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The Right to Repair? — Parallax Forums

The Right to Repair?

ercoerco Posts: 20,260
edited 2012-09-01 22:45 in General Discussion
Do you have the right to repair equipment that you own? Seems like a silly argument to me. What's next, the great "right to hack" debate?

http://www.designnews.com/author.asp?section_id=1386&doc_id=248499

Comments

  • skylightskylight Posts: 1,915
    edited 2012-08-29 14:09
    I see one of the arguments is that substandard knockoffs would be made, as long as they are not sold on if they infringe road regulations then no harm, this in itself would stop the production of them.

    I believe no matter what it is, once bought and owned by you, you should have the right to alter, hack, repair it as it's your property
    If I then tried to sell it as an improvement I may have to pay for a licence to sell the original parts of the item.

    What about those independant motor companies that soup up vehicles and then sell on?
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2012-08-29 14:27
    Unless it's a condition of the original sale (and spelled out by a signed contract), you have the right to repair or modify equipment that you own. The original manufacturer may disavow any responsibility for damages or injury to others or property if you do this and they have a right to do that since they have no control over the repairs or modifications done. That's why there are authorized repair facilities and replacement parts.
  • xanaduxanadu Posts: 3,347
    edited 2012-08-29 14:28
    According to San Diego Bureau of Electronic Appliance Repair, you'll need to pay yearly dues to repair anything. I got into a nice conversation with them and they told me that I wasn't even allowed to repair my own equipment without registering. Silly b'cratz...
  • skylightskylight Posts: 1,915
    edited 2012-08-29 14:45
    Agree with Mike except I don't see how the sale could have conditions applied.

    It would be impossible to police for one and the simplest way to stop the majority from dabbling would be the ceasing of the warranty which I accept.

    In the case of hacking there are boundaries with copyright infringements but as long as you were the only user then what harm is there to the manufacturer considering people usually hack to get around paying exhorbitant prices for software for instance.
    It's a bit like not using the original Manufacturers ink product in their printers but instead using cheaper alternatives

    The only issue here is a moral one, do you have enough repect not to diddle the originator.

    A lot of people disregard that as they think manufacturers take advantage by their pricing.
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2012-08-29 15:00
    xanadu wrote: »
    According to San Diego Bureau of Electronic Appliance Repair, you'll need to pay yearly dues to repair anything. I got into a nice conversation with them and they told me that I wasn't even allowed to repair my own equipment without registering. Silly b'cratz...

    Could you send a link to that document?

    That just not seem right, that you can't work on equipment you own outright.
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2012-08-29 15:32
    Following the various Google links, it looks like the law applies to a business license. It doesn't apply to an individual doing repairs or modifications to items that the individual owns or even if a friend or relative owns, only to someone doing repairs or modifications to items belonging to others for some kind of remuneration, whether that be money or goods or barter or otherwise holding him or herself out as being in the repair or modification business.
  • xanaduxanadu Posts: 3,347
    edited 2012-08-29 15:34
    Publison wrote: »
    Could you send a link to that document?

    That just not seem right, that you can't work on equipment you own outright.

    I cannot, I was told this over the phone by a seemingly very irritated man. The documents specifically state commercial repairs to the public, nothing about your own stuff. In the long run I ended up having to register because they prank called me on the phone asking if I 'service' computer equipment to which I answered 'yes'. The guy that works there assumes that repairs are the issue, not who the gear belongs to, very misinformed.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2012-08-29 15:58
    Publison wrote: »
    Could you send a link to that document?

    That just not seem right, that you can't work on equipment you own outright.

    That's not really the gist of it. That particular California state entity is about licensing the inspection and repair of certain types of appliances, like furnaces, that require certification for safe use (also applies to fire-related safety for products like insulation and bedding; it's to prevent unscrupulous resellers from selling you substandard products that pose a risk to you and your family).

    You can always repair your own furnace, but it won't be compliant until it is inspected by someone who's licensed. Therefore, your fire insurance may not be technically valid until you get it recertified. The inspectors and repair shops pay annual dues for the repair and inspection license.

    Just because a home owner makes his or her own repairs doesn't mean they're to code. Certain kinds of repairs may actually be illegal, just as using shoddy non-code electrical wiring in your home is illegal. Sure, it's your home and your wiring, and they do let you make repairs or improvements, but before the power goes back on you have to get it okayed by someone in a suit, who (hopefully) knows the code far more than the average home owner.

    The posted link is about something very different. They're talking about things like an auto repair job requiring a part not related to the safety (air bags) or emission control (smog check) of the car, both of which require certification. Replacing a general part on a car should always be allowed to be made by anyone.
  • Clock LoopClock Loop Posts: 2,069
    edited 2012-08-29 16:18
    If its mine, or I have access to it, its good as hacked. (or fixed)

    LIVE FREE NOW.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfP4GQ9NUgo
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2012-08-29 17:05
    That's not really the gist of it. That particular California state entity is about licensing the inspection and repair of certain types of appliances, like furnaces, that require certification for safe use (also applies to fire-related safety for products like insulation and bedding; it's to prevent unscrupulous resellers from selling you substandard products that pose a risk to you and your family).

    You can always repair your own furnace, but it won't be compliant until it is inspected by someone who's licensed. Therefore, your fire insurance may not be technically valid until you get it recertified. The inspectors and repair shops pay annual dues for the repair and inspection license.

    Just because a home owner makes his or her own repairs doesn't mean they're to code. Certain kinds of repairs may actually be illegal, just as using shoddy non-code electrical wiring in your home is illegal. Sure, it's your home and your wiring, and they do let you make repairs or improvements, but before the power goes back on you have to get it okayed by someone in a suit, who (hopefully) knows the code far more than the average home owner.

    The posted link is about something very different. They're talking about things like an auto repair job requiring a part not related to the safety (air bags) or emission control (smog check) of the car, both of which require certification. Replacing a general part on a car should always be allowed to be made by anyone.

    Gordon,

    I completely agree with you about repairs of furnaces and such that have a big safety factor. I would never do the repair myself, even though I know how to do them. That's why I pay a yearly maintenance fee :)

    Computers, toasters, TV's, and non-safety automobile repairs are a different story.

    Just finished replacing my Mom's stoplight, (brake) switch on her '93 Buick. Should I look out for the safety police? :)
  • JLockeJLocke Posts: 354
    edited 2012-08-29 18:55
    I believe one of the mottos over at "Make" magazine is... "If You Can't Open It, You Don't Own It". I tend to agree.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2012-08-29 23:26
    Seagate really destroyed any goodwill they had with me when I purchased a USB hard disk for backup purposes only to find after powering up the device that the hard disk was NOT being sold to me, only licensed AND I had to use it within a MS environment.

    None of this was indicated on the outside of the original package AND no attempt was made to explain this prior to purchase. SO I reformatted the whole hard disk and feel that they can come and get me whenever they want to claim a breech of contract.

    I just wanted a USB harddisk that would back up my dual boot Linux and Windows systems. What I got was a greedy MS gotcha that cluttered the disk with support software that was useless to me.

    On another front, Asus produced the EEEpc's with a Warrenty Void sticker on the opening for upgrading DRAM. They had to back down as the customers wanted to DIY the Dram upgrade because Asus did not have service centers that could provide this.

    Somewhere and somehow, the legal department and the marketing department of many a large corporation have gotten the idea that they are the overlords of technology and that the buyer is NOT buying a useful tool, but paying for the privilege of using the company's knowledge. This is all hubris.

    I really don't want a computer that forces me to use any particular OS and disallows being able to maintain the product myself.

    IMHO, California is rather corrupt with all its regulatory commissions and is demonstrating some of the worst of 'big government' abuses in the USA. More rural states, like Oregon, seem to be a lot easier for someone to live as a DIYer. It is a predatory matrix.

    And I have done my own automotive brakes without a California certification for several decades - thus saving huge amounts of cash over taking the auto to a certified brake mechanic. There was a time when the PGE would verify safety of gas devices for free and the DMV would pass judgement of vehicle road safety. But the truth is that I feel much safer if I personally know what the hazard is and how to make my environment and equipment safe. There is way too much exploitation of ignorant fears in this modern world.

    Insurance companies have grown from something like 2% of GDP in the 1960s to something like 8% of the US GDP today - and yet they still rely on making a profit by not paying out a claim unless that see a way for it to enhance profitability. The industry is a safety net, but one full of legal loopholes that the little guy can't possibly close. If you have a perfect driving record and All-State insurance and someone else hits you -- All-State cancels you anyway. It is a one-shot claim service.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2012-08-29 23:51
    I find it a bit odd how recycling of materials has managed to remove replacement parts from the marketplace. The day of the small repairman is near and end along with a lot of other occupations that were those of 'craftspeople'.

    In the beginning, products may have been made more reliable as a justification for high-technology, but after all the repair persons are gone, there is no reason to not harvest additional profits by making items that fail prematurely.
  • HollyMinkowskiHollyMinkowski Posts: 1,398
    edited 2012-08-31 16:59
    I guess it would be prohibited to buy a bunch of those cheap
    Linux based Linksys routers and do cool mods on them and then re-sell.
    I thought about doing that a few years ago....just as well I didn't I suppose.
  • xanaduxanadu Posts: 3,347
    edited 2012-08-31 19:30
    The purpose of SD BEAR is that if a consumer has an issue with a service company that company is registered and can be found and held accountable. They don't care if you're repairing anything to code.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2012-09-01 07:36
    Frankly this is rather sad.

    To me...
    The right to repair is just a natural extension of the right to own something and to dispose of as you desire. Voiding warranties is a right of passage into the real world from the nanny state (of 'don't touch or you will be punished'.)

    It also seems to me that the "right to repair" is also closely related with the "right to learn" and the "right to create". There are just bullies in the schoolyard that think they can run the world their way and exploit others.

    If I buy a router and am willing to accept the potential financial loss of overwriting the firmware, what is really to stop me/ I did so with my ASUS router and am very happy with the results. And it was far more about learning and creativity than repair. So far, the only repair I've had to do is to replace the power supplly as the wallwart dies in a lightning strike (seems they sacrafice themselves so that routers may live another day.)
  • NWCCTVNWCCTV Posts: 3,629
    edited 2012-09-01 17:29
    I just want to chime in on the "Warranty Void If Removed" subject. I have been building and repairing computers for over 15 years now. When I first started my business I did not use the stickers. However, after a few years I found that it was pretty much a must. It is usually the customer that "Thinks" they know what they are doing that makes me the most money. On more than one occasion I have had to replace motherboards, CPU's, memory and hard drives at my expense because I did not put a sticker on the case. I have seen it all, including motherboards being fried because someone decided to upgrade their memory and putting it in backwards. Pins bent on hard drives because they do not see the notch for alignment, CPU's forced in to place, etc, etc. I totally agree that if you buy something you own it and have the right to work on it, but when it comes to warranties, there is a reason behind the stickers.
  • Peter KG6LSEPeter KG6LSE Posts: 1,383
    edited 2012-09-01 22:05
    my motto is .. Once you pop the hood . you are on your own . Fair enough ?


    I dont ask any company to support cracking cases . but to prevent it is a issue that make me very unhappy .

    Mind Iam not including Software in this ..
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2012-09-01 22:45
    Simply 'a warranty' is a contract. That means that both buyer and seller have accepted the terms. Once the sticker is broken, the terms are null and void. It should be that simple. And this is generally a good approach.

    But the marketplace is full of thieves.

    In any business, one has to protect themselves from people that pretend to be customers and that prey on goodwill. At one time I built homes for people. And like all general contractors, the day finally came when one customer decided not to pay for the house in order to see if he could get the house more cheaply via litigation. In my case, I had studied real estate law and knew how to properly file the proper paperwork - so for about $12USD in filing fees, I ended that nonsense and got paid. But others contractors might have decided they couldn't afford an attorney and just gone belly up. In that case, the other party could file papers to take ownership of the house without the cost of my labor.

    But in some contexts, the warranty is a deception that is being used to prevent people from actually seeking repair alternatives or diverting them to more expensive solutions.

    For example, I had a student here in Taiwan that was a medical doctor, a very intelligent man. But in spite of his intelligence, he came to me with a request that I buy a particular brand of fax paper when I visited the USA as he was concerned that his fax machine would become damaged and out of warranty if he used any other.
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