Choosing a non prop Micro MSP vs PIC vs AVR?

rwgast_logicdesign

Ok I love the propeller.. its is awesome for prototyping stuff its capable of doing most anything and makes an all around kick-*** micro when you need some power. I am originally a software guy hoping to maybe get into the kit business. Do to my background and beginner status with electronics, I find it easier to whack another micro into a project to solve a solution sometimes rather than using logic IC's or some descrete solution. Perfect example hooking 8 buttons to one pin, why not throw a 50 cent micro at the problem, or using a cheap micros ADC instead of a 3 dollar chip that isnt as good.

So I think I want to go the pic route, becuase i would really like to use dsPics, and it seems like pic has chips that can do anything you can think of. I have an msp430 launchpad and a few extra micros for it but I havent touched it at all, mostly Ive been busy with the prop and I saw a video on GG that made me wonder if the msp was the right choice.. I know theres also AVR but I dont know much about them at all besides the the arduino boot loader runs on there chips (which im not very intrested in). Basically I want some programmable chips with self contained rom I can throw into projects based on other better technologys like propellers or xmos even. I like the idea of pic becuase it seems like it is easy to find a chip to do anything for cheap, msp seems nice when you need something simple but without the variety of pic plus GG said getting them up and running is a pita..

Im coming into a little extra money this week, and I would like to use some of it to finally get my prop board board where I want it, as far as decoupling design and add ons (still need pss2 and db9 connectors lol) go, then I want to put some away to pay for a run of 10 kit boards once the cad work is layed, and finally get some badly needed discreets and maybe get started with another micro.

The pic stuff is confusing me badly though, I know I need a pickit3 if I want to use dsPic, but Im not sure how that programs a chip... I thought of just printing the pcb out for this and building it http://www.instructables.com/id/All-pic-programmer/ but im not sure that does dspic, plus id like something nicer. From what I can tell you just write your code then flash it to the pic or msp/avr and its done with you can then hook that chip up in your circuit no need for eeprom or anything. Well I dont understand where the pic plugs in on the pickit3... And when it comes to msp, ya I have a launchpad but I know that can only do value line chips... theres a 25 dollar programmer for the ti's on sparkfun but im not sure if it does all msp430s or just some.. and I know jtag and msp have something to do with one another.. as far as avr havent even looked.

So basically what would you guys recomend to someone looking into wanting a micro to complement the propeller or use for projects the prop is just to powerfull and exspensive and also that has the capability to move to more specialized perferial type chips.. and what gear should I start with?

Duane Degn

There are several people on the forum (jazzed and Cluso99 come to mind) who have used inexpensive AVR chips with Prop projects.

Cluso99 figured out have to use the Prop to program an ATtiny84.

I learned to program some of the AVR chips so I could change the firmware of SparkFun's Nordic FOB. I purchased an AVR Dragon (based on a suggestion from Leon) just a week or two before Clusso99 figured out how to use a Prop to program an ATtiny84.

I'm glad I purchased the AVR Dragon because it makes a lot easier to program a AVR than the Prop method (though I haven't tried the Prop method yet).

I have a PicKit2 but I've never tried programming any Pics with it (yet).

In my very limited experience, the AVRs aren't too hard to program, but I've only tried modifying programs others have written, I haven't tried to use interrupts or the EEPROM. The have "fuse bits" which I have no idea what they do or are for.

I'm always glad to get back to the Prop after working with an AVR chip for a while.

Maybe Leon will chime in. He has lots of experience with all sorts of microcontrollers.

(BTW, Post #6 of my index has some AVR links.)

Mike Green

They all work and they all have problems ...what else is new? The PICs have historically been around for a long time. Because there are millions of different combinations of features, each one a different part ... it's kind of a complicated catalog. Pick some particular part or two at most and stick with it. It'll be less confusing. Read up on the datasheet and any errata. Make sure you remember the workarounds. The AVRs have also been around for a while. Parallax has some experience with them in that they use them in the BS2pe MoBo as peripheral processors. I've started playing with the TI MSP430s, mostly because they're cheap and they have a cleaner instruction set with its 16 bit architecture and addressing modes. I haven't done enough with them to tell how messy the peripheral processors might be. Also, the use of the ultralow power modes is complex requiring careful use of interrupts.

rwgast_logicdesign

@Mike, well the msp was my first choice I just watched a video blog over at gadget ganster and he seemed to think it was overly complicated to just get up and running with. Im leaning twords PIC becuase I feel the dsPic (recommended to me by leon) is a perfect fit for some projects. Im not sure if msp has a DSP chip. The other thing about pic is most DIY test tools online are based on PIC. And i have a PIC book book. Im just seriously confused on the hardware to get up and running that will support dsPic. I no nothing about PIC other than they have some good offerings. Originally I went with MSP430G becuase its cheap small fits alot of my non specialized needs and i like C.

I totally agree one only needs so many micros, one is hard enough to master . This is why I havent bothered even installing TIs software for the msp. I want to settle on something that makes sense and I will be happy with later down the line. I think in the long run of things AVR chips and attinys are exactly the kind of chips im looking for small cheap and use C correct? Id hate to waste money on PIC just for the dsPIC and hate it, Correct me if Im wrong but Im thinking PIC has USB perifrial chips along with BT Ethernet stacks all sorts of really versatile stuff that may come in mighty handy..

@duane I could be totally wrong, but I think fuse bits are to protect your code, i.e when the fuses are blown you can no longer extract the code from the chips.

pik33

Fuse bits in AVRs are reprogrammable and they controls its configuration. For example clock source select or ISP programming disabling. When bad programmed... you will need high voltage parallel programmer to change them

Leon

The Microchip dsPICs and PIC24s have a very nice architecture, and are quite easy to use with extensive free software libraries. DSP isn't available on any of the MSP430 family. Most PICs are available in DIP, which makes prototyping easy.

The PICkit 3 is all you need for debugging and programming any Microchip device. I prefer the ICD 3, but it costs a lot more.

jmg

rwgast_logicdesign wrote: »

Originally I went with MSP430G becuase its cheap small fits alot of my non specialized needs and i like C.

I think in the long run of things AVR chips and attinys are exactly the kind of chips im looking for small cheap and use C correct?

My preference is for Small Micro's to have Wide Vcc, and Good ADCs - so they can be used as versatile peripherals.
Smallest Wide Vcc Micro I've found with a 12b ADC, is the 10 pin Z51F0410

MSP430 has a very low entry point, but very few parts have 5V IO.

Microchip has a VERY wide range of chips, and some low cost ways to try more than one family.

I did notice the ATXMEGA16A4U has dropped in price, to now be under the Mega USB option, not sure if that is some long term signal, or ?
Only minus is the XMega's do not come small, and are only 3.3V parts, but if you want to add USB and ADC to a project, they look a good fit.

Wide Vcc parts do seem to be expanding, eg the new Renesas RX210/RX220 have Operating voltage 1.62 V to 5.5 V

http://www.renesas.com/products/mpumcu/rx/rx200/rx220/index.jsp

Cost to have a play seems to be ~$25 for the Promo Board YRPBRX210

LoopyByteloose

The truth is that the only way to know anything is to explore. Many, if not all of us, have tried devices other than what Parallax sells. It is not a deadly sin or a betrayal. But it is rather awkward to seek answers here for products that Parallax doesn't sell. After all, they are the host of this forum.

Regarding PICs...... You might consider a bit of history. Parallax's first BasicStamps used a PIC and then went to Senix/Ubicom for chips that were similar - but faster. Senix/Ubicom attempted to market theirs on the concept of Virtual Peripherals; while Microchip introduced lots of chips that had peripherals in silicon.

It is NO secret that you can use the concept of Virtual Peripherals to program many of the Microchip products and not rely on a different chip for a different solution. You might read up on it. Parallax bought the Senix/Ubicom chip and still maintains the documents in the SX chip download section. It is a very minor project to translate the SX chip assembly to PIC assembly.

But if you want to endlessly shop for the best value without a real project in mind, I suspect that you will merely defer learning anything. Buy something and learn to fully exploit it.

Try www.SXlist.com and www.PIClist.com for further information

Erik Friesen

The beauty of parallax products is their plug and play use. They are probably the easiest to get up and running of any. Also, the folks in the forums don't hammer you for asking basic questions.

Microchip products aren't that hard once you get understanding of how they do things, but until then... AVR has the reputation of being easier, but it seems folks can't stay away from microchip for some reason. I myself have mc devtools, so its easy to stay there.

The new pic32mx2xx series are pretty powerful, and you can do usb host in a dip chip.

John A. Zoidberg

Sorry to say that, but all are good to start with.

Just pick one. Any will do.

For me, I've exposed a lot to PIC microcontrollers since many of us in my place are using it. I'll try to go for the AVR too... my AVR Dragon is collecting dust here...

Dr_Acula

I've pondered a hybrid Picaxe/Propeller solution at times. The Picaxe is super simple for some things - eg analog I/O is one line of code and one pin, and if you want to convert to a serial format to send to a propeller that will be another line of code. And ok, a third line of code to complete the loop.

A picaxe programmer is much cheaper than the $25 you were quoting. It is two resistors and a DB9 socket. The software is all free.

Raw machine code pics make my eyes glaze over. And I'm the sort of crazy guy who dreams of hybridizing the Picaxe, the Propeller, and a couple of Z80s...