Strangely enough one of our products is a huge Pascal program for an embedded system. It has been a royal pain moving it around from platform to platform.
Anyway it does not solve my poor boy problem. I can build Pascal programs for pretty much any ARM with Free Pascal. But then how to get the code into the damn chip for no more than 20 dollars and without any proprietary non cross platform tools?
I'm curious as to what features of the Prop Tool you might be missing when it comes to Prop II?
In my mind the greatest feature of the Prop Tool is it's lack of features. That is it's really easy for a beginner to start with.
Anyway perhaps you should let Jazzed know your desires whilst he is simplifying SimpleIDE for Spin programmers.
I think you have an excellent idea re: the "SX Key-like thingy for a specific ARM chip or ARM family". That's what I have been fishing for for ages now. No special IDE required ,just a hardware download dongle (like the Prop Plug) and a suitable program to drive it. All nicely documented and as you say stick to one popular, useful, cheap ARM chip or family.
Great to know CooCox is on the job! BTW, what is their motivation? What's their business model? Do they get some financial support from ARM Holdings?
Also, it is fascinating that an LM4F120 costs TI less than an FTDI chip...and since the LM4F120 has USB 2.0 connectivity, why not use it? Manufacturing volumes go up, and per-unit price goes down.
edit: MikroPascal for ARM... Fascinating!
Not sure, I think they may get help from Nuvoton & ST
The LM4F120 may not quite cost less, but it is an internal cost, and it seems to have larger buffers than any std speed FTDI,
so I expect TI may also be chasing performance with this move.
- plus they could potentially get Timing/Counter support in the debug, as well as a UART channel, (and even CAN ?) all for free. - just need the SW effort to add it.
I see the Schematic does tag a VCOM connection, as well as what look like an external ICDI and an internal pin-option JTAG.
- so quite a few extra features, { even if they missed Ti
Perhaps, I'm behind the times. Having given up with that awful STM32 kit. ARMs always seemed to need JTAG hardware and special download software.
Just to really upset me the STM32 kit uses that RIDE IDE which limits the size of you programs unless you buy the full version (which I don't need or want) despite the fact that it is using the open source GCC compiler which presumably does not care how big my programs are.
Then the STM32 is fixed so that it cannot be used with the opensource JTAG software and so on and so on.
The business model of Raisonance and others seems to be, let's take a free compiler, strangle any chance of actually being able to use it to get code into a chip and then ask for money to un-strangle it.
There is a reason they have sold nearly in half million Raspberry Pi ARM boards in half a year.
I've used the Rowley CrossWorks tools for ARM development for many years, with their JTAG adapter, and have had very few problems. Any problems I have had have been fixed very quickly by Rowley. Rowley could have developed their own compiler, as they have done for their other tools, but decided to use gcc as it is pretty good. They did develop their own libraries, unlike most other companies that simply repackage gcc and Eclipse, and have their own (excellent) IDE.
I've not had any problems with the free tools provided with the various low-cost kits, including those from ST, come to that.
Khmm its very late here so im not really up to googling it, i will in the morning if no one se has...
You guys keep talking about a generic propplug/sx key type deal for different arm ucontrollers/cpus.. have you by any chance seen the bus blaster from dangerous prototypes? i use there bus porate and i know it has very slow jtag support for any devices that open ocd supports. the bus blaster is a more specialized device used for jtag with a bunch of fpga and arm parts. maybe it will work with this board if not maybe it will work with your st board heater . although it is 30 bucks i belive its probably worth the price just for how many devices it supports alone, ircc you can use it with coocox.
I'm curious as to what features of the Prop Tool you might be missing when it comes to Prop II?
In my mind the greatest feature of the Prop Tool is it's lack of features.
You got it exactly right. Prop Tool is simple, fast, and small. Installation is a breeze. All the relevant manuals and data sheets are a click away. I love the use of colors. The editing functions are simple but adequate. It has what I want for hobby use - and nothing else.
BTW, the original PIC "tool" in DOS (for the 16C54) was similarly loved. Guess I like "lean" over "full-featured." That's kind of how I code, too.
...have you by any chance seen the bus blaster from dangerous prototypes?
Hadn't heard of the bus blaster. More than anything, it reminds me of the JTAG portion of each of the LPCXpresso boards. LPCXpresso, btw, is a great way to break into ARM. Still, I'm convinced that a far simpler approach could be developed for a specific chip. Unfortunately(?) the chips keep getting better and better.
Re. Serial bootloaders: I've used them many times...every time I brick an ARM, in fact. But there is no comparison between a serial boot loader and something like the SX-Key.
The Rowley Crossworks costs $300.00 which puts it out of the range of hobbyists. Their Compiler/IDE OTOH is very slick and doesn't suffer from the bloat that Eclipse causes. It's worth paying $150 for a personal copy. Heck just DL a copy for free and see if it fits your reqs.
Some ARM boards don't need a JTAG debugger/Programmer for programming like the LPC1343 boards from Olimex and Embedded Artists. The boards are low cost as well.
The Astrobe Oberon compiler looks good(just bought it, waiting for some 1343 boards to come in). But I'm a hobbyist nowadays and always liked Pascal and it's derivatives.
Heck just DL a copy for free and see if it fits your reqs.
For sure! Only the board is a month away. So, in my own case, I think I'll wait and begin the 30-day free trial when the board arrives. In the meantime I've already got Keil loaded, as well as CooCox - if downloading to this particular board works in that environment, as jmg astutely pointed out.
Am I to understand that there are no open source unencumbered tools that work with this TI board? We're forced to buy commercial tools or live with restricted functionality in a "demo" version? If these tools are based on GCC doesn't there *have* to be a free version available?
Dave,
Good question. If they supply you the GCC binaries then they have to supply buildable source code if you ask. Now if someone would do that then we could all have a copy
But could it be the loader tools where the restrictions are placed rather than the compiler?
Dave,
Good question. If they supply you the GCC binaries then they have to supply buildable source code if you ask. Now if someone would do that then we could all have a copy
But could it be the loader tools where the restrictions are placed rather than the compiler?
Yeah, I guess that's a possiblity. If they use a proprietary loader protocol then I guess there won't be any way around the restriction unless someone cracks the protocol.
Dave,
Good question. If they supply you the GCC binaries then they have to supply buildable source code if you ask. Now if someone would do that then we could all have a copy
But could it be the loader tools where the restrictions are placed rather than the compiler?
I had another thought about this. Even if the loader protocol is proprietary, what's to prevent someone from using the size-restricted compiler to create a bootloader like the Arduino has that can then be used to load programs of arbitrary size built with the open source GCC toolchain?
Of course we don't know the loader code is proprietary. At least I don't...and I can't think of any reason TI would want to protect something like that. They mostly sell chips, and they want the whole world to use theirs.
Edit: But maybe that's a dumb comment. Parallax wants to sell chips, but Chip went to some effort to obfuscate the Prop boot code. And to this day, the Prop Tool source code is proprietary. So maybe you're on the right track, Dave. Where's hippy when you need him?
User Name,
Yes, but Parallax wised up. Now the loader the Spin interpreter is all published. They have gone to great lengths to provide open source tools such as propgcc and the new Spin compiler written in C. Then there is SimpleIDE to tie it all together if you want. All power to Parallax in that department.
The old Prop Tool is a dead end because they cannot open source it due to the fact that it uses some commercial editor widget or other. Besides its Spin compiler is written in x86 assembler so it's no use as a cross platform tool.
A while back I got burned when I bought an STM32 ARM system. Great little board in a nice little box with a little screen, very cute. Includes some sensors and I/O etc etc. All for only 60 Euros. I was a very happy purchaser. Until that is, I discovered I had to use the Ride Tool set (Raisonance Compiler and IDE) to do anything with it.
Re. Serial bootloaders: I've used them many times...every time I brick an ARM, in fact.
There is a (mini?) trend to loaders in ROM, NXP do some on their newest devices and this topic's TI part mentions a ROM loader.
That may actually be some factory-set-flash, but so long as users cannot clobber the loader, you treat it as ROM.
- and of course Prop 1 and Prop 2 have ROM loaders..
Am I to understand that there are no open source unencumbered tools that work with this TI board? We're forced to buy commercial tools or live with restricted functionality in a "demo" version? If these tools are based on GCC doesn't there *have* to be a free version available?
It is not that clear what Code Composer Studio includes, but it does have a Debugger, and an implicit compiler.
There will not be a code size limited version (MCU Core) for Stellaris. You can use the Stellaris development kits with the free bundle license. With the free license you are restricted to using the development board that comes with the Stellaris development kits, there will be no code size limit.
Which is a little cryptic, but as it seems the LM4F120 LaunchPad includes an external Stellaris ICDI, you can use this to debug any Stellaris target ?
There will not be a code size limited version (MCU Core) for Stellaris. You can use the Stellaris development kits with the free bundle license. With the free license you are restricted to using the development board that comes with the Stellaris development kits, there will be no code size limit.
Which is a little cryptic, but as it seems the LM4F120 LaunchPad includes an external Stellaris ICDI, you can use this to debug any Stellaris target ?
Maybe this is a good reason for me to stick with the Propeller. There is no issue of what C compiler to use. There are two options and they're both free and open source. Besides, it's more fun to play with an 8 core chip than a puny single core one! :-)
There is a (mini?) trend to loaders in ROM, NXP do some on their newest devices and this topic's TI part mentions a ROM loader.
That may actually be some factory-set-flash, but so long as users cannot clobber the loader, you treat it as ROM.
In the LM4F120H5QR ROM User's Guide, they had this interesting paragraph:
The LM Flash Programmer GUI can be used to download an application via the boot loader over the UART or USB interface on a PC. The LM Flash Programmer utility is available for download from www.ti.com/stellaris.
Think I'll look into this and related matter more thoroughly.
Also: I second the "use both" notion. I fully intend to do just that. When I have a P2 in hand, the union of the two chips may be less interesting to me. Right now, the ADC capability alone of the Stellaris is just too good of a complement to the P1 to pass up.
Right now, the ADC capability alone of the Stellaris is just too good of a complement to the P1 to pass up.
For me, the 32/64 bit timers appeal, but the data is vague on control details.
I want to be able to Edge Count and Capture, and have atomic control of capture of TWO timers.
How difficult will it be to get a linux running on this board?
Why would you want to ?
It is a Microcontroller, with limited Code/ram, so use a RaspPi to run Linux, and this sort of device for IO expansion, and the coal-face work ...
i dont think your gonna get any kind of linux running on these arm micros, if u really need that youll have to step up to a beagle bone or pi. Although if memmory serves olimex makes a an arm uController board running linux.
if you just want stuff like memmory and file system mamagment, interupt handler i think the coo os i mentioned fits the bill. its open source too i belive theres a link on the coocox home page. its yet to be seen how much if any of coocox will be compatible with this board though.
im a linux fan myself but i just dont get everyones facisnation with making a huge pc os run on a micro with limited memmory. I think writing a posix kernel from scratch that handel interupts, forking, and files/pipes is an awesome idea for some tasks but i dont see the linux kernel itself being a viable option on anything with less than 8mb of fast ram.. and thats probably kernel 1.4 or something
i dont think your gonna get any kind of linux running on these arm micros, if u really need that youll have to step up to a beagle bone or pi. Although if memmory serves olimex makes a an arm uController board running linux.
if you just want stuff like memmory and file system mamagment, interupt handler i think the coo os i mentioned fits the bill. its open source too i belive theres a link on the coocox home page. its yet to be seen how much if any of coocox will be compatible with this board though.
im a linux fan myself but i just dont get everyones facisnation with making a huge pc os run on a micro with limited memmory. I think writing a posix kernel from scratch that handel interupts, forking, and files/pipes is an awesome idea for some tasks but i dont see the linux kernel itself being a viable option on anything with less than 8mb of fast ram.. and thats probably kernel 1.4 or something
I keep confusing myself with these ARM cores. The RPi is an ARM, right? This ARM Cortex-M4 is the same ARM, right? No? Damn. I just wanted a remote command line, and no desktop. Oh well, 5 bucks, who cares? It's all for science.
Comments
Please no Pascal:)
Strangely enough one of our products is a huge Pascal program for an embedded system. It has been a royal pain moving it around from platform to platform.
Anyway it does not solve my poor boy problem. I can build Pascal programs for pretty much any ARM with Free Pascal. But then how to get the code into the damn chip for no more than 20 dollars and without any proprietary non cross platform tools?
I'm curious as to what features of the Prop Tool you might be missing when it comes to Prop II?
In my mind the greatest feature of the Prop Tool is it's lack of features. That is it's really easy for a beginner to start with.
Anyway perhaps you should let Jazzed know your desires whilst he is simplifying SimpleIDE for Spin programmers.
I think you have an excellent idea re: the "SX Key-like thingy for a specific ARM chip or ARM family". That's what I have been fishing for for ages now. No special IDE required ,just a hardware download dongle (like the Prop Plug) and a suitable program to drive it. All nicely documented and as you say stick to one popular, useful, cheap ARM chip or family.
Not sure, I think they may get help from Nuvoton & ST
The LM4F120 may not quite cost less, but it is an internal cost, and it seems to have larger buffers than any std speed FTDI,
so I expect TI may also be chasing performance with this move.
- plus they could potentially get Timing/Counter support in the debug, as well as a UART channel, (and even CAN ?) all for free. - just need the SW effort to add it.
I see the Schematic does tag a VCOM connection, as well as what look like an external ICDI and an internal pin-option JTAG.
- so quite a few extra features, { even if they missed Ti
Perhaps, I'm behind the times. Having given up with that awful STM32 kit. ARMs always seemed to need JTAG hardware and special download software.
Just to really upset me the STM32 kit uses that RIDE IDE which limits the size of you programs unless you buy the full version (which I don't need or want) despite the fact that it is using the open source GCC compiler which presumably does not care how big my programs are.
Then the STM32 is fixed so that it cannot be used with the opensource JTAG software and so on and so on.
The business model of Raisonance and others seems to be, let's take a free compiler, strangle any chance of actually being able to use it to get code into a chip and then ask for money to un-strangle it.
There is a reason they have sold nearly in half million Raspberry Pi ARM boards in half a year.
They need JTAG to debug, but ISTR seeing the LM4F120 has a ROM Uart loader.
I've not had any problems with the free tools provided with the various low-cost kits, including those from ST, come to that.
You guys keep talking about a generic propplug/sx key type deal for different arm ucontrollers/cpus.. have you by any chance seen the bus blaster from dangerous prototypes? i use there bus porate and i know it has very slow jtag support for any devices that open ocd supports. the bus blaster is a more specialized device used for jtag with a bunch of fpga and arm parts. maybe it will work with this board if not maybe it will work with your st board heater
You got it exactly right. Prop Tool is simple, fast, and small. Installation is a breeze. All the relevant manuals and data sheets are a click away. I love the use of colors. The editing functions are simple but adequate. It has what I want for hobby use - and nothing else.
BTW, the original PIC "tool" in DOS (for the 16C54) was similarly loved. Guess I like "lean" over "full-featured." That's kind of how I code, too.
Hadn't heard of the bus blaster. More than anything, it reminds me of the JTAG portion of each of the LPCXpresso boards. LPCXpresso, btw, is a great way to break into ARM. Still, I'm convinced that a far simpler approach could be developed for a specific chip. Unfortunately(?) the chips keep getting better and better.
Re. Serial bootloaders: I've used them many times...every time I brick an ARM, in fact. But there is no comparison between a serial boot loader and something like the SX-Key.
Some ARM boards don't need a JTAG debugger/Programmer for programming like the LPC1343 boards from Olimex and Embedded Artists. The boards are low cost as well.
The Astrobe Oberon compiler looks good(just bought it, waiting for some 1343 boards to come in). But I'm a hobbyist nowadays and always liked Pascal and it's derivatives.
For sure! Only the board is a month away. So, in my own case, I think I'll wait and begin the 30-day free trial when the board arrives. In the meantime I've already got Keil loaded, as well as CooCox - if downloading to this particular board works in that environment, as jmg astutely pointed out.
Good question. If they supply you the GCC binaries then they have to supply buildable source code if you ask. Now if someone would do that then we could all have a copy
But could it be the loader tools where the restrictions are placed rather than the compiler?
Edit: But maybe that's a dumb comment. Parallax wants to sell chips, but Chip went to some effort to obfuscate the Prop boot code. And to this day, the Prop Tool source code is proprietary. So maybe you're on the right track, Dave. Where's hippy when you need him?
Yes, but Parallax wised up. Now the loader the Spin interpreter is all published. They have gone to great lengths to provide open source tools such as propgcc and the new Spin compiler written in C. Then there is SimpleIDE to tie it all together if you want. All power to Parallax in that department.
The old Prop Tool is a dead end because they cannot open source it due to the fact that it uses some commercial editor widget or other. Besides its Spin compiler is written in x86 assembler so it's no use as a cross platform tool.
They actually cost $1500 for a full license, an educational license costs $300, and a personal license is $150.
There is a (mini?) trend to loaders in ROM, NXP do some on their newest devices and this topic's TI part mentions a ROM loader.
That may actually be some factory-set-flash, but so long as users cannot clobber the loader, you treat it as ROM.
- and of course Prop 1 and Prop 2 have ROM loaders..
It is not that clear what Code Composer Studio includes, but it does have a Debugger, and an implicit compiler.
TI have moved more to giving away CCS, at least for eval boards, and this page
http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/Stellaris_support_in_CCS
There will not be a code size limited version (MCU Core) for Stellaris. You can use the Stellaris development kits with the free bundle license. With the free license you are restricted to using the development board that comes with the Stellaris development kits, there will be no code size limit.
Which is a little cryptic, but as it seems the LM4F120 LaunchPad includes an external Stellaris ICDI, you can use this to debug any Stellaris target ?
use both ! - Use the LM4F as a USB/CAN/UART/ADC/Timer peripheral for the Prop, in any mix you like
In the LM4F120H5QR ROM User's Guide, they had this interesting paragraph:
Think I'll look into this and related matter more thoroughly.
Also: I second the "use both" notion. I fully intend to do just that. When I have a P2 in hand, the union of the two chips may be less interesting to me. Right now, the ADC capability alone of the Stellaris is just too good of a complement to the P1 to pass up.
For me, the 32/64 bit timers appeal, but the data is vague on control details.
I want to be able to Edge Count and Capture, and have atomic control of capture of TWO timers.
Why would you want to ?
It is a Microcontroller, with limited Code/ram, so use a RaspPi to run Linux, and this sort of device for IO expansion, and the coal-face work ...
i dont think your gonna get any kind of linux running on these arm micros, if u really need that youll have to step up to a beagle bone or pi. Although if memmory serves olimex makes a an arm uController board running linux.
if you just want stuff like memmory and file system mamagment, interupt handler i think the coo os i mentioned fits the bill. its open source too i belive theres a link on the coocox home page. its yet to be seen how much if any of coocox will be compatible with this board though.
im a linux fan myself but i just dont get everyones facisnation with making a huge pc os run on a micro with limited memmory. I think writing a posix kernel from scratch that handel interupts, forking, and files/pipes is an awesome idea for some tasks but i dont see the linux kernel itself being a viable option on anything with less than 8mb of fast ram.. and thats probably kernel 1.4 or something
I keep confusing myself with these ARM cores. The RPi is an ARM, right? This ARM Cortex-M4 is the same ARM, right? No? Damn. I just wanted a remote command line, and no desktop. Oh well, 5 bucks, who cares? It's all for science.