Leon seems to like to interject his experiences and opinions particularly when they're different from what's being discussed and his experience tells him that they may be better. He serves as somewhat of a "gadfly" (in the best sense). As such, he can be annoying at times, but he means well and is never disrespectful (in my experience). He can be very patient and helpful with newcomers as well. He sometimes comes to all sorts of threads and sometimes says the same darn thing, so I don't think this is personal.
I would like to see more "why"s in some of Leon's interjections. I think it would be more useful to the reader to hear that a PIC or AVR might be cheaper or physically smaller or use less power than say a Propeller in the application being discussed rather than just that the reader should consider it instead.
I can't speak definitively for Parallax, but my belief is that they're not that interested in "content" per se. They're always appreciative of things that seem to be helpful to their customers and other forum participants. Answering questions from forum members, helping participants through misunderstandings and rough spots in their path to understanding microcontrollers, robots, etc., all these are appreciated. Lectures, unless solicited by "management" are not that useful. On the other hand, it's very useful to share experiences and knowledge. By all means, share what knowledge and experience you have, but understand that others have knowledge and experience too and it may be different from yours. Discussions about these differences are very helpful. They tend to help identify the detailed circumstances where one opinion might be preferable to another and vice versa.
It's a typical prototype RF board intended for use by advanced radio amateurs. It'll demodulate CW/SSB from 1.8 MHz up to 430 MHz, outputting low-level audio.
Let's see one of your less sloppy and more professional boards.
What was sloppy and unprofessional about the way that it was made, then? Was there something wrong with the etching or the drilling? Or wasn't the laminate cut properly?
I am interested in PCB Etchant and Developer heaters, I, and many other lurkers, are interested in your results.
We watch from the sidelines, not bothering to interupt a perfectionest at work.. But know that we are indeed watching...
Sorry that I can not Cheer you on at every posting, As that is all I could really do, and I don't think that would be very helpfull.
But just in case you don't know, We do appreciate the work and research you are doing. Go! Bruce Go!..
I was in a hurry, and put my circuit board in cold etchant, and of course it took forever,
plus it had undercutting at some of the thinner traces, So it is obvious that heating the etchant works better.
But, What temperature is optimum? Also, What is the best way for a home brewer to heat said etchant?
But, What temperature is optimum? Also, What is the best way for a home brewer to heat said etchant?
I read someplace (does not mean it is true) that the optimum temperature for etchant was between 100 and 110 degrees fahrenheit. As for heating the etchant, I would imagine a laboratory hot plate would be the ticket, but who can afford one of those. The 1156 test results were looking pretty good, but I had to shut it down before completing the test. When I am finished with this rig, I know it will work well for me, and perhaps many others. Additionally, it will be an inexpensive solution for heating both the developer and the etchant.
I put the etchant container in an old washing up bowl with a couple of inches of just boiled water in it. Etching takes under five minutes with continuous agitation. I don't get any under-cutting.
Wouldn't Stainless be better anyway? It has a much lower heat transfer rate, so cycle time is worse, but heat distribution is more even, and varies less over time.
I was thinking more along the lines of a thin glass plate. The problem with the glass plate and 1156 lamp idea is that allows light in the darkroom. The bulb would have to be completely shielded to prevent light from escaping.
I was also reviewing what codeviper had to say in Post #12, however, instead of using metal tubing, use flexible pvc tubing. However, I am not sure how effective that would be, but it might be worth another experiment.
Considering the use of aluminum as a hot plate is prohibitve when heating sodium hydroxide, I have now switched my experiments to the use of a Sunbeam heating pad. I will keep you posted.
Yea, there are lots of ideas going through my head, but I am always trying to keep in mind that I want my solution to easily be accomplished by anyone that wants to make PCBs. If it works, the heating pad would be a good solution for everyone. Just go to the nearest Walgreens and buy a heating pad. It will be a slow process, but if it gets it upto the proper temperature range and keeps it there, then life would be good.
Okay, I have given up on the heating pad idea because it was taking way too long. And besides, who wants to buy a heating pad to make PCBs? Okay, so I have a new idea which I have not proven yet, but I would imagine that it should work and work rather quickly.
Let's assume that you have a predetermined tray size of H - height, W - width, and L- length. And let's further assume that during the development and etching process, you want a 1/4" - 1/2" depth of liquid for both the etchant and developer. And to take it one step further, let's also assume that you want at least an additional inch of tray space above the liquid to help prevent spills. At this point, you need a tray between 1-1/4" - 1-1/2" tall. How does this apply to the heating process you ask? Well add another inch of height to the tray and try this on for size.
Visit your local stone cutter and have him cut two pieces of 1" thick stone or marble to the width and length of your trays. Now go home and heat both pieces of stone up in the microwave or a standard oven to a temperature of 104 degrees fahrenheit, and then place one in the developer and the other in the etchant
It won't work with a microwave, and getting a temperature of 104 F in an oven isn't feasible.
I am not saying you are wrong, but why wouldn't it work. I just heated an empty glass in the microwave to approximately 104F, what would make a chunk of marble any different? And what about the oven?
As for the water idea, I have read that before in a photography site for heating the developer. I just don't like the idea of another chemical on the table top and the dish would end up floating.
It depends on the amount of moisture in the stone. Also, microwave ovens can be damaged by running them with an incorrect load like an empty glass.
Ovens are rather inaccurate, and the thermostats have a wide range.
A floating dish in a larger container of warm or hot water doesn't matter. It's how I etch my boards, and I sometimes put the developer container in warm water in cold weather. The container needs to be rocked continuously, anyway. Why not try it?
They usually use quartz heating elements, and heat by radiation. It will be difficult to measure the temperature of the liquid and then there is the problem of how to agitate the container. A container of hot water at the right temperature is much easier.
Comments
It looks very sloppy and unprofessional
I would like to see more "why"s in some of Leon's interjections. I think it would be more useful to the reader to hear that a PIC or AVR might be cheaper or physically smaller or use less power than say a Propeller in the application being discussed rather than just that the reader should consider it instead.
I can't speak definitively for Parallax, but my belief is that they're not that interested in "content" per se. They're always appreciative of things that seem to be helpful to their customers and other forum participants. Answering questions from forum members, helping participants through misunderstandings and rough spots in their path to understanding microcontrollers, robots, etc., all these are appreciated. Lectures, unless solicited by "management" are not that useful. On the other hand, it's very useful to share experiences and knowledge. By all means, share what knowledge and experience you have, but understand that others have knowledge and experience too and it may be different from yours. Discussions about these differences are very helpful. They tend to help identify the detailed circumstances where one opinion might be preferable to another and vice versa.
Let's see one of your less sloppy and more professional boards.
There is a formal challenge with the EVAL6208N board. We will see who puts out the better board.
Bruce
Content gets new customers to the door. Helpfullness keeps the customers at the door.
Bruce
I intend to continue my experiment.
Bruce
How would you have designed that board of mine? I can't think of a better way to do it.
I am not a designer, I am just a guy trying to perfect the PCB making process for DIY. I did not say that the circuit was designed incorrectly.
Bruce
I take it back. Well done.
Bruce
We watch from the sidelines, not bothering to interupt a perfectionest at work.. But know that we are indeed watching...
Sorry that I can not Cheer you on at every posting, As that is all I could really do, and I don't think that would be very helpfull.
But just in case you don't know, We do appreciate the work and research you are doing. Go! Bruce Go!..
Tommy
Thank you for your support. I most definitely appreciate it. I was feeling down, but you definitely cheered me up.
Bruce
I was in a hurry, and put my circuit board in cold etchant, and of course it took forever,
plus it had undercutting at some of the thinner traces, So it is obvious that heating the etchant works better.
But, What temperature is optimum? Also, What is the best way for a home brewer to heat said etchant?
Like I said, Go! Bruce Go!
Tommy
I read someplace (does not mean it is true) that the optimum temperature for etchant was between 100 and 110 degrees fahrenheit. As for heating the etchant, I would imagine a laboratory hot plate would be the ticket, but who can afford one of those. The 1156 test results were looking pretty good, but I had to shut it down before completing the test. When I am finished with this rig, I know it will work well for me, and perhaps many others. Additionally, it will be an inexpensive solution for heating both the developer and the etchant.
Bruce
Source: Wikipedia
I was thinking more along the lines of a thin glass plate. The problem with the glass plate and 1156 lamp idea is that allows light in the darkroom. The bulb would have to be completely shielded to prevent light from escaping.
Bruce
and glass conducts heat well.
Yea, there are lots of ideas going through my head, but I am always trying to keep in mind that I want my solution to easily be accomplished by anyone that wants to make PCBs. If it works, the heating pad would be a good solution for everyone. Just go to the nearest Walgreens and buy a heating pad.
Bruce
Let's assume that you have a predetermined tray size of H - height, W - width, and L- length. And let's further assume that during the development and etching process, you want a 1/4" - 1/2" depth of liquid for both the etchant and developer. And to take it one step further, let's also assume that you want at least an additional inch of tray space above the liquid to help prevent spills. At this point, you need a tray between 1-1/4" - 1-1/2" tall. How does this apply to the heating process you ask? Well add another inch of height to the tray and try this on for size.
Visit your local stone cutter and have him cut two pieces of 1" thick stone or marble to the width and length of your trays. Now go home and heat both pieces of stone up in the microwave or a standard oven to a temperature of 104 degrees fahrenheit, and then place one in the developer and the other in the etchant
Does this sound feasible?
Bruce
What's wrong with the technique I mentioned with a large container with some hot water of the right temperature in it?
I am not saying you are wrong, but why wouldn't it work. I just heated an empty glass in the microwave to approximately 104F, what would make a chunk of marble any different? And what about the oven?
As for the water idea, I have read that before in a photography site for heating the developer. I just don't like the idea of another chemical on the table top and the dish would end up floating.
Ovens are rather inaccurate, and the thermostats have a wide range.
A floating dish in a larger container of warm or hot water doesn't matter. It's how I etch my boards, and I sometimes put the developer container in warm water in cold weather. The container needs to be rocked continuously, anyway. Why not try it?