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Red Bull: man to jump from 120,000 feet above earth on October 8th

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  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2012-10-14 12:06
    Doesn't the speed of sound change with air pressure, as well as temperature? I would guess that Mach 1.0 is much lower at altitude than at sea level due to the increased mean free path between air molecules.

    -Phil
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2012-10-14 12:18
    skylight wrote: »
    A couple of worrying moments when he was asked to give a countdown and just gave a thumbs up and when asked to detaqch the umbilicals he just sat there and had to be asked again, seemed like he wasn't quite with it perhaps the effects of the pure oxygen?
    Then the tumbling which seemed to go on for an eternity! He mentioned passing out as he descended?
    Great achievement! Just wondering if he pulled his chute early on purpose in honour of Kittenger so as to not break all his records? He was only a few seconds away from breaking the longest freeefall one.

    I think there was some mention of blacking out on his last (76,000?) jump. It may go with the territory. :)

    I also wonder about the early chute deployment. He had enough altitude for a few more seconds.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2012-10-14 12:20
    Indeed so Phil, but while atmospheric density and pressure avary smoothly with altitude temperature does not. Which gives rise to rather complicated variations of the speed of sound with altitude. As shown by our good friend wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Comparison_US_standard_atmosphere_1962.svg&page=1

    I was surprised today to see the temperature going up as he traveled up though the statosphere.
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2012-10-14 12:20
    skylight wrote: »
    A couple of worrying moments when he was asked to give a countdown and just gave a thumbs up and when asked to detaqch the umbilicals he just sat there and had to be asked again, seemed like he wasn't quite with it perhaps the effects of the pure oxygen?

    He hadn't finished praying yet. :)
  • skylightskylight Posts: 1,915
    edited 2012-10-14 12:25
    Publison wrote: »
    He hadn't finished praying yet. :)
    I think I'd have been doing more than praying at that moment :smile:
  • skylightskylight Posts: 1,915
    edited 2012-10-14 12:48
    Heater. wrote: »
    I was surprised today to see the temperature going up as he traveled up though the statosphere.
    Same here, one moment it was -25°C next it was
    1.1°C?
  • StefanL38StefanL38 Posts: 2,292
    edited 2012-10-14 12:54
    the rising temperature is caused by the ultravioliet light. The UV-light heats up the air.
    This is the reason why the temperature rises in a certain altidude.
    here's a picture of the temperature gradient
    http://www.klimedia.ch/kap1/a5.html


    @Ken: did you see the advertising for the propeller while he was free falling? :-)

    best regards
    Stefan
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2012-10-14 15:50
    Question. Was he wearing a astronaut diaper? He was sitting in the tin can for at least 5 hours. And may have needed one stepping outside the door :)

    Although he did do a 90,000 foot jump this year also.
  • Mark_TMark_T Posts: 1,981
    edited 2012-10-14 16:36
    Doesn't the speed of sound change with air pressure, as well as temperature? I would guess that Mach 1.0 is much lower at altitude than at sea level due to the increased mean free path between air molecules.

    -Phil
    For an ideal gas the speed of sound depends only on the temperature - the square root of absolute temperature. Low density gases approach ideal gas behaviour. However the composition of the gas matters, I don't know how much that changes with altitude.

    [edit: thinking about it we already 'know' this: the lower pressure of an aircraft cabin doesn't make our voices change pitch.]
  • BrowserBrowser Posts: 84
    edited 2012-10-14 16:54
    spaceman gotz nuthin on catz. catz dont need no suitz or chutez an alwayz landz on feet:

    E00nl.gif

    -browz
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2012-10-14 17:00
    Browser wrote: »
    spaceman gotz nuthin on catz. catz dont need no suitz or chutez an alwayz landz on feet:

    -browz

    Do you put the butter on your belly or your back?
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2012-10-14 21:51
    On this very day, in 1947, Chuck Yeager first broke the "sound barrier" under powered flight. It's taken exactly 65 years to the day to do the same with unpowered "flight." Although Chuck Yeager was a Real Pilot and deserves the lion's share of applause for his accomplishment, rescuing oneself from a flat spin in free-fall is no mean feat and also deserves some recognition.

    -Phil
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2012-10-14 22:05
    On this very day, in 1947, Chuck Yeager first broke the "sound barrier" under powered flight. It's taken exactly 65 years to the day to do the same with unpowered "flight." l

    More like 13 years. Joe Kittinger did it in 1960.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2012-10-14 22:11
    Joe Kittenger attempted, but did not succeed, in breaking the sound barrier during free-fall in 1960.

    -Phil
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2012-10-14 22:19
    Joe Kittenger attempted, but did not succeed, in breaking the sound barrier during free-fall in 1960.

    -Phil

    There are many sources that state that he did, why do you say he didn't?
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2012-10-14 22:24
    Every report I've read today states that Felix is the first, while acknowledging Joe's 1960 "attempt."

    This from Joe Kittenger's Wikipedia entry:
    "On August 16, 1960, he made the final jump, from the Excelsior III, at 102,800 feet (31,300 m). Towing a small drogue parachute for initial stabilization, he fell for 4 minutes and 36 seconds, reaching a maximum speed of 614 miles per hour (988 km/h) before opening his parachute at 18,000 feet (5,500 m)."

    614 mph is below Mach 1.0.

    -Phil
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2012-10-14 22:39
    I noticed that too. Even checking wikipidea makes no mention of Joe breaking the speed of sound. However, for decades I have known of Joe Kittinger's balloon jump and it was widely reported that he broke the sound barrier.

    Here is just one source from http://www.af.mil/; "In freefall for four and a half minutes, Kittinger fell at speeds up to 714 mph, exceeding the speed of sound."

    Other places report his max speed at 614mph, and this newsreel says 450mph!
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2012-10-14 22:46
    This from the BBC:
    "Austrian Felix Baumgartner has become the first skydiver to go faster than the speed of sound, reaching a maximum velocity of 833.9mph (1,342km/h).

    If you can't trust the Beeb, whom can you trust? :)

    (I'm assuming the af.mil report was written by an E4 corporal transferred to Stars and Stripes from the catering corps.)

    -Phil
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2012-10-14 23:19
    Here is a website that explains the discrepancy of the reported speeds of Kittingers jump. Look about 1/4 the way down the page.
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2012-10-14 23:35
    It appears that, somewhere along the line, somebody meant to hit the "6" key on their Underwood, and hit "7" by mistake. Then someone else recognized that -- wow! -- 714 is greater than the speed of sound. And the rest is history -- sort of.

    -Phil
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2012-10-14 23:42
    It appears that, somewhere along the line, somebody meant to hit the "6" key on their Underwood, and hit "7" by mistake. Then someone else recognized that -- wow! -- 714 is greater than the speed of sound. And the rest is history -- sort of.

    Yup, I agree. So can I get a pass on eating crow this time then? :)
  • BrowserBrowser Posts: 84
    edited 2012-10-14 23:50
    crowz taste awful. nobody shud haz to eat crowz.

    -browz
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2012-10-14 23:51
    W9GFO wrote:
    So can I get a pass on eating crow this time then?

    The Browz has spoken! :)

    -Phil
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2012-10-15 00:01
    It's a great accomplishment to go up 24 miles and free fall back to Earth. Someday astronauts may leap overboard and return from orbital space (99-1,200 miles) but currently this raises a lot of questions. Very good web site citing discrepancies and showing "Colonel Joe Kittinger and Felix Baumgartner at their first press conference after the historic jump. After his journey, it looks like Felix just stepped out of a washing machine.

    http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2012/2012-10-14_4.44.08_pm_edt.png

    On the other hand, the Big Brain Space Program has used DIY and common resources as seen in this chart to explore seven regions of space which currently has achieved biological space flight up to 7.2 miles and machine injection down to 10-nanometers.
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2012-10-15 00:16
    Hey, it just occurred to me that there have been quite a few people to fly supersonic without a vehicle. There are many instances of pilots ejecting above Mach 1 and even Mach 2. There's even one case of a Blackbird disintegrating at Mach 3 where the pilot survived.
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2012-10-15 00:38
    Passenger planes can average fast subsonic fights of 600 miles per hour and with a tail wind monitors have reported an excess of 729 miles per hour during flights when the plane is traveling above the ocean. Though to go supersonic requires an average speed of 768 miles per hour.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2012-10-15 03:27
    W9GFO wrote: »
    Hey, it just occurred to me that there have been quite a few people to fly supersonic without a vehicle. There are many instances of pilots ejecting above Mach 1 and even Mach 2. There's even one case of a Blackbird disintegrating at Mach 3 where the pilot survived.

    So I suppose that we have to divide this into those that have been dumped out of a vehicle going faster than Mach 1 and those that have physically crossed the barrier without the aid and protection of a vehicle.

    This all sounds very 'lawyer-like'. I am not exactly sure what he did other than go higher. After all, how fast does sound travel in the stratosphere, or does it travel at all? And the longest free fall record may have not been broken.

    About the only thing I know for sure is that I don't know where to buy Red Bull in Taiwan.

    "In the Earth's atmosphere, the chief factor affecting the speed of sound is the temperature. For a given ideal gas with constant heat capacity and composition, sound speed is dependent solelyupon temperature; see Details below. In such an ideal case, the effects of decreased density and decreased pressure of altitude cancel each other out, save for the residual effect of temperature.Since temperature (and thus the speed of sound) decreases with increasing altitude up to 11 km, sound is refracted upward, away from listeners on the ground, creating an acoustic shadow at some distance from the source.[2] The decrease of the sound speed with height is referred to as a negative sound speed gradient.
    However, there are variations in this trend above 11 km. In particular, in the stratosphere above about 20 km, the speed of sound increases with height, due to an increase in temperature from heating within the ozone layer. This produces a positive sound speed gradient in this region. Still another region of positive gradient occurs at very high altitudes, in the aptly-named thermosphereabove 90 km." From Wikipedia about the Speed of Sound
  • W9GFOW9GFO Posts: 4,010
    edited 2012-10-15 04:55
    So I suppose that we have to divide this into those that have been dumped out of a vehicle going faster than Mach 1 and those that have physically crossed the barrier without the aid and protection of a vehicle.

    Or perhaps intentional vs unitentional.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2012-10-15 06:21
    Intentional or unintentional would have to add further categories -- pushed, shot down, or self-motivated. Semantics is such a #@!%^!
  • Mark_TMark_T Posts: 1,981
    edited 2012-10-15 10:22
    Humanoido wrote: »
    Passenger planes can average fast subsonic fights of 600 miles per hour and with a tail wind monitors have reported an excess of 729 miles per hour during flights when the plane is traveling above the ocean. Though to go supersonic requires an average speed of 768 miles per hour.

    Ground speeds don't count for Mach numbers. In the jet stream 100mph tail wind isn't that unusual... And at typical airliner altitudes the speed of sound is more like 660mph due to the lower temperatures: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Comparison_US_standard_atmosphere_1962.svg&page=1
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