Leon/others: though off-topic, I'd be interested in more information about that Jetstar artwork film and the associated PCB artwork production process (printer configuration/media setting), or perhaps a forum link to the same.
I've been using an injet printer on inexpensive ink-jet overhead transparency film with acceptable results so far (I've also tried a laser printer on other media with lesser results). However, my trace widths are increasingly becoming smaller, and, while I think that the that the technique is okay for a QFP Prop, for example, I doubt it'd go much finer. The overhead film I use (smooth on one side, rough on the ink side) seems okay overall and doesn't bleed much. There is occasionally some banding that may be from the printer (a cheaper Epson). Also, I've actually taped two sheets together to get more opaque lines a few times, but that can cause lines to be a bit fuzzy and generally doesn't seem necessary.
Anyway, I'm wondering if that Jetstar media (or similar) would give even better results. I looked up the Jetstar media online, and they mention it being applicable to or ideal for PCB production work. I'm just curious what other "secrets" might be involved. And back to this thread, what's the application of the photoplotter, and to what extent does it improve on inkjet/laser/dye-sub printers?
what's the application of the photoplotter, and to what extent does it improve on inkjet/laser/dye-sub printers?
It produces completely opaque photomasks with sharp imaging so that very fine detail can be achieved through photoimaging to a pcb positive or negative film. For instance, my LaserJet 6L printer is incapable of producing a well defined 4/4 or 6/6 pattern, and has a very difficult time with a 8/8 pattern. With photoplotting, a mask can be made where these patterns are very sharp, distinct, and opaque.
Leon/others: though off-topic, I'd be interested in more information about that Jetstar artwork film and the associated PCB artwork production process (printer configuration/media setting), or perhaps a forum link to the same.
I've been using an injet printer on inexpensive ink-jet overhead transparency film with acceptable results so far (I've also tried a laser printer on other media with lesser results). However, my trace widths are increasingly becoming smaller, and, while I think that the that the technique is okay for a QFP Prop, for example, I doubt it'd go much finer. The overhead film I use (smooth on one side, rough on the ink side) seems okay overall and doesn't bleed much. There is occasionally some banding that may be from the printer (a cheaper Epson). Also, I've actually taped two sheets together to get more opaque lines a few times, but that can cause lines to be a bit fuzzy and generally doesn't seem necessary.
Anyway, I'm wondering if that Jetstar media (or similar) would give even better results. I looked up the Jetstar media online, and they mention it being applicable to or ideal for PCB production work. I'm just curious what other "secrets" might be involved. And back to this thread, what's the application of the photoplotter, and to what extent does it improve on inkjet/laser/dye-sub printers?
I just thought of something.... My PCB driller is already for construction, and it will be the moving table type. This driller is designed for 3 X 4 boards with a little additional room on each axis. I could simply make an attachment to replace the Z-axis and I would already have the table.
If you need to create a driver for a photoplotter, then you should visit this web page, however it is WINDOWS OS specific. This webpage will provide several links that explain the creation of a plotter driver, plus it provides you with access to the Windows Driver Kit Version 7.1.0, which gives you the tools you need to create the driver.
If you need to create a driver for a photoplotter, then you should visit this web page, however it is WINDOWS OS specific. This webpage will provide several links that explain the creation of a plotter driver, plus it provides you with access to the Windows Driver Kit Version 7.1.0, which gives you the tools you need to create the driver.
I guess print drivers are the professional way of doing things but probably the most work. You could use an SD card as mentioned or serial over the programming interface.
It also looks like you would still require to write hardware drivers.
I guess print drivers are the professional way of doing things but probably the most work. You could use an SD card as mentioned or serial over the programming interface.
It also looks like you would still require to write hardware drivers.
The benefit of writing your own driver is that you can precisely control the DPI by the resoultion of the motors. I don't know if you took the time to seriously read the assorted documents related to that link, but there is an easy way and a more difficult way:
In the more difficult way, you establish two property sheets for user settings.
I believe writing the PCD file and compiling it would be the way to go. However, by creating the two property sheets, you could establish different size film sheets for plotting that a user could choose from. On the other hand, a person could always create multiple PCD files and compile them for each film size they plan on using.
You will have to excuse me if I don't put my heart and sole into your project, I'm knee deep in my own stuff. Although I may not have read it "seriously" what was not clear to me was where the hardware interface part of the system comes in, it would seem that would need a driver depending on the type of interface between the PC and the plotter.
And it seems you need to create a HPLG/2 compliant device. I have no idea what this entails, you obviously have this under control so I will leave you to it.
In fact the more I do read the more is seems that this driver software is just to create a nice properties box as you have for most printers. So it is the WDK where the real device driver would be written, sounds like fun
You will have to excuse me if I don't put my heart and sole into your project, I'm knee deep in my own stuff.
I understand completely, I just assumed you were interested in the discussion. In reality, I just started this thread in the hopes of being able to control a cd laser diode and optical block with a Propeller chip, but now that the discussion and research has gone this far, I now have a much more comprehensive understanding of what needs to be done in order to conquer my future goal. I do appreciate the input that you have put into this thread.
Bruce, thanks for the informative reply to my photoplotter inquery. Carry on, good Sir. Leon, thanks for the reply. If you do create such a thread, I'll lap it up like a thirsty dog, but do so at your own pace.
During my initial research, it appeared that a CD laser would be just the kind of laser needed for a photoplotter project, however upon further investigation, it now appears that a DVD laser would be much more suitable.
Over the last week, I have been researching information pertaining to this project whenever I had a few minutes available. I could be wrong, but I now believe that many of the features available from an optical block would not be required for this type of application. For instance, the optical block provides a means for properly tracking the laser beam to the lands and groves of a CD or DVD. Since photoplotter film will not have lands and grooves, there is not reason to interface this ability of the optical block. However, the optical block also provides a means for focusing the laser beam to a given media. For simplicities sake, I will also try to avoid interfacing this ability also, but it may be necessary in the long run.
As mentioned in the previous post, it appears that a CD laser will be incompatible will most photoplotter films, and a DVD laser would be more suitable. As you can imagine, I will be tearing apart a DVD player shortly.
To power the diode, I will be using the Simple Laser Diode Power Supply or the Sam's Laser Diode Driver (SG-LD1) which can be found here: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/laserdps.htm
Bruce
EDIT: As a side note, I have submitted a request with FUJIFilm for samples pertaining to their HG HCP-7, HG HPR-7, and HG HPB-7S photoplotter films, as well as the necessary developer. So far they have not responded, but hopefully they will.
Yep you just need the diode and focussing lens. The latter normally floats on flexural bearings (some thin wire) to allow the voice coils to do there thing so it might be best to remove it and make a very simple housing. Or a few dots of hot glue will soon stiffen it up for the time being.
The way they are configured means that you cannot operate the focus by only or rather the tracking must be active or the lens will not be restrained in that axis, this is because the flexures allow 2-axis motion. So to have focus only would require some further restraint. Should not be required anyway.
It strikes me that the focus mechanism might be useful for ensuring a sharp result. Yes its probably something to tackle later.
Also... have you thought of fashioning a light sensitive PCB into "DVD or mini CD" shape, so that it could be 'photodeveloped' in a standard blue ray dvd drive? Albeit with a hole in the middle.
You would need low level control over the dvd drive motors, alternatively you could just hack the drive and control the motors from a prop.
Some of the photosensitive films seem to respond well into the 'blue' region of the spectrum.
Main reason a DVD-burner or somesuch can't be used to "burn" a PCB is that the focus mechanism relies on servo feedback cut into the disk from the factory.
I presume that eventually I will need some type of focusing mechansim due to imperfections in the table or film surface, however, just to get the ball rolling, I will start my experimentations without it.
As for the remaining content of your post, I will do my best to give you a quick oversight of my vision. I have never disclosed this publicly, although I am sure a few people may have figured it out, so I might as well share it with the world.
With the exception of my PCB cutter, all of my PCB processing equipment has been or will be designed for a 3" X 4" format. This includes my current Tin Can Double Sided PCB Exposure Box / Cylinder, the combination PCB driller/laser photoplotter that I am about to build, and any developing or any etching equipment that I may build. I am designing and building my equipment with the electronic enthuiast and hobbyist in mind, however, when I attempt to take this equipment to market, it will not be free. However, with the equipment, a hobbyist will be able to quickly design and prototype circuits. You may be wondering why the 3" X 4" format, so I will tell you. There are many people here that will vouch for other PCB design software, but I prefer Eagle Lite, because it is free and it has a lot of versatility, and additionally, I also believe it is the most used freeware for PCB design. I don't have any actual statistics, but I imagine there are millions of users around the world. If my assumption is correct about the number of users, this will be a huge market for my equipment and company.
Bruce
EDIT: I missed the main point that Eagle Lite has an approximate 3" X 4" limitation for board size. Additionally, machines that have this size limitation should be relatively inexpensive to build.
As mentioned in a previous post, it appears that a DVD laser diode can be used for a photoplotter. From what I have been able to decipher from the information available, DVD laser diodes produce a red beam, and the wavelength for such a laser diode can range from 635 - 660 nm. According to my interpretation of FUGIFilm datasheets, the HG HPR-7 film would be the film to be used in combination with a laser diode salvaged from a DVD player.
On the other hand, if a person is willing to buy a laser diode from a supplier or if they have means to measure the wavelengths of light, other film options are available.
Yes, Kodak ACCUMAX RED7 would work equally as well as the HG HPR-7 film, however, since Kodak recently filed for bankruptcy, I am a little concerned about the supply of their products, which is why I refer to FUJIFilm.
I would definitely agree with that statement, but a person must also take into consideration that the beam should be collimated and focused. Purchasing a laser diode is easy and inexpensive, but purchasing a laser diode with a collimating and objective lens is probably quite a different story. I can't say for certain.
Comments
The following patent document appears to have some interesting content:
The front page depicts two laser interferometers which control the motors.
I've been using an injet printer on inexpensive ink-jet overhead transparency film with acceptable results so far (I've also tried a laser printer on other media with lesser results). However, my trace widths are increasingly becoming smaller, and, while I think that the that the technique is okay for a QFP Prop, for example, I doubt it'd go much finer. The overhead film I use (smooth on one side, rough on the ink side) seems okay overall and doesn't bleed much. There is occasionally some banding that may be from the printer (a cheaper Epson). Also, I've actually taped two sheets together to get more opaque lines a few times, but that can cause lines to be a bit fuzzy and generally doesn't seem necessary.
Anyway, I'm wondering if that Jetstar media (or similar) would give even better results. I looked up the Jetstar media online, and they mention it being applicable to or ideal for PCB production work. I'm just curious what other "secrets" might be involved. And back to this thread, what's the application of the photoplotter, and to what extent does it improve on inkjet/laser/dye-sub printers?
It produces completely opaque photomasks with sharp imaging so that very fine detail can be achieved through photoimaging to a pcb positive or negative film. For instance, my LaserJet 6L printer is incapable of producing a well defined 4/4 or 6/6 pattern, and has a very difficult time with a 8/8 pattern. With photoplotting, a mask can be made where these patterns are very sharp, distinct, and opaque.
Bruce
I'll start a separate thread about my techniques.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/ff556560(v=vs.85).aspx
Bruce
I saw that, I assumed it would be something of interest in the context of your photoplotter build.
I guess print drivers are the professional way of doing things but probably the most work. You could use an SD card as mentioned or serial over the programming interface.
It also looks like you would still require to write hardware drivers.
Graham
The benefit of writing your own driver is that you can precisely control the DPI by the resoultion of the motors. I don't know if you took the time to seriously read the assorted documents related to that link, but there is an easy way and a more difficult way:
In the more difficult way, you establish two property sheets for user settings.
Bruce
I mainly read this page:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/hardware/ff559827(v=vs.85).aspx
And it seems you need to create a HPLG/2 compliant device. I have no idea what this entails, you obviously have this under control so I will leave you to it.
Graham
I understand completely, I just assumed you were interested in the discussion. In reality, I just started this thread in the hopes of being able to control a cd laser diode and optical block with a Propeller chip, but now that the discussion and research has gone this far, I now have a much more comprehensive understanding of what needs to be done in order to conquer my future goal. I do appreciate the input that you have put into this thread.
Bruce
Grhaam
Until he creates the thread, you may want to visit http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?135950-ATTN-PCBers-SUBJECT-New-website-and-exposure-box-design-for-your-creative-needs. JetStar film has been discussed in this thread a couple of times.
Bruce
During my initial research, it appeared that a CD laser would be just the kind of laser needed for a photoplotter project, however upon further investigation, it now appears that a DVD laser would be much more suitable.
Bruce
As mentioned in the previous post, it appears that a CD laser will be incompatible will most photoplotter films, and a DVD laser would be more suitable. As you can imagine, I will be tearing apart a DVD player shortly.
To power the diode, I will be using the Simple Laser Diode Power Supply or the Sam's Laser Diode Driver (SG-LD1) which can be found here: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/laserdps.htm
Bruce
EDIT: As a side note, I have submitted a request with FUJIFilm for samples pertaining to their HG HCP-7, HG HPR-7, and HG HPB-7S photoplotter films, as well as the necessary developer. So far they have not responded, but hopefully they will.
The way they are configured means that you cannot operate the focus by only or rather the tracking must be active or the lens will not be restrained in that axis, this is because the flexures allow 2-axis motion. So to have focus only would require some further restraint. Should not be required anyway.
Graham
It strikes me that the focus mechanism might be useful for ensuring a sharp result. Yes its probably something to tackle later.
Also... have you thought of fashioning a light sensitive PCB into "DVD or mini CD" shape, so that it could be 'photodeveloped' in a standard blue ray dvd drive? Albeit with a hole in the middle.
You would need low level control over the dvd drive motors, alternatively you could just hack the drive and control the motors from a prop.
Some of the photosensitive films seem to respond well into the 'blue' region of the spectrum.
cheers
tubular
Thanks for the response.
I presume that eventually I will need some type of focusing mechansim due to imperfections in the table or film surface, however, just to get the ball rolling, I will start my experimentations without it.
As for the remaining content of your post, I will do my best to give you a quick oversight of my vision. I have never disclosed this publicly, although I am sure a few people may have figured it out, so I might as well share it with the world.
With the exception of my PCB cutter, all of my PCB processing equipment has been or will be designed for a 3" X 4" format. This includes my current Tin Can Double Sided PCB Exposure Box / Cylinder, the combination PCB driller/laser photoplotter that I am about to build, and any developing or any etching equipment that I may build. I am designing and building my equipment with the electronic enthuiast and hobbyist in mind, however, when I attempt to take this equipment to market, it will not be free. However, with the equipment, a hobbyist will be able to quickly design and prototype circuits. You may be wondering why the 3" X 4" format, so I will tell you. There are many people here that will vouch for other PCB design software, but I prefer Eagle Lite, because it is free and it has a lot of versatility, and additionally, I also believe it is the most used freeware for PCB design. I don't have any actual statistics, but I imagine there are millions of users around the world. If my assumption is correct about the number of users, this will be a huge market for my equipment and company.
Bruce
EDIT: I missed the main point that Eagle Lite has an approximate 3" X 4" limitation for board size. Additionally, machines that have this size limitation should be relatively inexpensive to build.
As mentioned in a previous post, it appears that a DVD laser diode can be used for a photoplotter. From what I have been able to decipher from the information available, DVD laser diodes produce a red beam, and the wavelength for such a laser diode can range from 635 - 660 nm. According to my interpretation of FUGIFilm datasheets, the HG HPR-7 film would be the film to be used in combination with a laser diode salvaged from a DVD player.
On the other hand, if a person is willing to buy a laser diode from a supplier or if they have means to measure the wavelengths of light, other film options are available.
Bruce
http://www.kodak.com/ek/US/en/Aerial_Industrial_Markets/Printed_Circuit_Board_Products/Films/Photoplotter_Films/ACCUMAX_Photoplotter_Film_RED7.htm
Yes, Kodak ACCUMAX RED7 would work equally as well as the HG HPR-7 film, however, since Kodak recently filed for bankruptcy, I am a little concerned about the supply of their products, which is why I refer to FUJIFilm.
Bruce
I would definitely agree with that statement, but a person must also take into consideration that the beam should be collimated and focused. Purchasing a laser diode is easy and inexpensive, but purchasing a laser diode with a collimating and objective lens is probably quite a different story. I can't say for certain.
Bruce