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Spin Stamp Discontinued ? — Parallax Forums

Spin Stamp Discontinued ?

FORDFORD Posts: 221
edited 2012-11-03 19:35 in Propeller 1
Hi,
Can somebody at Parallax please point me to where this was announced by Parallax prior to the spin stamp going out of production ?

No information was passed on via distributors etc regarding this, and it has left us in a difficult position.

Thank you,

Chris
«13

Comments

  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2012-10-25 15:50
    Chris,

    I think a call to Jim Carey at Parallax Sales would be in order. That would be your fastest answer as the marketing types don't monitor the forums that much.

    It is my gut feeling that the Spin Stamp has gone by the wayside, given the slow sales on this unit.
  • PJAllenPJAllen Banned Posts: 5,065
    edited 2012-10-25 16:03
    Well, I think they started moving pretty good when I asked about lowering the price (with the release of the Netduino or whatever it was last year or so.)
    You don't get access to all of the I/O with them - but then you don't get a chunk of pc_board with a bunch of ICs and LEDs that you don't need either.
  • FORDFORD Posts: 221
    edited 2012-10-25 16:06
    Hi Publison,
    Slow sales don't excuse the fact that some notification needs to made to the clients that do use it, so that they at least have the opportunity to buy up some runout stock, we never had that opportunity as far as I am aware.

    Major hardware changes now need to be made, plus us having stocks of populated pcb's ready for use etc make this very inconvenient.

    I did contact the customer service dept, and got this reply below just now, no hello or nice introduction, just a blunt reply...

    >>>
    This is correct, these have been discontinued. We no longer have stock

    Thank you,
    Kristina Stewart
    Customer Service/ Sales Representative
    Parallax Inc
    Office (916) 624-8333
    Fax (916) 624-8003
    kstewart@parallax.com
    <<<
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,670
    edited 2012-10-25 16:19
    Maybe you could make a simple adapter board to convert PropStick USB to Spin Stamp?
  • FORDFORD Posts: 221
    edited 2012-10-25 16:30
    Cheers Rayman,
    We already have hardware developed and in use.

    The principle is that we should have had prior notice of this and been given the opportunity to at least stock up on some spin stamps.

    Parallax are usually good but they've dropped the ball a bit on this one.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2012-10-25 19:27
    Ouch!

    -Phil
  • CircuitsoftCircuitsoft Posts: 1,166
    edited 2012-10-25 19:42
    I can lay out a board to replace the SpinStamp tonight, if you'd like. Do you have the manufacturing wherewithal to place SMT components?
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2012-10-25 19:58
    Parallax might let Chris have the PCB files.
  • CircuitsoftCircuitsoft Posts: 1,166
    edited 2012-10-25 20:10
    I think part of it can be done with somewhat easier-to-assemble, but more-expensive parts, which makes sense for a small run.
  • FORDFORD Posts: 221
    edited 2012-10-25 20:48
    @ Clive,
    Thanks for the link Mate, I've already posted there, thats where I first found out about the discontinuation.

    @ Circuitsoft,
    Thank you sincerely for the offer, thats very kind of you, but I can do that too if it became necessary.

    I'm angry about the principle here, the fact that they are prepared to discontinue a product, fully knowing, and seemingly uncaring about the problems it will cause some clients.
    The communication on this has been substandard, even the Aussie distributor where we buy all of our Parallax products knew nothing of this until now, thats unbelievable.

    Ours is an industrial application that we put a lot of $$ and time into, only recently, and obviously thinking the spin stamp would be around for a long time being fairly new, and based on the propeller chip.
    As soon as we started migrating to the propeller, and get a few out in the field, they've done this.
    (We have used around 2500 basic stamp bs2p's in the past).

    Anyway, Jim Carey from Parallax has emailed me, and hopefully something positive will occur in the next few days.

    Cheers,
    chris
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2012-10-25 21:36
    FORD wrote: »
    The communication on this has been substandard, even the Aussie distributor where we buy all of our Parallax products knew nothing of this until now, thats unbelievable.

    Ours is an industrial application that we put a lot of $$ and time into, only recently, and obviously thinking the spin stamp would be around for a long time being fairly new, and based on the propeller chip.
    As soon as we started migrating to the propeller, and get a few out in the field, they've done this.
    (We have used around 2500 basic stamp bs2p's in the past).

    It does seem a strange decision, given they claim to have their own P&P lines, and have a proven design.

    If demand really does fall low, surely the smarter way to manage that, is to have a MOQ and a 'next build' lead time.
    Unless there is some other reason driving this ?
  • FORDFORD Posts: 221
    edited 2012-10-25 21:50
    I have just had an email from Ken Gracey stating that they will continue manufacturing these.

    Phew...

    Thank you Ken.
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,392
    edited 2012-10-26 06:57
    Now that I've talked to people in the office who handle these kinds of issues (our Engineering Manager, Product Owner and Purchasing Manager) I'm starting to understand why these are discontinued. The problem is that the resonator used on the SS1-IC has been discontinued by the manufacturer and there is no drop-in replacement. Footprints for suitable replacements are larger and would require us to grow the PCB beyond the 24-pin DIP format we use.

    We are in the process of developing a small Propeller development board as an alternative, but it would not be a drop-in replacement for the Spin Stamp. It's being developed as a mini-board solution using the SpinStamp as a starting pont, but with added features to make the product more useful to the general public.

    I've got a few people digging a bit deeper into alternatives and will come back with more details.

    I'm not sure why we didn't announce it on the forums.
  • CircuitsoftCircuitsoft Posts: 1,166
    edited 2012-10-26 09:45
    Could a through-hole crystal be used, and assembled to have it stand up above the circuit?
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2012-10-26 10:05
    Ken,

    The crystal used on the Propeller Backpack (DigiKey #XC1510TR-ND) should be a drop-in replacement for the one used on the Spin Stamp. DigiKey has plenty of them.

    -Phil

    Addendum: Since first posting, I've discovered that the Backpack is being shipped with the same Transko crystal used on the Spin Stamp. However, I know that the DigiKey part cited above will also work for the Backpack, since that's what it was proto'd with. So I'm sure it will also work with the Spin Stamp.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2012-10-26 12:37
    Ken,

    The crystal used on the Propeller Backpack (DigiKey #XC1510TR-ND)

    That is a 10MHz part ?
    There is a general issue with 5MHz crystals, in that they are larger, and used in lower volumes, so are tending to 'fall off' the product lines.

    This CerRes part could perhaps be used, for a PCB tweak, as it is smaller (4.50mm x 2.00mm) and cheaper
    http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/CSTCR5M00G53Z-R0/490-4720-6-ND/1219406

    Digikey shows a 2 pin variant, as PX500PSCT-ND, but it is more expensive and NRND - so customers have all moved to the 3 pin model.
  • CircuitsoftCircuitsoft Posts: 1,166
    edited 2012-10-26 12:51
    The Spin Stamp says it uses a 10MHz crystal.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2012-10-26 13:25
    jmg wrote:
    That is a 10MHz part ?

    Yes, 10 MHz. 'Works fine with pll8x. The ECS part from DigiKey is a drop-in replacement for the Transco crystal, so no PCB rejiggering is required.

    -Phil
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2012-10-26 14:05
    Yes, 10 MHz. 'Works fine with pll8x. The ECS part from DigiKey is a drop-in replacement for the Transco crystal, so no PCB rejiggering is required.

    OK, I guess that is Parallax's call, but if I had a device data sheet that said this
    Oscillator Frequency Min : 4MHz Max : 8MHz Condition : Crystal using PLL
    then I would use a 5MHz frequency source ?
  • CircuitsoftCircuitsoft Posts: 1,166
    edited 2012-10-26 14:11
    While the specs say that the PLL is limited to 128MHz, there are many people who have run it at 160MHz without issue, and I haven't heard of anyone having trouble with it. This points to the general robustness/overhead of the design.
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2012-10-26 14:16
    While the specs say that the PLL is limited to 128MHz, there are many people who have run it at 160MHz without issue, and I haven't heard of anyone having trouble with it. This points to the general robustness/overhead of the design.

    Perhaps, but the OP is a significant overall volume, industrial user, and either the Datasheet is correct, or it is not.
    One cannot really ship an industrial design, based on hearsay...
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2012-10-26 14:28
    The datasheet isn't wrong; it's just a bit over-conservative, as datasheets are wont to be. The VCO doesn't begin to Smile out until about 224 MHz, so 160 MHz is just cantering; it's not even a full gallop.

    -Phil
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2012-10-26 14:48
    The datasheet isn't wrong; it's just a bit over-conservative, as datasheets are wont to be. The VCO doesn't begin to Smile out until about 224 MHz, so 160 MHz is just cantering; it's not even a full gallop.

    That's fine for a hobbyist, but you really cannot ship industrial volume based on that.

    The margining has to be done somewhere, either Parallax test the Osc and Guarantee to 160MHz, or the buyer has to somehow do that themselves. - and for what ? You can easily buy 5MHz parts.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2012-10-26 14:54
    jmg wrote:
    You can easily buy 5MHz parts.
    Not that fit the restricted space of the Backpack or Stamp. We're talking 5mm x 3mm here. And, no, ceramic resonators are not a viable choice, especially when video is involved.

    Anyway, enough pontificating, jmg. The 10 MHz crystal frequency has proven itself -- not only in the Prop Backpack and Spin Stamp, but also in the Hydra. It's been a done deal for years.

    -Phil
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2012-10-26 15:05
    The 10 MHz crystal frequency has proven itself -- not only in the Prop Backpack and Spin Stamp, but also in the Hydra. It's been a done deal for years.

    Then why does the Data Sheet not actually state that ?

    If your 'she'll be right' (?!) approach is shared by Parallax, then this underlines why Parallax struggle to be taken seriously by the larger customers.

    I'm frankly surprised they ship product that is outside the data.

    If it really is OK, and they guarantee it, then FIX the datasheet !!
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2012-10-26 15:23
    jmg wrote:
    Then why does the Data Sheet not actually state that ?
    I can't speak for Parallax, but it's probably because it was prepared with an abundance of caution prior to the field experience that came later.
    jmg wrote:
    If it really is OK, and they guarantee it, then FIX the datasheet !!
    Why? Nobody who follows the datasheet guidelines will get into trouble. So the datasheet is still performing the function it was designed for. Datasheets are always over-conservative -- not just Parallax's -- but they're hardly the last word on what's possible with good design.

    -Phil
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,173
    edited 2012-10-26 15:42
    Why? Nobody who follows the datasheet guidelines will get into trouble.

    Err ? Clearly because Parallax themselves are NOT following the datasheet guidelines. That really is not a good look.
    So the datasheet is still performing the function it was designed for. Datasheets are always over-conservative -- not just Parallax's -- but they're hardly the last word on what's possible with good design.

    Wow, I guess we can be glad you do not design bridges or buildings !!

    The whole point, is a Data sheet says what is GUARANTEED. Hopefully backed up by factory/fab testing.

    Not what you hope might happen, or what you might get away with, on one batch, or what you heard was OK.
    That might fly for a hobbyist, but certainly not for an industrial user.

    People have been sacked for deciding 'they knew better' than the data sheet.

    This is something Parallax do need to address, if they want to be taken seriously.

    It's actually very simple: If it really is OK, then fix the data sheet, so it says so.
    Electronics is not folklore.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2012-10-26 15:56
    jmg, you're discounting experience. Although the datasheet sets the rules, experience tells you when they can safely be broken.

    I'll give you another example. I recently designed a module that uses a buck regulator IC. The regulator's datasheet specified minimum values for the input and output caps. But the regulator was capable of supplying way more current than my module needed. So I knew from experience that it was safe to fudge a little on the caps and use less than what the datasheet spec'd for the higher current. Although I technically violated the specs, it was still a good, safe, conservative design.

    -Phil
  • RaymanRayman Posts: 14,670
    edited 2012-10-26 16:07
    I have to agree that if Parallax sells things using PLL at 160 MHz, then the datasheet should say that is OK...
    Or, the product should have a disclaimer...
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