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Too Late for Me... — Parallax Forums

Too Late for Me...

Mike HuseltonMike Huselton Posts: 746
edited 2012-08-10 22:13 in Propeller 1
I've given up waiting for the Propeller 2. I am posting development boards, Zigbee modules, expansion boards, etc. for sale on amazon and ebay. I am retaining just the minimum required for experimentation.

My decision was based on the Tegra 8 core CPU plus 12 core GPU chip announcement. I can't wait forever while the world moves on...

Comments

  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2012-08-06 20:08
    I've given up waiting for the Prop II, too. But then, I never really was "waiting" for it -- just ready to welcome it when it finally arrives, and content to explore the possibilities and to push the limits of the Prop I in the meantime.

    -Phil
  • Mike HuseltonMike Huselton Posts: 746
    edited 2012-08-06 20:12
    Your reason is best. I will check back in from time to time.
  • pedwardpedward Posts: 1,642
    edited 2012-08-06 20:12
    2 completely different beasts...
  • jmgjmg Posts: 15,183
    edited 2012-08-06 21:15
    Mike Huselton wrote: »
    I've given up waiting for the Propeller 2. I am posting development boards, Zigbee modules, expansion boards, etc. for sale on amazon and ebay. I am retaining just the minimum required for experimentation.

    My decision was based on the Tegra 8 core CPU plus 12 core GPU chip announcement. I can't wait forever while the world moves on...

    Wow, now that is a LONG way from a Prop 2 - not even a microcontroller and seems to be equally unavailable...

    The sort of device that will pressure the Prop 2, is not a BGA Processor that needs DDR3 memory to even cough.

    To find the alternate devices, you need to look at similar package, single chip choices.

    Something like the Nuvoton W55FL95DDN, which is LQFP-128 package. This is stacked die, 32Mx16b DDR2

    http://www.nuvoton.com/NuvotonMOSS/Community/ProductInfo.aspx?tp_GUID=2ee21723-144c-4bed-97ce-a483646a1b9c
  • TubularTubular Posts: 4,706
    edited 2012-08-06 22:31
    Mike didn't you already give up waiting a while back?

    I think it's still well worth the wait. And looks like it will have encryption which is fantastic, was expecting to wait even longer for that...
  • pedwardpedward Posts: 1,642
    edited 2012-08-06 23:22
    Yeah, the authentication/encryption is going to open up a whole new world of applications.
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2012-08-07 00:43
    The P2 will never be a Tegra CPU/GPU. Nothing similar here.

    The good old P1 has plenty of punch left even tho I am disappointed at the P2 delay. But ATM I don't have any killer designs that would help P2 sales much - at least today anyway - that could change tomorrow, or next year. If it does, then I will see where the P2 is at, and the alternatives.

    At one stage I stopped designing P1 boards, and in hindsight I realised that was a mistake. I have pumped out a number of boards since but a lack of time has meant they don't have the required software to go with them yet. Too many projects and not enough time so probably best I didnt have a P2 to play with ;)

    So Mike, it really depends on what you want to do. There are lots of ARM boards out there, asides from the R-Pi. I think the MK802 has a lot of promise, is faster, more memory, wifi and in a dongle case - much better value at ~$65 for the 1GB 1.5GHz version (or ~$55 for the 512MB 1GHz version) than a Pi at ~$35-40 (yes they mark them up here). The MK802 just hasn't the following yet. Anyway, I havent purchased either because I dont have enough time to learn android or *nix.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2012-08-07 02:55
    Mike Huselton,

    To mangle metaphors a bit, it seem to me that if you want the high speed, heavy lifting capabilities of a Jumbo Jet and have been patiently waiting for a Tesla Roadster then you have been waiting in the rain at the wrong bus stop:)

    Prop and Tegra are such different devices targeting vastly different end uses. Each can do things the other cannot. More likely they can be used together profitably. So I would not abandon one for the other but try to get to grips with both.

    That is sort of my current obsession with Prop I and Raspberry Pi ARM board. "Propeller Pi".
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2012-08-07 08:29
    It's a long time. For me, I've gotten somewhat frustrated at times, thinking it won't get done, or a window is missed, or any number of other things one can worry about.

    Then I ended up with time issues, not actually being able to really do some things I wanted. So I've got built in delays that happen to align nicely with the work to get P2 out there! Funny how things work.

    Honestly, I'm really pleased we got P1, because it got me back into this stuff. Now that I am there, P1 is kind of "home" as in where I like to be, but there are lots of great devices out there. If I really had something to get done, I would just do it and keep moving on.

    When it's done, anybody who has boot-strapped themselves into Propeller land can pick up where P1 left off, and begin to employ P2 at that time. Heater has it about right, IMHO.
  • rod1963rod1963 Posts: 752
    edited 2012-08-07 11:01
    Mike,

    The whole notion of the world moving on is nonsense when it comes to micros. Take the 805x family, it's still alive kicking after all these years, the same with the Z-80 and even 68K.

    So what if the Prop isn't the latest shiny thing. And for the Tegra, these are cutting edge and very complex media processors not a embedded controller and are targeted to industry not hobbyists.
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2012-08-07 11:11
    rod1963 wrote: »
    So what if the Prop isn't the latest shiny thing. And for the Tegra, these are cutting edge and very complex media processors not a embedded controller and are targeted to industry not hobbyists.
    Unfortunately, the fact that the Propeller is percieved as being targeted to hobbyists is one of its problems. There aren't enough hobbyists out there to sustain a semiconductor company. We need to help Parallax shift that impression by showing how the Propeller can be useful in commercial applications.
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2012-08-07 11:18
    David Betz wrote: »
    Unfortunately, the fact that the Propeller is percieved as being targeted to hobbyists is one of its problems. There aren't enough hobbyists out there to sustain a semiconductor company. We need to help Parallax shift that impression by showing how the Propeller can be useful in commercial applications.

    +1

    And that is exactly why www.Parallaxsemiconductor.com was set up.

    (Just wish the last posting wasn't 195 days ago).

    New info please?
  • rod1963rod1963 Posts: 752
    edited 2012-08-07 11:55
    David Betz wrote: »
    Unfortunately, the fact that the Propeller is percieved as being targeted to hobbyists is one of its problems. There aren't enough hobbyists out there to sustain a semiconductor company. We need to help Parallax shift that impression by showing how the Propeller can be useful in commercial applications.

    Dave

    It's Parallax's responsibility's not ours. They released the Prop without a C compiler, debugger, and macro assembler. Right off the bat they didn't help their image among professionals.

    I suspect with the PII they will correct most of the mistakes that occurred with the P1. Hopefully, they'll have GCC, GDB, and IDE ready to roll when the chip is released and multiple platform support as well(Linux, Windows). I also hope they'll have White papers and various application PDF's to help commercial developers get started and make the case for using the PII as well. Hand holding(customer service) doesn't hurt, it helps.

    The App PDFs could be created by the early Beta testers and reviewed and approved by Parallax staff. Have papers on using the macro assembler, debugger, creating virtual hardware, etc. Hardware and software apps that showcase the PII's main features, etc.
  • David BetzDavid Betz Posts: 14,516
    edited 2012-08-07 11:58
    rod1963 wrote: »
    It's Parallax's responsibility's not ours.
    Of course you're right. I just meant that we might want to avoid always talking about the Propeller in hobbyist terms. I suppose that's difficult though since most of us *are* hobbyists. :-)
  • msrobotsmsrobots Posts: 3,709
    edited 2012-08-07 20:02
    @potatohead
    P1 is kind of "home" as in where I like to be

    well spoken, me too.

    Enjoy!

    Mike
  • RickInTexasRickInTexas Posts: 124
    edited 2012-08-07 20:58
    To mangle metaphors a bit, it seem to me that if you want the high speed, heavy lifting capabilities of a Jumbo Jet and have been patiently waiting for a Tesla Roadster then you have been waiting in the rain at the wrong bus stop:)

    :tongue: Well put!
    That is sort of my current obsession with Prop I and Raspberry Pi ARM board. "Propeller Pi".

    Agreed. Great synergistic and cost-effective combo. I'm waiting on supplies of the PI to loosen up, refuse to pay 2-3x retail on eBay.
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2012-08-07 21:08
    RickInTexas wrote: »
    Agreed. Great synergistic and cost-effective combo. I'm waiting on supplies of the PI to loosen up, refuse to pay 2-3x retail on eBay.

    Get in the queue now. Next batch appears to arrive at Newark on August 15th.
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2012-08-07 21:58
    It was not a mistake to release P1 without those things. It took quite some time to even figure out how to do them well, and even now there is considerable variance in best approach. The GCC team has done an awesome job porting, and Ross is taking another great path with Catalina.

    We have the benefit of a lot of development lessons learned now that will help with P2. Those were not present at P1 release, and would have taken a long time and potentially been marginal without that pool of understanding in place.
  • User NameUser Name Posts: 1,451
    edited 2012-08-07 22:17
    I'm strictly monogamous when it comes to marital relations, but hopelessly profligate when it comes to microprocessors. I have a difficult time following the OP's either/or mentality. Can't one own and use several different chips? Meanwhile, how much money is there in used development boards, Zigbee modules, and expansion boards? Aren't Zigbee modules and expansion boards ecumenical, anyway?

    Also, why would one sit on his hands waiting for the P2? I'm certainly grateful Peter Jakacki hasn't been. Same with the Prop gcc developers, Dr_Acula, and 100 others.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2012-08-07 22:36
    It was not a mistake to release the Propeller I without C. All current practical C compilers for the Prop, ImageCraft, Catalina and GCC, use the LMM technique.
    The LMM technique was unknown until after PI launch and Bill Henning invented it.
    Prior to that a C compiler for the Prop was thought impractical and not worth the effort. I for one felt that building a C compiler just to genertate 496 LONGs of code to run in COGs was a waste of time and the code for any reasonable functionality would not fit there anyway.
    Then if you wanted C code in HUB it would have to compile to Spin byte codes but they are not good for C and the performance would be as snail like as Spin so old C hands would be disappointed and mock the result.

    Bill's discovery of LMM changed the Propeller landscape dramatically.
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,400
    edited 2012-08-07 22:41
    Heater. wrote: »
    Bill's discovery of LMM changed the Propeller landscape dramatically.

    Thanks Bill, wherever you are!
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2012-08-08 01:54
    AFAIK, Bill's LMM sat idle for a couple of years before it was put to good use. I built an overlay loader - tarting up a quick load routine that I think was originally based upon Bill's LMM and extended by Phil?.

    There are still lots of things to be discovered with prop1.

    As soon as we can get to Chip (or someone else), I would like more details of the counters including the video generators. I still bet there are ways we can use these that haven't been thought of !!!

    I think because we only have one variant of the P1 (well apart from my proposed DIP28-DIP36 versions), the relatively small community (compared to the other micros) has been able to participate collectively to exploit the prop in various ways that may never have been found had Parallax produced families of the P1.

    Perhaps (hindsight is wonderful) the biggest mistake was not releasing the source to PropTool years ago, warts and all. Just think what Brad or Michael, or others, would have done if this was available... conditional assembly/spin, macros, includes, etc, etc, as well as an improved/embedded PST, and even an improved IDE. I am sure someone would have put in a switch to use braces instead of indentation, and allowed this to be changed on the fly too - not that would want that personally, but it is a gripe for a number of users. I bet other languages would have flourished much better than they have too. Ah well, not long to wait now.
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,313
    edited 2012-08-08 06:32
    Mike Huselton wrote: »
    I've given up waiting for the Propeller 2. I can't wait forever while the world moves on...

    Good for you! THAT will show them! Good luck with the new stuff, keep us posted on successes and challenges.

    And let me be the first to say welcome back for when the P-II arrives!
  • Bill HenningBill Henning Posts: 6,445
    edited 2012-08-09 06:34
    Heater:

    Thank you.

    Ken:

    Thank you... I am still here in Langley, BC, I have just been too busy with consulting and family to be on the forum in the last year or so.

    Can't wait to start working on Prop2 LMM :-) .... I will have more time in about a week (another project is ending).

    Cluso99:

    Totally agreed, the more info about P2 the better.

    p.s.

    Thanks to Sapieha for pointing this and the new P2 thread out to me yesterday.
  • potatoheadpotatohead Posts: 10,261
    edited 2012-08-09 07:54
    Looking forward to your return Bill. LMM was brilliant! I still remember that, "OH MAN!" moment reading that first thread... :)
  • Nick McClickNick McClick Posts: 1,003
    edited 2012-08-10 22:13
    The reason why I hate waiting is because I know the chip is going to be that good. It's addresses the commercial shortcomings of the Prop 1, still gives me hard real-time execution, high speed, a ton of I/O, and multi-core.

    Patience is a virtue...
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