I just downloaded the Windows 8.1 free upgrade. Sheesh, a huge 2+ GB download that took a looooong time over DSL. Far from a little patch, it must be all-new top to bottom. IIRC, my initial Win8 download last year was much smaller and faster. Once downloaded, 8.1 installed quickly & easily, can't say yet if it's any better. I had previously used "Classic Shell" with Win8, which had a start menu. No problems.
I have two Winderz only machines, both running XP. Both are netbooks I use for programming my 'bots and running the odd telescope control program that is windows only. On the desktop/workbench, I have my iMac running OS X 10 point something or other, a homebrew MSI box dual booting W7 and Fedora 19 and an elderly SGI machine running IRIX 6.5. (Trying to bring a Sparc box back to life to run Solaris)
Windows 7 seldom sees the light of day, getting booted up every couple of months. That may change a bit as I find my company uses M$ email in a way my Mac dislikes. (Have to be able to access those urgent emails about safe driving tips and customer requirements that don't apply to our office!) I know I could use Wine or some other "virtualizing emulator" to make things work, but I'm just lazy that way! ;-)
Touch screens, I have to admit, have some "cool factor", but I just can't imagine having to reach over my mouse/keyboard to fiddle with my display screen. :-|
I've found overall that Windows XP has been very stable (Still use it) and Windows 7 has been good too once you get used to some of the extra security quirks and odd changes for 64-bit support. When I've run into problems most of the time it has been with a device driver, bad memory module, or a third party application. As long as you are careful where you get your applications and only install what you need the systems can run well. Most of the software that I have or want to use runs on Windows so that is what I use. I'm also a fan of Linux and use that OS too. I'll probably give Windows 8 a try but expect that there may be issues with it at first until they get the first Service Packs out to make it work as it should....
Robert
Yep... When I have to use W7, I really have no complaints. Not sure why I have it tho'... I think Frys gave me a copy when I bought all the parts to build the Linux box.
Soon all my Windows using friends will be asking me to fix up their Windows 8/8.1 boxes when they go all spastic. These people have only just learned how to keep their XP under control.
It's been going on a lot recently with Win 7:
Them: "Why does my laptop keep stalling when playing video"
Me: "I have no idea, I have not used Windows since 1997"
Them: "But you work in the computer business, you must know how to fix it"
Me: "s**t". Now I have to spend ages Googling around for a fix...so as not to lose face.
A week later...
Them: "Why doen't WIFI work on my laptop?
Me: "I have no idea, I have not used Windows since 1997"
Them: "But you work in the computer business, you must know how to fix it"
Me: "s**t". Now I have to spend ages Googling around for a fix...so as not to lose face.
A week later...
Them: "My laptop says I need a Java update. How do I do that?"
Me: Spends time installing Java update.
A week later...
Them: "My laptop says I need a Java up date. How do I do that?"
Many suburban bars around here have WIFI or even an internet connected PC to use for free (Windows based of course, there is no escape!). Only when you go to the city centre every place wants money of you to use their wireless.
started with win3.1, (I had to type win from the dos prompt to run it)
Loved it
Then windows 98
Loved it
Then windows XP
Loved it
Now windows 7
Love it
My mate has windows 8
I just dont get it!!!! (where is the windows explorer?)
I still use a windows 98 machine which I use to play Homeworld and do a bit of dos programming, it has nice luxuries like a parallel port and rs232 serial port. (oh I do miss them), and I dont find it slow!
NEVER had a BSOD - I've read about them but NEVER experienced it.
Have a raspberry pi - orrible operating system - all that command line stuff to do anything even slightly unusual (like install a program)- you would think they'd invent a computer to help with that stuff - like provide a screen icon to click with all the technical hoo hah hidden away from innocent eyes.......
Was hoping to go bare metal on it but too many hurdles..
I guess we're made the way we are and we use what suits us... one mans meat....
Dave
NEVER had a BSOD - I've read about them but NEVER experienced it.
Are you sure you ever turned those machines on?:)
Have you never seen a BSOD on public displays like the arrivals/departure screens at railway stations and all manner of other things. I have seem BSODs all over the place over the decades.
Yep, I would avoid bare metal on the Pi. Too much trouble and very complicated for little gain. I'd much rather do that on a Propeller.
But thank God there still operating systems around that are not all pointy clicky. I want my machines to do weird stuff and no one is ever going to make enough dialog boxes to make that possible in a GUI.
Despite the ever so easy GUI on Windows I've noticed over the years that many users have no idea where their files go when the save them or download them. They just can't find them. Such a simple thing. It's weird that they like to suffer so much.
...many users have no idea where their files go when the save them or download them. They just can't find them. Such a simple thing. It's weird that they like to suffer so much.
Yes, indeed. To me, this bizarre phenomenon is one of those litmus tests that Windows has failed year after year. Why on earth would they never fix this? It seems so fundamental, yet it persists. Even more aggravating is how often Windows can't even find the files when you search for them. It's like the software is schizoid or has undergone a corpus callosotomy - it's left brain has no idea what it's right brain is doing - ever. Considering how creations are often reflections of their creators, this Windows "architecture" makes me wonder what's going on inside the heads at Microsoft. And why do the rest of us have to put up with it? Why hasn't the marketplace eaten them alive?
Have a raspberry pi - orrible operating system - all that command line stuff to do anything even slightly unusual (like install a program)- you would think they'd invent a computer to help with that stuff - like provide a screen icon to click with all the technical hoo hah hidden away from innocent eyes.......
Yes, the raspberry pi and its operating system will never amount to anything. People will forget about both in a year or so.
(sudo apt-get install <package name> - that is a bit if tricky hoo-ha)
I've installed more Linux Mint on machines in the last six months than in the last six years because of Windows 8.
Currently I'm providing customers the choice between Windows 7 and Linux Mint. It's currently running 50/50 on installs.
So far I've kept my desktop and laptops with Windows 7, I really like it.
I've been forced to deal with the Metro style interface on Windows Server 2012. I'm finally at the point were I don't get ticked off and want to smash it every time I use it, but I'm still in no hurry to see it on my other machines.
Amazing that this thread has any life at all. Windows updates are just a fact of computing life (if that is your poison).
The only time I've ever had failures with windoze is when automatic updates are turned on or some hardware problem happened. I've had hardware failures with Linux too.
VirtualBox is great. I have a dozen linux/windoze computers in one machine which saves tons of money and office space.
I've installed more Linux Mint on machines in the last six months than in the last six years because of Windows 8.
Currently I'm providing customers the choice between Windows 7 and Linux Mint. It's currently running 50/50 on installs.
I haven't found a "happy" Windows 8 user yet...
Ok, I must be one of those odd ones because I am getting used to it and so far Windows 8.1 has been working very well for me. I just finished consolidating my main Windows XP system and an old legacy Windows 2000 system (used for over 9 years) onto a single Windows 8.1 based system. I have all of the applications I need running on it (both old and new) and so far the system performs really well. It seems that the underlying OS works just fine as a platform for running a lot of older applications.
The biggest difference is the interface to launch your programs and most of the programs that I use on a regular basis have icons on the desktop to launch them. You can boot right to the desktop now (or switch to it) and once you're there it looks almost the same as earlier versions. It's really not so bad. I use a few of the newer "APP" style programs (my kids like Tap Tiles) but mostly I use it just like I always have. Switching between the Metro Interface and the desktop is easy if you want to. I've got dual monitors on the computer and can use the desktop on both but sometimes leave the Metro interface on one and the desktop on the other. No issues.
At the moment there are only a few gripes I have about it:
- One Windows 8 and more so on 8.1 Microsoft really wants to force you into making your user account a "Live" account which they recommend. Personally I think it is a horrible idea for your main admin account. You can cancel that process on 8.1 and just use a local account which is what I prefer even though MS doesn't like it. If you've already linked them then you can go under PC settings and disconnect the account to revert back to a local one. You can still use a "Live" account for apps individually if you want. Or, you can create another account that is linked with a "Live" account.
- Driver support: I wish they had a way to sandbox and leverage legacy drivers for hardware. I have a large format 11"x17" scanner that runs well under Windows XP but there aren't any newer drivers for it. This is an issue for a lot of older hardware and peripherals that could otherwise still have a long useful life. At least this shouldn't affect many of our Propeller projects since the driver interface is based on the FTDI chipset and FTDI has generic drivers that work and should be supported on future versions of Windows that come out. Because of this I will probably need to keep a stand alone XP system just for scanning.
- A few of the default programs (display images, PDF viewer, etc) are apps by default and I'm looking at replacing those with more traditional programs since the Apps are more suited for a tablet and I think the programs would work much better.
So, other than a standalone system running Windows 98SE for a device programmer (ISA Bus), and an XP system for scanning, and a laptop on Window 7, the rest are moving up to 8.1
You guys must be part of the minority. I'm heading out this afternoon to install another copy of "classic shell" on an 8 machine. I know 8.1 has implemented this, but I try not to introduce raw code on my customers. (Been burned too many times in the past.) Microsoft has this "ship it anyway, and we'll fix it on the road" mentality that I'm really please Parallax avoids.
I think it is time to send Bill Gates to a re-education camp where he has to learn a new OS every six months for the rest of his life or be forced to migrate to a lower class life style in society.
Since that is a non-starter.. I am trying to ignore being forced into re-education for Windows 8.
"Been burned too many times in the past." is a world-wide credo amongst millions of MS customers that either got themselves an Apple or became Linux geeks.
There is life after Windows... and it may not be Android.
I am not a Pavlovian Consumer, I make less compulsive decisions with each passing year.
I haven't ranted in a while, so please bear with me... <ahem>
I am quite happy with 8.1. It does what I absolutely need it to do, and 95% of what I would like it to do, with the help of utils like Classic Shell, et al. Heck, I use the 'Classic Menu', because I can actually have folders in my Start Menu where I keep all my most used apps tidily organized.
The difference is that I'm not going to whine and bellyache about that last 5 percent, or what OS is better. Each has their place. If {insert your Linux distro here} does what you need it to, so be it. If Windows does what you need it to do, then so be it. It just so happens that for what I absolutely need to do, there is no Linux alternative. That may change in the future, but until then, Windows is it.
I don't need to hear again about the Microsoft Monopoly ruining everything for free thinkers and tinkerers, or bemoaning the good ol' days when users had to be smart to use a PC (the dumbing down of society was around long before Microsoft), or deal with the stranglely condescending attitude that Linux users seem to have toward... well, just about everyone. Whatever arguments you have for me are irrelevant, for the reason I stated above.
Yes, 'tinkerers' was deliberate.
To sum up, regardless of OS, if you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, then change your attitude. Makes for a generally better outlook on life.
Whew! Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.
I think you mean Steve Balmer. Bill Gates has not been at MS for some years now. He runs his charity with his wife. He left Steve in charge and no longer is even involved in the operations let alone what they sell. However, I think he was the one that started the
In the past I might have ranted back but it turns out to be less and less necessary as time goes by. Let me explain:
There was a time when my banks web service would only work on Internet Explorer.
There was a time when if you wanted to program a Propeller you needed Windows to run the Propeller Tool.
There was a time when if you wanted to read the documents people sent you you needed Microsoft Word.
Want to configure you FPGA, you needed Windows.
And so on and so on. It was almost impossible to function without paying your dues to MS. But the money is not the point here. I always considered it totally insane that the world had become so totally dependent on a single corporation in a foreign country over which it had no control for it's entire computing infra structure.
My argument is not about the technical merits of Windows or the details of its user interface or how much you have to pay to get it. Perhaps it's perfect and cheap, I don't care. My argument is about control, choice, independence, freedom. I do not want to me beholden to a single supplier of the tools I use.
Luckily things have changed a lot, slowly the world has claimed some independence. We have open standards for the WEB, for document formats, for programming languages and so on.
Microsoft has slipped from being a overwhelming dictator to minor irritant.
...if you don't like something, change it...
Yes, exactly. Richard Stallman saw this problem coming decades before anyone else and started working on changing it. Soon to be followed by hoards of programmers the world over who want to make something good for themselves.
You can see that "revolt" in action on this forum with Parallax getting behind open source cross platform tools, with the hundreds of projects published here etc.
If you don't want to be part of that global party that is very sad. You are missing a lot of fun. You should at least be grateful to the worlds "free thinkers and tinkerers" for trying to make the world a better place and open the door of your cell a little.
...for what I absolutely need to do, there is no Linux alternative.
Sadly that is still a common situation for many. I'm curious to know what it is that is causing the problem for you.
We have recently been evaluating a very nice piece of hardware that can only be configured with a tool that runs on Windows. We have a hard time explaining to the manufacturer what an unnecessary inconvenience that is and the problems it will cause if we want to deploy their device widely.
Bill Gates has not been at MS for some years now. He runs his charity with his wife. He left Steve in charge and no longer is even involved in the operations let alone what they sell.
Steve Ballmer is pretty much gone too. He announced his "Retirement" this year, probably due in part to the Windows 8 fiasco. All Microsoft has to do is find his replacement.
Comments
Windows 7 seldom sees the light of day, getting booted up every couple of months. That may change a bit as I find my company uses M$ email in a way my Mac dislikes. (Have to be able to access those urgent emails about safe driving tips and customer requirements that don't apply to our office!) I know I could use Wine or some other "virtualizing emulator" to make things work, but I'm just lazy that way! ;-)
Touch screens, I have to admit, have some "cool factor", but I just can't imagine having to reach over my mouse/keyboard to fiddle with my display screen. :-|
With that it's time to grab a bit of sleep.
Amanda
Yep... When I have to use W7, I really have no complaints. Not sure why I have it tho'... I think Frys gave me a copy when I bought all the parts to build the Linux box.
@
Soon all my Windows using friends will be asking me to fix up their Windows 8/8.1 boxes when they go all spastic. These people have only just learned how to keep their XP under control.
It's been going on a lot recently with Win 7:
Them: "Why does my laptop keep stalling when playing video"
Me: "I have no idea, I have not used Windows since 1997"
Them: "But you work in the computer business, you must know how to fix it"
Me: "s**t". Now I have to spend ages Googling around for a fix...so as not to lose face.
A week later...
Them: "Why doen't WIFI work on my laptop?
Me: "I have no idea, I have not used Windows since 1997"
Them: "But you work in the computer business, you must know how to fix it"
Me: "s**t". Now I have to spend ages Googling around for a fix...so as not to lose face.
A week later...
Them: "My laptop says I need a Java update. How do I do that?"
Me: Spends time installing Java update.
A week later...
Them: "My laptop says I need a Java up date. How do I do that?"
Me: Goes out and get's drunk.
It's endless.
At least you are sacrificing to help your friends!
Mostly I just don't have any friends any more !
Loved it
Then windows 98
Loved it
Then windows XP
Loved it
Now windows 7
Love it
My mate has windows 8
I just dont get it!!!! (where is the windows explorer?)
I still use a windows 98 machine which I use to play Homeworld and do a bit of dos programming, it has nice luxuries like a parallel port and rs232 serial port. (oh I do miss them), and I dont find it slow!
NEVER had a BSOD - I've read about them but NEVER experienced it.
Have a raspberry pi - orrible operating system - all that command line stuff to do anything even slightly unusual (like install a program)- you would think they'd invent a computer to help with that stuff - like provide a screen icon to click with all the technical hoo hah hidden away from innocent eyes.......
Was hoping to go bare metal on it but too many hurdles..
I guess we're made the way we are and we use what suits us... one mans meat....
Dave
Have you never seen a BSOD on public displays like the arrivals/departure screens at railway stations and all manner of other things. I have seem BSODs all over the place over the decades.
Yep, I would avoid bare metal on the Pi. Too much trouble and very complicated for little gain. I'd much rather do that on a Propeller.
But thank God there still operating systems around that are not all pointy clicky. I want my machines to do weird stuff and no one is ever going to make enough dialog boxes to make that possible in a GUI.
Despite the ever so easy GUI on Windows I've noticed over the years that many users have no idea where their files go when the save them or download them. They just can't find them. Such a simple thing. It's weird that they like to suffer so much.
Yes, indeed. To me, this bizarre phenomenon is one of those litmus tests that Windows has failed year after year. Why on earth would they never fix this? It seems so fundamental, yet it persists. Even more aggravating is how often Windows can't even find the files when you search for them. It's like the software is schizoid or has undergone a corpus callosotomy - it's left brain has no idea what it's right brain is doing - ever. Considering how creations are often reflections of their creators, this Windows "architecture" makes me wonder what's going on inside the heads at Microsoft. And why do the rest of us have to put up with it? Why hasn't the marketplace eaten them alive?
When you use DOS, you don't use the command prompt? You have some sort of graphical interface for installing DOS programs?
Yes, the raspberry pi and its operating system will never amount to anything. People will forget about both in a year or so.
(sudo apt-get install <package name> - that is a bit if tricky hoo-ha)
Cambridge University has their Baking Pi course for bare metal programming.
Cheers!
Currently I'm providing customers the choice between Windows 7 and Linux Mint. It's currently running 50/50 on installs.
I haven't found a "happy" Windows 8 user yet...
Jeff
I've been forced to deal with the Metro style interface on Windows Server 2012. I'm finally at the point were I don't get ticked off and want to smash it every time I use it, but I'm still in no hurry to see it on my other machines.
C.W.
On Nov. 3 I loaded Win8. On Nov. 10th I reloaded Win8. On Nov. 17, I reloaded Win8. (notice a pattern here?)
Finally on Nov. 20th I loaded Linux Mint. Not looked back since.
Well, did try to load Win7 back on once but it wouldn't work with the new Linux format. Maybe I should try this Virtualbox you speak of.
The only time I've ever had failures with windoze is when automatic updates are turned on or some hardware problem happened. I've had hardware failures with Linux too.
VirtualBox is great. I have a dozen linux/windoze computers in one machine which saves tons of money and office space.
Jeepers creepers!
I guess Dr. Acula and I are in the minority...
Wish I could find his post about how it booted in 4 seconds and was incredibly stable. Hope he didn't recant & delete it.
This cheese stands alone...
Ok, I must be one of those odd ones because I am getting used to it and so far Windows 8.1 has been working very well for me. I just finished consolidating my main Windows XP system and an old legacy Windows 2000 system (used for over 9 years) onto a single Windows 8.1 based system. I have all of the applications I need running on it (both old and new) and so far the system performs really well. It seems that the underlying OS works just fine as a platform for running a lot of older applications.
The biggest difference is the interface to launch your programs and most of the programs that I use on a regular basis have icons on the desktop to launch them. You can boot right to the desktop now (or switch to it) and once you're there it looks almost the same as earlier versions. It's really not so bad. I use a few of the newer "APP" style programs (my kids like Tap Tiles) but mostly I use it just like I always have. Switching between the Metro Interface and the desktop is easy if you want to. I've got dual monitors on the computer and can use the desktop on both but sometimes leave the Metro interface on one and the desktop on the other. No issues.
At the moment there are only a few gripes I have about it:
- One Windows 8 and more so on 8.1 Microsoft really wants to force you into making your user account a "Live" account which they recommend. Personally I think it is a horrible idea for your main admin account. You can cancel that process on 8.1 and just use a local account which is what I prefer even though MS doesn't like it. If you've already linked them then you can go under PC settings and disconnect the account to revert back to a local one. You can still use a "Live" account for apps individually if you want. Or, you can create another account that is linked with a "Live" account.
- Driver support: I wish they had a way to sandbox and leverage legacy drivers for hardware. I have a large format 11"x17" scanner that runs well under Windows XP but there aren't any newer drivers for it. This is an issue for a lot of older hardware and peripherals that could otherwise still have a long useful life. At least this shouldn't affect many of our Propeller projects since the driver interface is based on the FTDI chipset and FTDI has generic drivers that work and should be supported on future versions of Windows that come out. Because of this I will probably need to keep a stand alone XP system just for scanning.
- A few of the default programs (display images, PDF viewer, etc) are apps by default and I'm looking at replacing those with more traditional programs since the Apps are more suited for a tablet and I think the programs would work much better.
So, other than a standalone system running Windows 98SE for a device programmer (ISA Bus), and an XP system for scanning, and a laptop on Window 7, the rest are moving up to 8.1
Robert
Jeff
Since that is a non-starter.. I am trying to ignore being forced into re-education for Windows 8.
"Been burned too many times in the past." is a world-wide credo amongst millions of MS customers that either got themselves an Apple or became Linux geeks.
There is life after Windows... and it may not be Android.
I am not a Pavlovian Consumer, I make less compulsive decisions with each passing year.
Great! Let me interpret: "I still need an OS from 15 years ago to do what I need to
do." No idea what that is but it seems to need a decade old OS.
Tell me again, in what way was this Windows 8.1 upgrade working well for you?
I haven't ranted in a while, so please bear with me... <ahem>
I am quite happy with 8.1. It does what I absolutely need it to do, and 95% of what I would like it to do, with the help of utils like Classic Shell, et al. Heck, I use the 'Classic Menu', because I can actually have folders in my Start Menu where I keep all my most used apps tidily organized.
The difference is that I'm not going to whine and bellyache about that last 5 percent, or what OS is better. Each has their place. If {insert your Linux distro here} does what you need it to, so be it. If Windows does what you need it to do, then so be it. It just so happens that for what I absolutely need to do, there is no Linux alternative. That may change in the future, but until then, Windows is it.
I don't need to hear again about the Microsoft Monopoly ruining everything for free thinkers and tinkerers, or bemoaning the good ol' days when users had to be smart to use a PC (the dumbing down of society was around long before Microsoft), or deal with the stranglely condescending attitude that Linux users seem to have toward... well, just about everyone.
Yes, 'tinkerers' was deliberate.
To sum up, regardless of OS, if you don't like something, change it. If you can't change it, then change your attitude. Makes for a generally better outlook on life.
Whew! Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.
Nice rant.
In the past I might have ranted back but it turns out to be less and less necessary as time goes by. Let me explain:
There was a time when my banks web service would only work on Internet Explorer.
There was a time when if you wanted to program a Propeller you needed Windows to run the Propeller Tool.
There was a time when if you wanted to read the documents people sent you you needed Microsoft Word.
Want to configure you FPGA, you needed Windows.
And so on and so on. It was almost impossible to function without paying your dues to MS. But the money is not the point here. I always considered it totally insane that the world had become so totally dependent on a single corporation in a foreign country over which it had no control for it's entire computing infra structure.
My argument is not about the technical merits of Windows or the details of its user interface or how much you have to pay to get it. Perhaps it's perfect and cheap, I don't care. My argument is about control, choice, independence, freedom. I do not want to me beholden to a single supplier of the tools I use.
Luckily things have changed a lot, slowly the world has claimed some independence. We have open standards for the WEB, for document formats, for programming languages and so on.
Microsoft has slipped from being a overwhelming dictator to minor irritant. Yes, exactly. Richard Stallman saw this problem coming decades before anyone else and started working on changing it. Soon to be followed by hoards of programmers the world over who want to make something good for themselves.
You can see that "revolt" in action on this forum with Parallax getting behind open source cross platform tools, with the hundreds of projects published here etc.
If you don't want to be part of that global party that is very sad. You are missing a lot of fun. You should at least be grateful to the worlds "free thinkers and tinkerers" for trying to make the world a better place and open the door of your cell a little. Sadly that is still a common situation for many. I'm curious to know what it is that is causing the problem for you.
We have recently been evaluating a very nice piece of hardware that can only be configured with a tool that runs on Windows. We have a hard time explaining to the manufacturer what an unnecessary inconvenience that is and the problems it will cause if we want to deploy their device widely.
Yes I'm still a happy windows 8 user
I can't get a BSOD. The links on that page do not work.
"Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"
Steve Ballmer is pretty much gone too. He announced his "Retirement" this year, probably due in part to the Windows 8 fiasco. All Microsoft has to do is find his replacement.
(But it's good for business if you fix/clean computers...)
It's handy for the initial download of Firefox or Chrome.