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Question about self-charging flashlight — Parallax Forums

Question about self-charging flashlight

lardomlardom Posts: 1,659
edited 2012-09-14 10:29 in General Discussion
I have a novelty flashlight that recharges by shaking a short dowel shaped magnet back and forth through a coil. The pcb has an electrolytic cap and some diodes. It's very inefficient but the idea behind it is intriguing. I initially thought that the circuit would not add a load as it charged but then I thought the energized coil would have to exert an opposing force on the permanent magnet.
I guess in this sense any material that can conduct electricity has magnetic properties. Is it correct to say that ferrous metals are unique in their ability to be magnetic in the absence of an electric current?

Comments

  • RDL2004RDL2004 Posts: 2,554
    edited 2012-09-13 08:53
    i didn't actually look anything up (such as on wikipedia) but I think there are a couple of other metals that are slightly magnetic, cobalt and nickel maybe?
  • davejamesdavejames Posts: 4,047
    edited 2012-09-13 09:04
    lardom wrote: »
    Is it correct to say that ferrous metals are unique in their ability to be magnetic in the absence of an electric current?

    I believe all ferrous metals have magnetic characteristics - aka "permeability". However, that doesn't mean they are all magnetized.

    Think about the difference between a "permanent" and "non-permanent" magnet.

    There is probably some amount of back-EMF that will oppose the movement of the shaking magnet, but it'll be overcome by your manly strength.
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2012-09-13 09:15
    lardom wrote: »
    Is it correct to say that ferrous metals are unique in their ability to be magnetic in the absence of an electric current?

    Ferromagnetism is the general term given to a material that can exhibit magnetism without electric current running through it. However, check out this from wikipedia:


    "Ferromagnetism is a property not just of the chemical make-up of a material, but of its crystalline structure and microscopic organization. There are ferromagnetic metal alloys whose constituents are not themselves ferromagnetic, called Heusler alloys, named after Fritz Heusler. Conversely there are non-magnetic alloys, such as types of stainless steel, composed almost exclusively of ferromagnetic metals."


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferromagnetism

    Also consider if you take a sheet of aluminium and run a strong magnet over it, you will induce magnetic fields in the aluminium and cause the sheet to move with the magnet, though somewhat out of phase.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,259
    edited 2012-09-13 09:40
    @Eddy: Copper pipe tain't ferrous neither! :)
  • davejamesdavejames Posts: 4,047
    edited 2012-09-13 10:53
    ...I bet if the temperature of the copper pipe and magnets were monitored throughout the passes, there'd be an increase. Them eddy currents gotta be disappated in some fashion.

    Oh - forgot one thing
    THAT WAS TOO COOL!!!!!!
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2012-09-13 13:13
    Damn, I was trying to demo that effect by having a magnet slide down an ally sheet. Sort of worked. Never though to use a tube.

    Any way if you crack open an old fashioned "mechanical" speedometer you will see that that is how it works. A spinning magent turns an ally disk against spring. Faster the car, faster the magnet spins and the more the disk is turned.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2012-09-13 13:15
    davejames,

    And consider this. if the tube were superconduting the magnet could never fall. As there are no resitive losses in the eddy currents the reverse field they create would exactly ballance that of the magnet.
  • davejamesdavejames Posts: 4,047
    edited 2012-09-13 13:25
    Heater. wrote: »
    And consider this. if the tube were superconduting the magnet could never fall. As there are no resitive losses in the eddy currents the reverse field they create would exactly ballance that of the magnet.

    ...but isn't movement required for the eddy currents to be formed?

    BTW - are you 6V or 12V? :smile:
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,259
    edited 2012-09-13 15:25
    More Lenz's Law witchcraft:
  • piguy101piguy101 Posts: 248
    edited 2012-09-13 16:16
    erco, I soon as I saw the tube and magnet video, I tried it and it is so cool!
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2012-09-13 18:18
    davejames,
    ...but isn't movement required for the eddy currents to be formed?

    Well, assuming you have just moved the maget up close to the semiconductor, that motion created the eddy currents, that made the field that resist the falling of the magnet. When you are not pushing anymore the eddy currents only have to balance the force of gravity on the mass of the magnet. The thing reaches eqilibrium and can fall no more. There are no resistive losses to the eddy currents in the superconductor so the magnet is stuck there for good.

    Or that is about how I convince myself a magnet levitating over a superconductor works. See various youtube videos, for example:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpH_TD_SVTc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pO2eDJBr50E

    Although the second video stumps me because the magnet is resting on a warm super conductor and it then jumps up when the superconductor is cooled!
    How so, where did the energy come from to push it up?
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2012-09-13 18:27
    davejames,
    BTW - are you 6V or 12V?

    Sometimes I'm 4V like this big bugger that I have and am I'm still hoping to light up one day:
    http://www.tubecollector.org/vcr97.htm


    More pactically (and often) I'm 6.3V
    http://www.tubecollector.org/ecc83.htm
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2012-09-13 19:51
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-09-13 20:30
    Heater. wrote: »
    How so, where did the energy come from to push it up?

    Superconductor do more than just conduct really well. The repel magnetic fields. Or so I "learned" (memorized) in my modern physics class.
  • lardomlardom Posts: 1,659
    edited 2012-09-13 22:10
    I really do know better but for a couple of minutes I wondered if I had discovered a chink in the laws of physics. :innocent: Well, at least something close to unity. My original plan was to design a motor consisting of several magnets placed near the edge of a non-metallic flywheel. The stator will be an electromagnet. I want to program a Propeller to use the coil of the eletromagnet as a hall sensor to sense the permanent magnet then energise the electromagnet to repel the permanent magnets. I'm after proof of concept.
  • ElectricAyeElectricAye Posts: 4,561
    edited 2012-09-13 22:28
    lardom wrote: »
    ... I want to program a Propeller to use the coil of the eletromagnet as a hall sensor to sense the permanent magnet then energise the electromagnet to repel the permanent magnets. I'm after proof of concept.

    It's not clear to me what you're trying to do, but part of what you said sounds a little bit like how BLDC controllers work:

    From Wikipedia:
    "...Some designs use Hall effect sensors or a rotary encoder to directly measure the rotor's position. Others measure the back EMF in the undriven coils to infer the rotor position, eliminating the need for separate Hall effect sensors, and therefore are often called sensorless controllers...."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor

    Hope that helps???
  • Dr_AculaDr_Acula Posts: 5,484
    edited 2012-09-13 23:26
    My original plan was to design a motor consisting of several magnets placed near the edge of a non-metallic flywheel. The stator will be an electromagnet. I want to program a Propeller to use the coil of the eletromagnet as a hall sensor to sense the permanent magnet then energise the electromagnet to repel the permanent magnets. I'm after proof of concept.

    That would work fine. Take a look at the way brushless DC motors work http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brushless_DC_electric_motor
  • lardomlardom Posts: 1,659
    edited 2012-09-14 07:25
    @ElectricAye & Dr_Acula, those are great links. That's what I'm after. Learning what they have to say will speed up the process.
    [COLOR="#B22222"]mov[/COLOR]  Real_World    Theory
    

    Not a great analogy. I'm trying to go from head knowledge to hands-on.
  • davejamesdavejames Posts: 4,047
    edited 2012-09-14 08:38
    Heater. wrote: »
    Sometimes I'm 4V like this big bugger that I have and am I'm still hoping to light up one day:
    http://www.tubecollector.org/vcr97.htm


    More pactically (and often) I'm 6.3V
    http://www.tubecollector.org/ecc83.htm

    ...ahhh - things of beauty, they are!
  • davejamesdavejames Posts: 4,047
    edited 2012-09-14 09:12
    @Heater - thanks for the links.

    Very cool...literally!
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2012-09-14 10:29
    Duane Degn,
    Superconductor do more than just conduct really well. The repel magnetic fields.

    And so I'm led to believe as well. So let's say in simple terms the super conductor is expelling the magnetic field and hence pushing the magnet up.

    But my question still stands.

    To lift the magnet requires energy, E = mgh, (mass of magnet * height lifted * gravitational constant)

    But we have just sucked all the energy out of the plate my coolin it to make it a super conductor.

    So where did the energy required to lift the magnet come from?
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