boards!
  • MonotobaMonotoba Posts: 9
    edited 2012-11-23 16:32
    I just noticed that it says sold out at the bottom of the page.... No place to order unless I missed something again
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2012-11-23 16:56
  • rwgast_logicdesignrwgast_logicdesign Posts: 1,464
    edited 2012-11-23 19:52
    oh :/ didnt realize it was a sale
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2012-11-24 05:34
    personally, if I wanted to have someone make a board for me, it would be because I wanted someone else to drill the holes for me.
    (I only have a Dremel for that use at the moment, and no, I don't have a rig for it. )

    Even with the drill we used back when I was studying, the drilling was a bit of a pain.
    (Pedal-operated model with a drill that punched up from below and a sighting plate that was swung down over the PCB)
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,197
    edited 2012-11-24 05:48
    I am back to working on my automated PCB Drilling machine. So hopefully it won't be long before I can drill holes. I am also looking into soldermask, plated through holes, etc...

    Even though drilling your own holes can be a pain, there can also be pain and headaches associated with exposing, developing, and etching a PCB. For those people that don't mind buying extra boards, when they only need one, I say more power to them. They can spend their money any way they want. As for me, I intend to conquer the process completely, and make my own.

    Bruce

    EDIT: However, there is no way that I am ever going to strive for the ENIG process. I will leave that for the experts :)
  • CircuitsoftCircuitsoft Posts: 1,166
    edited 2012-11-24 09:17
    Having soldered on boards with plated through-holes, I really wouldn't want to go without. Solder mask is pretty critical as well, as it protects unsoldered traces from corroding.
    I think that ITead/SeedStudio may be the better bet I just checked in to OSHPark and you get a 2 square inch board for 10 dollars, so your paying at least 20 bucks for three boards if you want a 40pin DIP on there.

    A co-worker of mine has sworn-off ITead because they don't test them, and he's had an average of 30% failures in orders he's placed. OSHPark appear to all be perfect. Also, keep in mind OSHPark is $5/square inch for three copies. So, 3 boards for $10.
  • idbruceidbruce Posts: 6,197
    edited 2012-11-24 09:24
    As far as OSHPark is concerned, there is not a whole lot of information on their website. If you want to use their service, you must first upload files. I could not find a guarantee anywhere that your designs will not be shared with the rest of the world.

    Bruce
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2012-11-24 09:42
    A co-worker of mine has sworn-off ITead because they don't test them, and he's had an average of 30% failures in orders he's placed. OSHPark appear to all be perfect. Also, keep in mind OSHPark is $5/square inch for three copies. So, 3 boards for $10.

    ITead does test their boards, they mark the ones that have passed. All the marked boards I have used have been OK.
  • ctwardellctwardell Posts: 1,716
    edited 2012-11-24 10:11
    Leon wrote: »
    ITead does test their boards, they mark the ones that have passed. All the marked boards I have used have been OK.

    So are all boards ordered "passed" or if you order 10 you might get 6 "passed" and 4 "not-passed"?

    C.W.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2012-11-24 10:46
    They said that at least 50% will pass. They are claiming 100% testing, now.

    Actually, it isn't ITead who make and test the boards, it's their supplier.
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