Shop OBEX P1 Docs P2 Docs Learn Events
Linux OS for Propeller? — Parallax Forums

Linux OS for Propeller?

John BoardJohn Board Posts: 371
edited 2012-04-19 19:40 in Propeller 1
G'day,

Anyone know of a linux distro that I can install on a microSD card for my Gadget Gangster board? I know it is a long shot, but I was inspired by the Beagle Bone board (http://beagleboard.org/bone).

Thanks
«1

Comments

  • pedwardpedward Posts: 1,642
    edited 2012-03-20 22:11
    The regular Linux kernel is pretty heavyweight for something like the Propeller. The real problem isn't processing power, it's memory.

    The closest thing that you could come to would be the ELKS project. This is an x86 Embedded Linux Kernel Subset project. They have gotten a minimal Minix like OS running on IBM PC/XT level hardware. The drawback is that significant parts of the ELKS kernel is written in x86 assembly language.

    Given that a Z80 emulator exists, I wouldn't be surprised if someone wrote an 8086 emulator.

    It would still be faster to write a kernel from scratch to run on the Propeller, an emulator would require XMM to provide the minimalist functionality.
  • John BoardJohn Board Posts: 371
    edited 2012-03-20 22:15
    Well, it doesn't really matter, I was just interested. In the end, storing the program (and emulator if possible) on the microSD card would eliminate the issue of space, as my card has about 4 GB of space on it.

    Coincidently, I'm about to write a terminal for propeller anyway..

    -John
  • John BoardJohn Board Posts: 371
    edited 2012-03-20 22:17
    Also, how would I be able to use a computer programming language, such as Java, or Python, to download eeprom files (i.e. generated by propellant) onto the chip?

    [EDIT] Never mind, it appears that Propellent has it built in anyway...
  • rod1963rod1963 Posts: 752
    edited 2012-03-20 23:06
    Linux never made sense on micro-controller, it's basically the equivalent of teaching a dog to walk and trying use it as a ballroom dance partner - it just ain't right. If someone really wants a OS with with all the goodies, better wait for the Prop II and write a custom OS for it.
  • Martin HodgeMartin Hodge Posts: 1,246
    edited 2012-03-21 06:42
    John, search the forum for "spinix". It's a UNIX-like shell for the propeller. Pretty neat.
  • Oldbitcollector (Jeff)Oldbitcollector (Jeff) Posts: 8,091
    edited 2012-03-21 08:24
    Second that on Spinix..

    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?123795-spinix

    OBC
  • tingotingo Posts: 87
    edited 2012-03-27 14:41
    Spinix sounds neat. Thanks for pointing it out.
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,313
    edited 2012-03-27 17:56
    John Board wrote: »
    Well, it doesn't really matter, I was just interested. In the end, storing the program (and emulator if possible) on the microSD card would eliminate the issue of space, as my card has about 4 GB of space on it.

    Coincidently, I'm about to write a terminal for propeller anyway..

    -John

    Hey John

    Don't know if this is what you are looking for, but maybe check out the GO thread http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?138412-GO-language-amp-Hoare-CSP-Channels/page2

    We are using propforth, its the closest thing to an OS for the prop without adding tons of expensive and complicated hardware
  • John BoardJohn Board Posts: 371
    edited 2012-03-27 18:09
    prof_braino wrote: »
    Hey John

    Don't know if this is what you are looking for, but maybe check out the GO thread http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?138412-GO-language-amp-Hoare-CSP-Channels/page2

    We are using propforth, its the closest thing to an OS for the prop without adding tons of expensive and complicated hardware

    Checking it out.

    Thanks everyone for your input, when I have time, I'm gonna look into spinix as well.

    -John
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2012-04-03 07:21
    Gentlemen, it appears we have been backsliding on the Linux for Propeller idea.

    Dmitry Grinberg has a full up Ubuntu running on 8 bit AVR's. http://dmitry.co/index.php?p=./04.Thoughts/07.%20Linux%20on%208bit
  • Dave HeinDave Hein Posts: 6,347
    edited 2012-04-03 07:49
    It takes about 2 hours to boot to bash prompt ("init=/bin/bash" kernel command line). Then 4 more hours to boot up the entire Ubuntu ("exec init" and then login).
    It's an interesting accomplishment, but it's not very practical.
  • Oldbitcollector (Jeff)Oldbitcollector (Jeff) Posts: 8,091
    edited 2012-04-03 08:00
    The linux clone for the C64 didn't take that long to load! :)

    OBC
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2012-04-03 10:16
    GCC has been ported to Propeller, so If you want to port Linux to run on Propeller there is a starting point.
  • pedwardpedward Posts: 1,642
    edited 2012-04-03 13:03
    The important thing to note is that he wrote a 32bit ARMv5 emulator for the AVR, and he added a 16MB SIMM for memory.

    Sure, you can add an SDRAM for narrow width XMM, and you could write an ARM emulator, but the real question comes down to: "to what end?"
  • jazzedjazzed Posts: 11,803
    edited 2012-04-03 13:26
    pedward wrote: »
    The important thing to note is that he wrote a 32bit ARMv5 emulator for the AVR, and he added a 16MB SIMM for memory.

    Sure, you can add an SDRAM for narrow width XMM, and you could write an ARM emulator, but the real question comes down to: "to what end?"

    Yes, and emulators have been done before. Obviously you don't do that kind of thing expecting any big reward.

    To what end? Guess it depends on the person crazy enough to try it.

    Getting Propeller to run Linux IS impossible, and we should never expect to see it happen.

    There was a once $2000 reward for doing it on Propeller without emulation. No idea if that still stands.
  • __red____red__ Posts: 470
    edited 2012-04-03 18:33
    pedward wrote: »
    "to what end?"

    Are you kidding me? ... because we can :cool:
  • rod1963rod1963 Posts: 752
    edited 2012-04-03 19:21
    Makes no sense and is a waste of talent.Look if someone can do a native code version of Linux they ought to be writing some killer application for the Prop instead that gives it commercial visibility and maybe making some $$$$ instead of going down a dead end street.

    Maybe like coming up with a version of PSOC Creator for the Prop I and the upcoming II or something that targets the PLC community. Anything but stuffing a monster OS on a tiny micro.
  • Sal AmmoniacSal Ammoniac Posts: 213
    edited 2012-04-03 22:22
    G'day,

    Anyone know of a linux distro that I can install on my toaster? I know it is a long shot, but I was inspired by the Beagle Bone board (http://beagleboard.org/bone).

    Thanks


    ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-)
  • Dr_AculaDr_Acula Posts: 5,484
    edited 2012-04-03 22:28
    Anyone know of a linux distro that I can install on my toaster?

    Oh great. An intelligent toaster http://reddwarf.wikia.com/wiki/Talkie_Toaster



    Toaster: Howdy doodly do. How's it going? I'm Talkie, Talkie Toaster, your chirpy breakfast companion. Talkie's the name, toasting's the game. Anyone like any toast?
    Lister: Look, I don't want any toast, and he doesn't want any toast. In fact, no one around here wants any toast. Not now, not ever. No toast.
    Toaster: How 'bout a muffin?
    Lister: Or muffins. Or muffins. We don't like muffins around here. We want no muffins, no toast, no teacakes, no buns, baps, baguettes or bagels, no croissants, no crumpets, no pancakes, no potato cakes and no hot-cross buns and definitely no smegging flapjacks.
    Toaster: Aah, so you're a waffle man.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2012-04-03 23:04
    rod1963,
    Makes no sense and is a waste of talent.

    I would venture to suggest that 90% of what goes on around here "Makes no sense" in that it is done for fun as a hobby and will never make anyone any money or secure their lively hood. There is a lot of talent here and elsewhere that is in dire need of doing something for amusement as a break from whatever it is applied to 10 hours per day at work. There is talent to spare.
    Look if someone can do a native code version of Linux they ought to be writing some killer application for the Prop instead that gives it commercial visibility and maybe making some $$$$ instead of going down a dead end street.

    Strangely enough I don't think I or many people are using the Prop or participating in this forum to make money for Parallax. That is Parallax's problem. We are here and using Propellers for many diverse reasons and of course having Parallax thrive is in our own interest and is good to see.
    Maybe like coming up with a version of PSOC Creator for the Prop I and the upcoming II or something that targets the PLC community.

    "...PLC..." yawn. Thing is, we can't do anything unless we are captivated and enthused by an idea. PLC's just don't do it, for me at least
    Anything but stuffing a monster OS on a tiny micro.

    Well, it is impossible anyway so no need to worry:)
  • Cluso99Cluso99 Posts: 18,069
    edited 2012-04-03 23:14
    No, I don't want toast either...

    Could you port it to my coffee maker?
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2012-04-03 23:50
    Clusso,
    Could you port it to my coffee maker?

    Why not? Might need on of these: http://www.igep.es/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=109&Itemid=123

    Then you could fit Linux into the handle or somewhere.
  • tingotingo Posts: 87
    edited 2012-04-05 08:40
    Sal Ammoniac wrote: »
    Anyone know of a linux distro that I can install on my toaster? I know it is a long shot, but I was inspired by the Beagle Bone board (http://beagleboard.org/bone).
    Everybody knows that toasters run NetBSD: http://www.embeddedarm.com/software/arm-netbsd-toaster.php
    :-)
  • pik33pik33 Posts: 2,398
    edited 2012-04-06 10:07
    20 yeas ago I had Slackware Linux running on 386 with a few MBs of RAM. It was stored on some 5.25" disks... so it must be possible to run such (small, text only) version (and not today's Suse or Ubuntu with X) on Propeller. Eventually, a custom assembler VM has to be written, which can execute PASM-like virtual code from external RAM, and gcc ported to it.
  • rod1963rod1963 Posts: 752
    edited 2012-04-06 19:07
    Well no reason to get all sensitive about it, I just opined, didn't know I'd be stepping on someone's corns. Besides a Prop PLC makes a lot more sense than a crippled Linux running on a over taxed micro. That's as boring as watching paint dry. But hey go for it since you've been jonesing for it for years.

    BTW never said it was impossible, just didn't make sense.
  • rod1963rod1963 Posts: 752
    edited 2012-04-06 19:54
    Pik,

    Check out uClinux for sources for a port.It doesn't need VM or a MMU. But the processors that it's been ported to are a lot more powerful than the Prop and don't have it's external memory shortfalls.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2012-04-06 21:51
    rod1963,


    Me, "sensitive"? Nah. Shrug.


    The sensible half of my brain does actually agree with you. Applying the
    Prop to real world problems, as tackled by, PLC's is a better idea. Grow
    the Prop market and we are all better off. It's just not something that grabs
    my enthusiasm. I program for a living anyway, where I always keep an eye out
    problems that the Prop could tackle for us, so for hobby work you may not get
    anything sensible out of me:)


    That's the first time I ever heard the "jonesing it" expression. As much as I may
    crave it I'm not going to be the one to do it. Spent enough time just getting CP/M to
    run on the Prop already. Another fun but basically useless project. Getting
    Linux up on new ARM boards when you have almost everything you need in place
    has been hard enough for me in the past.


    The "impossible" thing is a bit of a standing joke around here. Say it's
    impossible on the Prop and it seems to get done.


    I seem to remember that Tom's Boot Root Linux came on two floppies so we are not
    asking much.


    We now have external memory solutions that will do the job.


    We now have propgcc so we can at least get Linux compiled for the Prop and
    external memory. No need for an ARM emulator or such in there.


    The MMU issue can be handled by the external memory cache software if need be.


    Looks dangerously possible but still useless. But what about for the Prop II
    where things will be much faster or the Prop III.


    Given the effort by Parallax to get GCC for the Prop because it's an industry
    standard and demanded by "professionals" you may find Linux on a future Prop for
    the same reasons.
  • PerryPerry Posts: 253
    edited 2012-04-19 18:28
    Forget about Linux on the Propeller, it is ancient technology. If you follow the work done by the designers of Unix you will find about "Plan 9 from Bell Labs" (a name that is problematic for marketing purposes) and later "Inferno".

    This takes the concepts of Unix to greater levels as a network OS that scales from small machines to very large ones..

    "The Good, the bad, the ugly: the Unix Legacy" http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/good_bad_ugly/slides.pdf


    Some links that will give you a flavor of what can be done.

    "Plan 9" http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/9.html

    "Styx-on-a-brick" http://doc.cat-v.org/inferno/4th_edition/styx-on-a-brick/

    "Levitating across the river Styx" http://4e.iwp9.org/papers/levitation.pdf

    "Aero Acoustic Levitator" http://www.ppmeasurements.com/docs/manual.pdf

    Java on Dis" http://doc.cat-v.org/inferno/java_on_dis/

    Perry
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2012-04-19 18:54
    Datapoint's RMS (Resource Management System) was developed in the 1970's on their 5500 which was an 8-bit processor with up to 64K of memory (with a simple MMU). It was the first commercial networked operating system and is still sold today for use with Intel PCs. It took the notions of named I/O devices and extended it further so that these devices could be anywhere in the network and appeared identical to the user program whether they were on the local machine or a mile away. These included the user console, so you could be using a keyboard and display on one machine, be running your application on another machine, and have your files, printer, and com ports all on different machines around the network. It could certainly be done using the Prop II and could be done on a Prop I with external RAM. The 5500 was fast for its time, but not very fast these days.
  • PerryPerry Posts: 253
    edited 2012-04-19 19:04
    Mike Green wrote: »
    Datapoint's RMS (Resource Management System) was developed in the 1970's on their 5500 which was an 8-bit processor with up to 128K of memory (with a simple MMU). It was the first commercial networked operating system and is still sold today for use with Intel PCs. It took the notions of named I/O devices and extended it further so that these devices could be anywhere in the network and appeared identical to the user program whether they were on the local machine or a mile away. These included the user console, so you could be using a keyboard and display on one machine, be running your application on another machine, and have your files, printer, and com ports all on different machines around the network. It could certainly be done using the Prop II and could be done on a Prop I with external RAM. The 5500 was fast for its time, but not very fast these days.

    Nice reference to prior art,

    is the source open? (appears to be proprietary)

    how many CPU architectures has it been ported to? ( only runs on intel and AMD x86 products)

    Small implementations of 9p/styx do not need MMUs.

    I think the DIS virtual machine is a perfect candidate for implementation with Propeller XMM capabilties

    Perry

    Perry
Sign In or Register to comment.