Parts from China - Quality?
prof_braino
Posts: 4,313
Parts from China - Quality?
We noticed parts from China via eBay have improved in quality. Previously, buying parts from China from eBay was a risk, maybe more like a Smile shoot. Nowadays the parts from China seems to be exactly the same as parts we get from sources here in the states. It looks like the eBay sellers get hold of lots or seconds, and sell them for whatever they can get for them. The prices range from as high as retail to below wholesale. Last few purchases, (cheap stepper + driver chip, Blue tooth HC05 & HC06) the absolute cheapest option was selected. On arrival the parts we tested by putting them through their paces, all functions operated as expected.
Has anybody noticed this same trend?
Has anybody noticed evidence to the contrary?
Poll:
Parts from China Quality Trend
Quality has always been just fine
Quality was poor, is as good as local sources
Quality is still risky
Never bought anything directly from China
We noticed parts from China via eBay have improved in quality. Previously, buying parts from China from eBay was a risk, maybe more like a Smile shoot. Nowadays the parts from China seems to be exactly the same as parts we get from sources here in the states. It looks like the eBay sellers get hold of lots or seconds, and sell them for whatever they can get for them. The prices range from as high as retail to below wholesale. Last few purchases, (cheap stepper + driver chip, Blue tooth HC05 & HC06) the absolute cheapest option was selected. On arrival the parts we tested by putting them through their paces, all functions operated as expected.
Has anybody noticed this same trend?
Has anybody noticed evidence to the contrary?
Poll:
Parts from China Quality Trend
Quality has always been just fine
Quality was poor, is as good as local sources
Quality is still risky
Never bought anything directly from China
Comments
In the hi-fi audio market, there are lots of questionable parts that are supposedly rare. Fraud abounds.
In the digital market, much of what is available is yesterday's technology that comes from overstocking. Problems only arise when you expect to buy leading edge items at bargain basement prices. The parts may be genuine and just off-loaded due to no longer being needed; or an predator could be trying to exploit high demand.
Since buying over the web does have feedback about the vendor relations, matters have gotten better. But it is always buyer beware. And you can often just get exactly what you want through Mouser, Digikey, or RS Solutions.
I did NOT answer the poll as it is very awkward and biased. I bought printed circuit boards from China that were excellent quality and excellent service at bargain prices. And I buy many components over the counter in Taiwan. I've also had web purchases without problems from vendors that other have claimed are selling fakes.
I have no way of saying the quality has always been good or that it is getting better. Every nation has its own criminal culture and they create problems for their own country. People in China tend to be sold poorer quality devices and products than we buy that are manufacturer in China - because western countries have very good quality control and procurement procedures. This is not about change over time. It is about being vigilant with whom you do business with.
I also find China parts are tolerable.
I've notice several times when I've purchased 10 or more of an item, there will frequently be one of two bad units. I haven't bothered to complain about the faulty units.
The bad units occurred when I've ordered multiple nRF24L01+ modules and I also had a coupled of bad units when I purchased some of the $4 ultrasound sensors erco pointed out.
I probably would have placed theae orders even if I had known ahead of time I'd have a %10 to %20 fail rate of the devices.
The ICs and MOSfet devices I buy over the counter in Kaohsiung are roughly handled and never protected from static electricity. Fortunately, the high humidity of local climate is very forgiving. While I am sure that the major factories in Taiwan and Mainland China take all the state of the art precautions, when you buy one or two - none of that is done.
In many cases, the people working in these shops have no idea that precautions may be required and there is no real means to test the devices at the time of sale. Many don't even know what they are selling. For instance, I recently wanted a low power comparator - a TL331. The counter person wanted to sell me an LM331 as the same thing (a voltage to frequency device). The thought that LM just meant a different source of the same device. Then I asked for the LMV339 - the quad version of the low power comparator; and again they offered the LM339, which is NOT the low power version. Of course all parts were in plastic trays in bulk. And when you purchase a few, they package them in a polyethlene bag that is heat sealed with the price attached. Nothing anti-static.
Remember before the Sony Walkman (in the 1980's) the term "Made in Japan" was synonymous with low quality, cheap pot metal, often broken on arrival; at least in the context of consumer goods. The Walkman was the first exception, it actually worked and was better than any other option in the world for a person music player. It was not until the Japanese auto industry adopted the methods of Juran through the instruction of Deming that the public perception of Japanese quality for consumer goods went from "Smile" to "superior".
The evidence seems to indicate a similar change in the products from China, 30 years later. The first Chinese "electronics supplier" we dealt with turned out to be in the living room of the family house, and they employed the neighbors, random poor farmers. The boards came back with smeared traces, wrong size holes, incorrect alignment. Obviously at least some of them had no concept of contamination or accuracy, or electronics. When the chemicals got too dirty to function, they dumped them in vegetable garden in the front yard (yes, vegetables they intended to eat). None of the product in the first couple batches was usable.
This is totally about change over time. Whatever used to happen is happening different now, and seems to have reached the point where we can get reliable parts if we are careful.
@loopy - sorry the poll was awkward, I tried not to be biased. Since China is also local for you, I guess you are the exception.
Sony actually made its fortune and got started with the transistor AM radio that cost about $15 in the 1960s.
China is a different development path. Opium destroyed China in the late 1800s and early 1900s. People were and still are in many ways isolated from western know-how until after WWII and into the 1970s. But they have been leap-frogged into modernity by government programs. Many of the advanced technologies are still on a very fast-track learning curve. But there is a constant struggle between businessmen that want to get rich very fast and having durable quality. For example, there have been recent crashes and failures on China's high speed rail and roll backs in the operating speed until people understand the technology and can adequately manage safety.
Also, I am a bit uncertain with what you mean by "parts from China". Taiwan has the foundry that produces most of the silicon chips for the world, and they may move on to be packaged in Mainland China or elsewhere - like Mexico, Singapore, Malysia, etc. But the vast majority never enter Chinese sales channels that a hobbyist or small quantity buyer can order from. For instance, I believe that Parallax's Propeller is made in Taiwan and completed in Mainland China - but China would have to import chips from Parallax to sell back to you.
China and Taiwan both still have a long way to go when compared with the average person's knowledge and access to electronics - so what I see as a 'parts market' in Kaohsiung is quite limited. Language and culture are very big barriers. And economics are a barrier as well. People that study electronics for a career often have no outside hobby interest in it, unlike westerners.
Information is still very limited. I have been teaching a 10 year old the WAM kit and recently spent several days in and around bookstores looking for a good Chinese introduction to electronics for kids as the WAM kit doesn't really present Ohms Law, what electrons are, how a battery works, and so on. Forrest Mims has an excellent one in English, but it was very difficult to find anything appropriate below the university student level. I did locate some things that will work, but nothing specific for kids.
So to move on, I turned to Wikipedia in Chinese to get some info on DC electric motors (no problem) and H-bridges (none exists). A Google search for Chinese introductions to H-Bridges provided manufacturers of H-bridges and very difficult to read university papers on H-bridges - but nothing for youth.
The one item of interest I did turn up in local bookstores was an Arduino book - but I have to go back to the bookstore to take a good look at what's inside. I certainly do not what to use an Arduino book to teach about a BasicStamp. The technical university bookstore is still selling books on how to program 8051s as an introduction to micro-controller, and some PICs.
The average American or European can buy a lot more leading edge parts and devices locally. What is sold in Taiwan is rather outdated and used primarily limited for education - not so much for hobby. And it is only getting more so as DIP packages are disappearing.
But there is hope that this may all being changing as Parallax has been having success with the Propeller and the Arduino seems to have taken hold as well. Also, Parallax has a Taiwan distributor that promotes both the BasicStamp and the Propeller (and the Arduino).
Sauder, Bush and O'Sullivan RTA Furniture use to be 100% American made. Now the company that use to be in Kent, WA that made the zinc and plastic fittings has moved zinc production to Mexico due to NO EPA regulation. The plastics portion of the company moved to Indiana for cheaper labor!!!!
To add to the complexity, I am not sure if parts originating in Taiwan are considered Made in Taiwan or Made in China. The PRC has worked very hard to claim that these things are made in China.
EBay is really a secondary market place and while sellers may be located in China and getting rid of excess inventories of components, they may be buying excess inventories from around the world. So manufacture origin is also very unclear.
I think the main thing is that when electronics has an economic down period, better components become available to hobbyist as big companies want to move on to newer items. And of course, the USA market is greatly appreciated because they can find people that will buy and use such items because more average people are knowledgeable and willing to find a way to exploit these items.
I read somewhere that 75% of all the clothing that Americans were is made in China. And there was a big spat in the new about Ralph Lauren contributing the USA's Olympic team uniforms that are all made in China. These days the real question is more about 'what isn't'. When you have a labor pool of over a billion people that are willing to work for less, there are very few countries that can compete on a cost basis.
Still, the idea that Japan made lousy stuff was more a reaction to WWII than reality, they had very larger transfers of technology from Germany prior to WWII. This is called cultural egocentricity. These days, China has pretty much caught up with the world and is expanding its own space program as it dislikes the fact that western powers have a dominant role in GPS and satellites. One can only hope and pray that this is all not going to end up in another arms race as technological advantages are always suspected of providing military superiority.
Regarding furniture, Taiwan seems to have been overtaken by Ikea.
Regarding plastic, I live in Kaohsiung, Taiwan and it makes about one-third of the world's plastic. I was a bit shocked to find out that in the past few years Taiwan has been buying about one-third of Iran's oil production. It seems that not being officially recognized by other countries and not being a member of the UN has its advantages. And I suppose that 'on the books', it is reported that China, not Taiwan was the buyer.
There are tons of stuff that don't make it into the American news. I tend to read the British news to be better informed as CNN is always touting a liberal cause and Fox News is always trying to make the liberals look bad. Between the two extremes, not much of what is happening in the world is presented.
And MSNBC is ALWAYS bashing conservatives and FOX News!!!!
Al Jarrez English is pretty good for real reporting. But I can only get it one the internet.
Forgive me for hijacking the thread. It is supposed to be about Chinese parts on Ebay.
Factories there have super high turnover also.
This is due to them being overworked and under paid. I watched a program on Current that went through some of the factories. Some of them work so hard and are so stressed out that they actually commit suicide because of it. If I had my choice I would not buy anything from China until their Human Rights laws changed. Unfortunately, the state of our economy and the "need" factor keeps this from happening. I do buy "Made In USA" whenever possible but that is getting harder and harder to do. I own "Made In America" (Amd Canada, And Mexico) vejicles but it seems that more and more of the parts that go on the them are from China, Malaysia or somewhere else in Asia. I understand about Global economics but I can remember the days when the phrase was "Cheap. Made In Japan" and radios, tv's and stereos were still made here.
This is true. I'll just tell you what we spend to get good quality production from our Chinese facility - how about $500K/year or twice that? It takes a staff of six, several business licenses, building rentals, accountants, and a huge investment in engineers to do it correctly. If you don't have your own people on the ground who understand what you expect (don't count on them reading our piles of specs) or if you don't want to travel there 6x a year and build real relationships you can forget using China for high-quality, low-risk, consistent quality production. It's not easy.
There's a big difference between ordering a bag of capacitors on eBay and doing production in China. It might be getting easier to do both of these things but it's still doesn't make the parts readily useful for American production. At least Digi-Key and Mouser guarantee consistency. It's hard to order the same thing twice from China, especially if you go to the Shenzhen component market.
What's really different from five years ago in my view is how well they're accessing the USA market. Any American distributor of such items will quickly find themselves in a commodity business if they plan on competing with Chinese sources.
I think most of our customers are willing to pay for American-made quality. We're doing everything we can to provide the highest quality products from Parallax. You'll notice at the PropBOE has a Limited Lifetime Warranty [and it was a full, no-questions asked Lifetime Warranty until my plan got filtered through our legal staff...bahhhhhh]. You're responsible for user damage, but in my original warranty I was even covering customer misuse.
As an aside, I suppose one could ponder the exact meaning of the word "lifetime" when it's applied to warranties and other contractual obligations. For example, I purchased a "lifetime" membership in the local wine shop's discount club. But the running joke between me and the shop's proprietor (who's about my age) is, "Just whose lifetime are we referring to here?"
-Phil
-Tor
This is how Fluke's "Lifetime Warranty" for their multi-meters works. The actual warranty period is 7 years after they stop making the product (or at least 10 years from date of purchase), and doesn't cover expendables or customer misuse and other such things.
Link to the "Warranties" page at Fluke.com
I can see how a manufacturer would pitch the warranty in this angle. My thoughts are that it should apply to the owner's lifetime, and it's not transferable. Parallax products are an investment in one's self in that they enable us to learn new skills and develop other inventions from them, and I see that effort tied closely to the owner's existence.
A warranty for the lifetime of a product isn't really a warranty at all. Once you break it, it's lifetime is over and therefore it is no longer under a warranty.
I don't want to hijack the thread with our interests, so I apologize to the original poster.
But to the point of the original poster - it might not be that component quality from China is improving or it isn't (I'm not sure), but those distributors from Shenzhen who are reaching us from eBay are existing well in our system: deliver a good product, you get a good rating, and the cycle is self-perpetuating. This loop makes the winners win and the mediocre suppliers remain mediocre.
Warranties don't really amount to much if the return shipping is more than the cost of the item.
A warranty is only as good as the company that provides it. I had a lot of Sears-Roebuck automotive tools with a lifetime warranty and was quite happy with them. I think I had only one item actually break, a 9/16th socket.
But I had an acquaintance that would shop garage sales for Craftmen tools, break them and return them for credit at the local Sears. Some how that seemed all wrong to me.
Good companies have satisfied customer policies that may seem too generous and abused, but they know that their reputation for satisfaction is more important than fighting for every nickel and dime. People in general are fair and want others to be fair.
ill 3rd it .. Mine needs new casters ..... and I am 188 Lbs . sheesh .
The whole Chinese export economy originally relied on silk, tea, and porcelain. They controlled the silk by withholding the worms from export, tea was similarly held back, and the porcelain was always beautiful - but broke.
I've been looking for ages for a nice office chair for under $1000USD with no luck. So I use an aluminum outdoor chair and I am about 200 lbs -- no problem. Why do you need casters?
This is important. The more we buy, the higher the INTERNAL stress. Eventually they will be self driven to reform regulations and codes, just as in US Europe, and others years ago.
This is the most important bit of data in the thread so far. Let see if I got this right:
The general quality of Chinese production may or may not have changed, and generally still appears stink overall, but certain DISTRIBUTORS from a particular city have gotten a handle on what we as customers expect, and have taken steps to provide this, and the seller rating on eBay is a usable index of which do and which don't. If this is correct, maybe it gives a specific and reliable method of estimating likelihood of success.
Its almost time to conduct the "buying like erco" experiment.
While I may dislike the One Child Policy, the restricted travel, the dubious police and legal system, and so on; all these issues are still evolving. These are over one billion (more like 1.2 billion people) that have moved ahead from barely surviving under the control of regional warlords after the collapse of the Ching dynastic, to a nation that is still modernizing at a very rapid rate.
Where I live in Taiwan is relatively modern. But in 1960, a friend visited Kaohsiung and it was a sleepy city with rice fields and ox carts. Now it is Mercedes-Benz and Lexus with several major industries - plastics, steel, and shipping.
The reality is people outside of Europe and North America work harder. The first three years that I was here, I worked 7 days a week. Not full 8 hour days, but I worked every day. It didn't kill me. In fact, it allowed me to pay off quite a bit of credit card debt. For most of us, the world is much easier to cope with when we have a steady job - even if we hate it.
If could be worse, what if all the 1.2 billion people decided to come to the US and look for work?
People in the US commit suicide over work, and more recently over the lack of it. And we certainly have wackos in the US that do terrible things as well. India and Africa are worse off that China in many ways. S.E. Asia has a lot of countries that have equally dire problems.
No, they struggle more. Pushing a again a wall they doesn't move uses energy, but is not doing work. People in US and North American are used to working smart, and try to avoid Smile jobs. Hence the "first world" description.
No, I must disagree here too. The world is much easier when we have MONEY, which is why I work as a contractor for the past several years. Even though it can be many months between gigs, when I do work I make enough for the "forced vacations" in between. I'm too old to work at a job I hate due to people that don't understand what they want.
I disagree again. All the folks that COULD come over here DO. H1 visas, brain drain, multicultural cities, etc. The folks that hate the US are generally the ones that can't get jobs here.
But is not so common that there is specific word in common usage that means "suicide due to overwork" as in Japan. Is there such a word in China? Now I'm off topic too.
Look, I realize you live there and its great and all, but we're discussing a strategy for buying stuff from China, and perhaps the commerce will make life better for everyone. You don't have to defend China, just tell us about if and why "distributors from Shenzhen" is the key. Are there any other identifiers that might be used to indicate something we might want to buy?