Adventures in manufacturing
xanadu
Posts: 3,347
--Orignally called 'IP Theft'. Nothing has been stolen from me at this point. It's Monday now and I just got my design work back from the Engineering company. They did outstanding work for me and I was able to pay them and make amends for the gross misunderstanding(s). We also executed an NDA right there, and the owner offered to take on more work if I need it. He also offered me an unbiased review of what machine shops in the area to work with, which makes some of my claims about them and the machine shop I was working with false as well.--
If anyone has any experience in this dept please comment.
A couple years ago I designed a couple projects based entirely around Parallax's microcontroller boards. My plan was to do a kickstarter video and release it very soon. My design is unique and nothing like it exists. I feel it will fill a demographic gap of people who normally do not play with micro-controllers and planned on open sourcing it.
I'm working with an engineering company and a machine shop. After two months the engineering company produced the drawings and sent them to the machine shop. I went to the machine shop to talk about them making it and was instantly greeted by the owner who accused me of trying to get a free prototype, and free design work because I questioned the price. I have months of emails proving otherwise, and I did nothing to deserve this. Another machinist came in the room and said that I was shady and that they didn't want to work with me. I was basically kicked out at that point and left entirely confused as to what happened.
I went to the engineering company to pay for the drawings they quoted me at $100, and the owner said they were doing that as a favor to the machine shop and that he can't give me the drawings. I mentioned that it was my intellectual property and he said "no it's not because we never signed an NDA". All I wanted to do was pay for the drawings and go on my way. I had sent them emails offering more money for a revision they did and they turned the money down.
Now I feel like I have no legal right to my intellectual property and that they can keep it and do as they please. I called a lawyer and they can't even listen to the case until 2 weeks from now. Unfortunatelly this is the only lawyer I can afford, because we work together.
Am I out of my design if they want to do something with it? Is there some legal way I can get them to sign an NDA after the fact?
I'm so upset right now my chest hurts. I've worked for the largest machine shop in San Diego for the past 6 years and get nothing but respect from them so I know I didn't do anything to these people to make them act like that. The only thing I can think of is I insulted them by asking why the prototype run couldn't be included in the large qty I was ordering price. Now they're obviously trying to make me very upset over nothing.
I have everything in writing in emails, in my favor, except the NDA. I have been developing this idea for over two years and also have proof of that.
If anyone has any experience in this dept please comment.
A couple years ago I designed a couple projects based entirely around Parallax's microcontroller boards. My plan was to do a kickstarter video and release it very soon. My design is unique and nothing like it exists. I feel it will fill a demographic gap of people who normally do not play with micro-controllers and planned on open sourcing it.
I'm working with an engineering company and a machine shop. After two months the engineering company produced the drawings and sent them to the machine shop. I went to the machine shop to talk about them making it and was instantly greeted by the owner who accused me of trying to get a free prototype, and free design work because I questioned the price. I have months of emails proving otherwise, and I did nothing to deserve this. Another machinist came in the room and said that I was shady and that they didn't want to work with me. I was basically kicked out at that point and left entirely confused as to what happened.
I went to the engineering company to pay for the drawings they quoted me at $100, and the owner said they were doing that as a favor to the machine shop and that he can't give me the drawings. I mentioned that it was my intellectual property and he said "no it's not because we never signed an NDA". All I wanted to do was pay for the drawings and go on my way. I had sent them emails offering more money for a revision they did and they turned the money down.
Now I feel like I have no legal right to my intellectual property and that they can keep it and do as they please. I called a lawyer and they can't even listen to the case until 2 weeks from now. Unfortunatelly this is the only lawyer I can afford, because we work together.
Am I out of my design if they want to do something with it? Is there some legal way I can get them to sign an NDA after the fact?
I'm so upset right now my chest hurts. I've worked for the largest machine shop in San Diego for the past 6 years and get nothing but respect from them so I know I didn't do anything to these people to make them act like that. The only thing I can think of is I insulted them by asking why the prototype run couldn't be included in the large qty I was ordering price. Now they're obviously trying to make me very upset over nothing.
I have everything in writing in emails, in my favor, except the NDA. I have been developing this idea for over two years and also have proof of that.
Comments
These days we don't really compete on ideas. We compete on support, good will, social networking, and other intangibles. Someone might copy your ideas down to the last resistor, but what matters is that you "own" the space by providing the best customer experience.
Obviously this isn't legal advise. In my opinion (and it's just my opinion) NDAs aren't all that useful anyway. Your energy and determination are.
-- Gordon
I have not paid. Basically I sent them a bunch of my own drawings that they kinda fixed up for me. I met the owner face to face today and tried to pay him. He said he doesn't have access to the drawings, nor do they have any way for me to pay them.
Originally the engineering firm said it was too small of a job to open an account under my name, so they would have the machine shop bill me $100 extra. The machine shop doesn't want to do business with me now. I spoke with Pat the owner of the engineering firm and he said they would give me the drawings Monday for the going rate of $60./hr for 8 hours, instead of the $100 if the machine shop had done the work. He said I can pay with a check. I don't know maybe he finally thought about what is going on. That really aggravated me, however they did do at least 8 hours of work and I offered them more money for the revision in writing via email. The real kicker is I can draft all this stuff up in draftsight myself, I just opted for them to do it because they know the machining process better, whereas I only know how to draw out what I want, not what is streamlined for production.
Maybe I'm overreacting to the whole thing, I literally walked into some extremely upset people and it took me hours to cool off from the way they treated me. I have the utmost respect for people I work with, and demand the same. I still have no clue as to why this happened and haven't gotten a response from the machine shop.
Here's a quote from an email I sent them -
No response for a month. Then...
Weeks later they produce a drawing with PEM nuts instead of tapped holes, and the measurements are all off. Creating the second revision.
Still no answer as to why they even took the job in the first place. I'm really sick of people taking jobs that they cannot do in a reasonable amount of time. I'd much rather be turned down than led around for months. When I take a job and don't follow through quickly my clients love it because they pay 25% of what it would normally cost. I just expect everyone to business like me, but now I'm starting to learn why they don't. I'm going to buy Pat a book on business ethics.
Thanks for listening, there's nowhere else I could even bring this to.
My entire life I've been full of ideas I couldn't manufacture because they were too complex and expensive. I finally realize that simple passive designs that serve a good purpose could be the way to go and come up with an affordable feasible design and what a ride, two years of sending the design out and I still have nothing.
I will say that Protocase Inc. worked with me the most, and they do good work. It was just too expensive in the long run. Their customer service was top notch though. They didn't get physically upset with me for not knowing exactly what I wanted off the bat like ____ manufacturing in San Marcos.
If I cannot get this fixed by the end of next week I'm just going to post the designs online, so standby. I hope everyone likes this, and I hope that it opens a window of new people to both electronics and micros. I am not posting this to prelude my project, nor gain any attention. I was just really mad.
And this has some questions and answers about patents http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/com/iip/online2004oct19.htm
Thanks Alman. I have applied for patents before. Case in point, my first invention ever, Grip Sonic the reactive steering wheel cover.
If you do not like Dubstep I highly advise turning volume down
Spent $14,000 on an 'Invent Help' package and 'Patent Pending', another $200 on Lambert and Lambert. Neither worked out. Asked a product designer at APC if interested in a new product and couldn't even get a meeting with them. It also does other things like keep you awake while driving by providing and interactive user environment. It's also battery operated and has a built in mic. There was also a wireless sensor to turn this into a tachometer display for the engine.
Try to imagine the steering wheel turning, vs the camera turning. I had it in my car for years. People would literally stare at intersections if they even caught a glimpse of the top.
Everyone wanted one, and I'm still trying to get it out there, after over 13 years. Either way someone could just make one slightly different and it wouldn't matter. It's not just a VU meter although it is based on completely analog circuits. That was before I started using micros haha.
If I were you, I would not post the stuff on line, etc. Take a deep breath and wait for everyone to figure out what's really going on. It's possible there's some sort of communication problems between all these different parties and the people you talked to were confused about what you were asking for and why you were asking for it. I seriously doubt they are trying to steal your designs and scoop your ideas. Most likely they are just fumbling around because it's near the holidays, people are off for Spring break, etc. and things get weird around times like that. So try to remain calm and recognize that the relationships between different firms can often be informal and, as a result, get somewhat confusing when people from the "outside" march in and get emotional. Obviously you're very passionate about this project but you must remember that most people are not out to grab your ideas and run off with them - most likely it's just bureaucratic bungling and miscommunications. So keep optimistic and be patient with the clods you talked to. Sooner or later they'll understand what you want and you'll be back on track.
Don't respond in this manner - it's a waste of your energy and will produce more negative feelings. Just focus on getting your product to market.
Excellent advice sir. At this point I'm okay with posting it online because I need to move on to my other projects. I was definitely emotional earlier and can see where you're coming from, and appreciate the support.
Thanks Ken. Your company and this forum motivated me in the first place to get this off the ground. I've spoken with sales about it and hope to touch base again shortly. The Spinneret and Proto boards will be going where no man has ever gone before (but not space sorry!).
If I were to write a review it would be in the utmost professional manner and not to battle a company that puts autopilot sensors in Cirrus aircraft. I would bend over backwards for that engineering company and the threaten me... I really looked up to these guys and they got under my skin and tossed me aside like an old newspaper. I'm back down to room temperature now and ready to hopefully get my drawings on Monday and forget this whole charade.
Thanks again everyone.
I also recommend you do make your drawings of what you want, and do so with whatever ability you have. You will get better. Verify all core requirements in those drawings too. That basic design check is worth it, even though it's not optimized for production. From there, you've got something to communicate with and build on. You may find somebody to produce for you, and have them be able to suggest a better manufactured product. Mark up your drawings, with them, or have them do it, then commit to production. The drawing is the contract, and if you are not clear on what is going to happen, the wrong things will happen.
When it's proven out, revise, wash, rinse, repeat.
Unless it's very simple, I personally would not have anything produced without a formal agreement. At a minimum, that's a drawing and or spec document BOM. When you get your production run, inspect it for compliance, and document any deviations and or changes required on new drawings, keeping the whole lot over time. That's a bit more laborious than strictly needed with good working relationships, but it is best practice and a very good way to work when you don't have those trusted, solid relationships to "fast track" with.
On all your drawings, place a small information block, name, number, etc... revision, date. Consider each one atomic. If it stands as is, it's done. If it gets marked up, resolve that to a new revision always. Communicate that in your information block, specify it on all work orders, purchase orders and communications in general. This pays off. I do it for a living, and often spend a lot of time sorting this stuff out with expensive software and training when it wasn't done right years ago. I've seen great products where the docs would scare the pants off of you, with most of the specs in a few people's heads. Don't go there.
Brush this off, learn, grow and know there are plenty of others to work with.
You just wrote quite a bit of my new SOP for contracting design work. Thanks for the advice. I'm beginning to feel like this all happened for a good reason and I'm certainly growing in this department. All very good points.
That school is a great school, when one pays attention and asks around.
One other thing I should add is clarity and self-consistency in your drawings is very important. The form of them, like how nice they look, lines straight, etc... isn't primary, but is desirable. The function of them is. Each dimension and note is a requirement. The sum of those is your intended product. You put your design intent into the drawing, or 3D model which can be used to make a drawing, and the clarity of that intent determines how successful you are at seeing the product you visualized or conceived to meet whatever design requirement you've established for it.
Insure that each feature of your product is dimensioned ONCE, and that it's freedom or variance is controlled in all directions. Consider a simple cut square piece of material. How many requirements does it have?
1. Horizontal dimension, and it's tolerance
2. Vertical dimension, and it's tolerance
3. Perpendicularity, or default angular tolerance of, say 1 degree or less, side surfaces.
4. Material specification, eg: Alum 5052
5. Thickness and acceptable tolerance variation, or parallel tolerance for primary front and back surfaces
6. Surface finish cosmetic side (maybe both are cosmetic)
7. Surface finish, other surfaces
8. Call out that the part is to be deburred (you won't cut fingers and neither will anyone else)
9. Acceptable corner radiii (there is always a radius, with the discussion to be how big of one)
I think that's a fairly complete specification. Some of that can be whittled down with standard tolerances that apply, leaving thickness, material, horizontal, vertical, call for squareness overall.
A drawing that communicates those things is a good drawing. It can quite literally be a hand sketch, with those things detailed clearly.
A nice looking drawing that omits those things is a poor drawing. The golden rule is this:
What you don't specify, they will, and they will do so in ways that favor their cost of manufacture to make better margin on your part quotation. This is not a bad thing. It just is reality.
Do you specify everything to the maximum best practice for a process? Maybe, but that's expensive. Better to specify what really matters to you, going default, or typical for things that don't, giving them the freedom to produce well for you, efficiently, and at a cost that makes everybody happy.
You will find it mentally busy to consider ALL your requirements while desiging and engineering. Consider the primary ones first, then when you think you are close, go for the others and ask yourself whether or not they matter, and what the "default" best practice is.
That's a lot to think on, but if you start thinking this way now, you will grow in ways you will find very useful and rewarding.
I can't see past the ethics. They had me set on a design that would later be deemed not useable because I didn't specify enough up front. I know that's my fault. They did talk me into a thin sheet metal with PEM nuts when I insisted on 5052-H32 because it can be drilled and tapped easily.
How bad would it be if you wanted to drill a custom hole and the edge of a PEM nut is in the way?
What kind of worthless design would that be?
I hated it to begin with but it also dropped the price considerably. They said you can't drill powder coat or anodizing and I told them a million times some will have no finish. And you CAN drill anything that chips if you put a rubber grommet in the hole to cover up the whole entire .1 micron chip in the finish... unless you use a dull drill bit hehe.
So I let them make me change my design to incorporate many many holes to make sure nobody would need to drill. Another exercise in futility I should have just dropped it right there and ran back to my previous manufacturer, but it costs less. Cost is a major factor. I need it to be something people will buy, and if they never end up doing anything with it, won't feel burned when it's collecting dust. Seriously, who on kickstarter is going to pay big bucks for a piece of sheet metal? Nobody.
I submitted some nice drawings to scale and with .001" tolerance. I guess I was just lucky in the past and for once I dealt with a 'no-nonsense' company that doesn't look after people that don't know what exactly they want. I thought I had the etiquette required for this type of thing. I was wrong. Another thing I was wrong about was that the other companies I have worked with said if I commit to a large quantity (50+) they would provide a single unit at the large qty price. I guess that is a lot to ask for, but I didn't know that either.
Looking back in the emails I can see that I asked a lot of them, especially for $100. But I didn't set that price, and when I offered them more money I got no response.
Days later...
What is three ago?
Who is Tho and why didn't they contact me?
He wrote 'Tho' twice. This isn't even his writing style form previous emails, maybe he answered on a cell, I don't know. Yeah I'm the 'shady' one.
Now I know what happened. Between their miscommunication they thought I was trying to get design work for free and now I don't blame them for thinking that because I didn't know the drawing was done.
Apparently it's the above email that sunk my ship with them. Notice I typed "pay for one". Not I want a 1 off for free because I have no intention of ever having any more made and this is just something I want for myself. I know lots of people here get paid by the hour, and take pride in their work. But so do I.
I didn't provide enough information up front. If just once they said anything to indicate that it was going to have this effect I would have taken the day off work and fixed it. I hope someone reading this learns from it, I sure did. Theft is a strong word I shouldn't have used, but I'll clarify that on Monday when we see what I can get from them.
If anyone that does design work is offended by my lack of knowledge and my obvious ignorance to manufacturing then just tell me up front and I'll deal with it. It's that simple.
Alright, I'm done venting for now. Again. I hope this is helping someone design their project. I feel like it's just me complaining at this point. I'm going to stop complaining and get back to doing now. Now that I posted this I'm going to have to produce something soon, a nice silver lining
Feature to feature tolerance is typically .005 - .010, and it can be as small as .003, but that's expensive. Asking for .001 is extreme, and the process isn't typically repeatable to that precision.
Feature to bend is more like .015 - .020, because the bend stretch and placement and material thickness variation stack up with the feature tolerance. This varies some, with thin sheets being tighter, thicker sheets looser.
Bend to bend should be about .020 - .030.
"Sharp bends", which are bends where the inside bend radius is less than about 86 percent of the material thickness can be a problem on stiffer alloys, and on thicker sheets, with cracking along the bend axis being common. Avoid sharps on thicker materials, unless they are required, and then insure they are along the grain direction of the sheet in question.
Tighter tolerances can be required, and where one is, specify it only, leaving the others standard, giving the manufacturer a realistic spec for best cost / success.
They are right about powder coat. It's a difficult material to deal with, because it will flake and chip. Honestly, the smart move there is to get the hole placement sorted out to a much greater detail, so that variance gets engineered away, or specify no finish and deal. Parts can be finished after post-production easily enough. I personally really like PEM nuts, but only when there is hole to hole distances that make them work.
Often, with steel and some stiffer aluminum parts, extrusions can help. Basically, the metal gets formed up into a small tube, and the hole size is basically the tap pilot hole size. Use higher hardness fasteners and the whole works will self-tap. Tooling is expensive though, and for small runs, either they have one you can use, or not... A special tool is likely $1500 to start, easily reaching $10K per shape / feature. Avoid those.
As for the ethics... That's the school of hard knocks. Really, the way to avoid those is to improve your clarity on specification and continue on your engineering to avoid potential problems and variances. Good manufacturers and engineers will have a sit down. I would have, seeing .001" The conversation would have been along the lines we've just had, with a "what do you really want?", and if that question was not clear, probably would have declined the work, just because it won't work for anybody. They were not really taking care of themselves or you. Some are like that, some are not.
Typically, the lowest cost per part comes with lowest levels of service / ethics too. If you add up your personal time, time to market delays, material / waste, etc... paying bottom dollar makes little sense for anything other than a very mature, seriously proven design. Buy up a little, and you will very likely find the ethics / care you need to make progress. Not saying you did any of that, just saying it's true in general.
One last thing. There is a good answer to all of these issues you've bumped into. So, there are two sides to the coin. Having done a lot of "bumping" is frustrating and potentially expensive, right? Or, now you've become an expert in a whole lot of things not to do! I always prefer the latter. Cheers, and take care! I'm just sharing experiences with the best of intentions for you.
Thanks, I never really though about the tolerance I asked for. I thought I was doing it 'better' with the higher tolerance but yes, it's obvious now that it comes into play when they make it. I don't think they used anything past .01" though. My vernier measurements were to .001" though.
I'm getting better in DraftSight and that helps a lot. I cannot wait to be able to do my own design work. I will be using SolidWorks eventually.
I really appreciate the wealth of information you have provided. I'm probably a little spoiled at this point
Re: Solidworks and others... Yep. I've driven many of those programs. Lots of fun.
You could make that a bit less involved. See the bottom horizontal flange? extend it and lengthen it where you would place a PEM nut. See the vertical one? Cut it back, so that it's like the horizontal one, and put .010 or so gap between where it and the bottom flange surface will be. Same to bend, and less overall geometry. You could then move the PEM closer to the outer dimensions of the part, or leave it where it is too. Doing that eliminates that big gap where you've got a bend radius, trading it, for a small seam, and a relief near where the vertical flange would have to stop.
This sounds rather like half a story.
What does " the large qty I was ordering price" mean - were you trying to 'coat-tail' on someone else's order, or your own order ?
Do you have the drawings in your possession ?
I have my drawings in my possession, none of their CAD work.
Sorry for not being more clear. What "the large qty I was ordering price" means is that;
Both companies in the past took my paper drawing, and turned it into a CAD drawing. Then they said okay how many do you want? So I would specify, let's just say 50. At that point I would commit to buying a total of 50. They would then produce one at the unit cost of the qty of 50. So then I could check my design with a physical proof. Then if everything was good I would order the remaining qty. If not they would allow me to pay a revision fee, then send another unit. If that one was good then I'd order the remaining 48. Either way as long as I committed to 50 even a single unit would go out at that price. I would just have to buy the 50 units in a certain amount of time, which at one place was 18 months.
I know how it sounds to someone who doesn't know that is how I'm used to doing business. Now I know that not everyone does it like that. I walked in expecting what I'm used to. Obviously I have no idea, but that's why I enlisted their help in the first place.
Also I would just like to add that the above projects with the previous company was much larger projects with way more bends. Two different wall mounts for LCD monitors and one rack cable management system for server racks. So I really thought this job wouldn't even be an issue.
Here's an example of what happens: Shop burden / hour = $100 (which is not unreasonable)
Say the drawings are not layout ready. Most drawings aren't, unless the engineer / designer knows about sheet metal layout. So, assume one hour to model the desired part from the drawings, 15 minutes to unfold that, 45 minutes to apply CAM, develop and proof manufacturing plan. Another hour to commit the work, purchase order, and verify their model represents the desired engineering intent.
If there are issues, one hour per set of issues communication, markup, approval. Cam and manufacturing plan typically comes after this is done. Adjustments to the model may total another hour.
Before we've made anything at all, just deciding what to make, how to make it, and understand that it is in fact going to be made, totals about 3 hours. If there are any issues, that's 5 hours.
$300-500 production setup.
Typical manufacturing workflow for a sheet metal part would be something like:
1. Shear
2. Punch / laser / water jet
3. Deburr (could be skipped)
4. Grain (could be skipped)
5. Bend
6. Coating (plating)
7. Hardware
8. Paint (could be skipped)
9. QA
10. Package and ship, or FOB Origin for customer pickup.
For a prototype, the bare minimum would be done, so that's:
1. Shear
2. Punch / laser / water jet
3. Deburr (cheap)
4. Bend
5. Hardware
6. QA
7. Ready for pickup.
Staging is 5 minutes per station, setup verify previous operation is 10 minutes, and the operation itself will take some time. For hardware, it's minutes, deburr minutes, bend it's 15-30 minutes setup, then test bend, then bend final, which means they will actually produce 3-5 parts in order to insure they get one good one to ship, quantity one. Laser is quick, a few minutes. Punch is 15-30 minutes setup, then a few minutes to operate. Final QA might be 15-30 minutes, depending. Package and ship is cheap.
Honestly, to just walk through the shop and make the thing would take a coupla three hours. Most shops have a prototype crew that does this, so let's call it 3 hours.
Material costs for that part equal a fractional sheet, let's say 1/4 sheet = $35 bucks, or something outta the remnant / scrap bin.
Given these things, a real quote would be:
Non recurring engineering / setup charge = $500 - $750, including one prototype shipped / for pickup. There are economies of scale that impact this, and the investment / potential return that impact it too. It would be given away for a chance at thousands of great parts to make, for example.
QTY 50 = xxx part cost (including desired margin)
Edit: Quote the other way might mean:
($500 - $750 / 50) + (per part cost QTY 50) = $ / unit + (revision charge / hour) + desired margin
The first way means we make the investment, and they make stuff. Done the second way means they share the investment, in the hopes of making more stuff.
Edit: To be really clear, I didn't put this here to detail wrong or right, or fault or not, just for information that might help those who might benefit from some process / cost detail, that's all. I've done all of it, from each manufacturing step, proto crew work, layout, planning and customer interaction / sales / project management, and thought it might be of use.
They had me get two weeks experience in the "estimating department". One exercise there was to determine from drawings the steps needed / time / cost of making a simple aluminium box. Sheet cut, holes punched, bent up and welded at the seems.
The result came out to about 3000 UK Pounds which I thought must be wrong as it's a bit less than my annual salary at the time!!
The boss was happy with the result and said it was with 10% of what it costs them to make that stuff in house.
Very impressive Heater.
Bruce
So, it's a trip to engineering with the drawings on the table, red pencils at the ready (this was during the time of early 3D CAD, making it somewhat difficult to do 3D design reviews as they are typically done today), and we went at it. Can we make this one piece? Do you need welds here? How about snap tabs, or lock tab features to reduce fixture costs? What is the design reason for that hole diameter? Will this shape work, so it nests with the other ones, preserving more of the sheet? Etc... The reason for Saturday was simple: Production didn't want to change. So, we did the changes when nobody was looking, got metrics, etc... then just changed the process plans, armed for bear on the bitching to come! The owner of that place gave two of us the keys, and we just did the right things on high cost items, or on demand when somebody came to get a cost reduction.
That guy was old school too. If we really pulled the cost out of some stuff, he would hand us a hand full of cash and tell us, "you stay out of trouble, because I need you here on Monday" LOL!! (I was about 20 at the time, my buddy a few years older) I distinctly remember a conversation along the lines of, "what do I do with this?" thinking of taxes and such, the answer being, "shut up, put it in your pocket, see you Monday..." Happy times.
Often, we would actually increase margin per part, after giving them the cost reduction they asked for. Cool stuff, and the entertainment of many Saturdays in the shop making stuff "skunk works" style to prove out aggressive process plans and such. The estimators who had not actually made or engineered things produced reasonable costs. We produced seriously good costs, proving out where needed.
@Heater, yeah I posted up the torture. The real fun was well... on Saturday, or in the CAD system building up great stuff that was cheaper, lighter, etc... Those guys should have had you go and make some boxes! (your estimates would have been even less!)
Even designing their own 16 bit embedded processors and such.
They had very carefully worked out estimating systems, the time taken for every tiny little job could be looked up in a table and added to the estimate. One just had to identify all the minutia of manufacturing steps from the drawings, and look up the time/materials it takes.
Most things were not made in large quantities so it's all pretty much made to order one off. Expensive.
Potatohead,
I did actually volunteer at the time, as a joke.
Given that I had a fair amount of experience making such things, been building tube radio chassis since 13 years old and been through a fair bit of metal shop courses including machining, aluminium casting and so on.
I said:
"Give me the ally and I'll come back with the box in two weeks. A couple of those a year would have double my income and get 11 months holiday:)"
It was a fabulous place to work and learn with amazing products. Sadly all gone now since Margaret Thatcher decided to buy radars from the states and that we don't need to make anything in Blighty anymore.
@Heater: Just to have "Marconi Radar" on the resume' would be excellent. Yes, those older school companies were awesome! Here in the NW, Tektronix, Floating Point Systems, Sequent, and others were similar. Then there was Intel, but I didn't work there, nor produce anything for them. I actually love manufacturing. Here, it does not pay well.
On the job training was worth a ton! Experience I took into smaller places and just had a blast for the freedom they often provide. (and cash of course!)
Because I lived in a rural, somewhat backward place growing up, my first electronics projects were tubes, with the usual aluminum box, pop-rivet bus strips and point to point wiring. Loved those. Would work on those in shop, then clean up and go program and tinker with the Apple 8 bit computers, returning home to play on the tube HAM transmitter in the evening. Tubes, micros, circuits, cars, welding machines, forge, breaks, and all manner of fun!
Heck, this kind of makes me want to go find an old radio to restore now.
Not sure anymore, has anyone who might hire me no a days ever heard of them? Today they want to see "Google" or "Facebook" or some other fly my night web company. And I'm for sure to old to play with those youngsters.
Hah! Tried that with a good old MW radio picked up in a flea market a couple of years back. Only to discover there is nothing on MW around here anymore.
I'm always trying to think of that perfect symbiosis of tubes and Propeller for a project. So far the best idea have is a NIXIE tube display driven by a Prop.
Yeah, lots of MW here. No worries there.
Tubes... Hard one. The first thing that comes to mind is a CRT... Not all that cool really. Well, I'll think on that one. Would be great to see something done with a Prop and tubes though.
Not cool??!! Might be if you had one of these monsters http://www.tubecollector.org/vcr97.htm Which I do:)
From early aircraft radar.Trouble is it's in store somewhere and I can't get to it so easily. It needs a 1000v power supply and I'm seriously lacking in a nice space to work on such a thing.
What would be the perfect marriage of the triodes linear amplification, high impedance input and high voltage handling together with the Props 8 cores, counters and video ability? Something that could not be done so easily with any other combination of devices?