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14500 Lithium batteries - same size as AA (nearly) — Parallax Forums

14500 Lithium batteries - same size as AA (nearly)

LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
edited 2012-07-08 01:26 in General Discussion
I went shopping for some generic Lipo batteries for RC electric airplane and discovered the 14500 series that are 3.7V and some are even over 2.4ah capacity. They are 0.5mm longer than regular AA.

I was a bit surprised that I had several options with rather big increases in capacity. I have the 18650s, but mine are 1950ma and now there are 3000ma ones available. And in the 16555, I can get 2700ma.

Since these charge much faster than the NiCd genre, and provide more than triple volt in an AA package - it seems time to permanently set aside Alkaline and NiCd batteries.
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Comments

  • ercoerco Posts: 20,254
    edited 2011-12-29 09:03
    Have to round some up, they do sound great!

    Hmmm...

    Until the wife or kids grab 4 without asking and use them in place of AA batteries.

    I love the smell of coffee, Christmas trees, and magic smoke in the morning!

    An Ebay search shows many rated at 1200 mA: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=14500++battery&_sacat=92074&_sop=15&_odkw=14500+Lithium+battery&_osacat=92074&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313
  • sam_sam_samsam_sam_sam Posts: 2,286
    edited 2011-12-29 15:41
    [QUOTE=erco;1062200

    Hmmm...

    Until the wife or kids grab 4 without asking and use them in place of AA batteries and magic smoke ! .....> come out

    [/QUOTE]

    I caution you to let other in your house hold that these cell are NOT the same battery that they use to
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2011-12-30 02:36
    Well, I returned to the store and bought a pair of 1200ma 3.7V 14500s. Upon taking a close look, they are a bit longer (maybe 1/16th of an inch) than a true AA. But they seem like they will fit nicely in a generic AA battery holder.

    It seems with the amount of power available and the higher voltage, these guys will begin to seriously overtake the Alkaline cell market. NickelCadium and such never got a good foot hold because they didn't provide as high a voltage and charge was often less.

    At least for hobby stuff, I am ready to go all lithium now. Just think, one battery, no regulator can run a Propeller for roughly 10 hours.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,254
    edited 2012-05-30 02:31
    These are getting cheap too. Ten for $13 shipped. Probably not the 1200 mah claimed, but maybe worth a shot. Power your Scribbler or BoeBot with just TWO of these 3.7V babies. Li-Ion charger required.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-x-3-7V-1200mah-14500-AA-Li-ion-Lithium-Rechargeable-Battery-/251068691004?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item3a74dc323c
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,950
    edited 2012-05-30 07:05
    LIFEPO4 is the future.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Pcs-3-2V-1200mAh-123A-CR123A-16340-LiFePo4-LFP-Rechargeable-battery-Ultracell-/150823210725?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item231dc38ee5

    Rechargeable 2000 times.
    Fully charged in 30 minutes,
    Can handle very high current peaks.
    No heavy-metals.
    No explosions

    Here is a charging ic: (simple rules to lifepo4 is: never below 2,.2v and never higher than 3.65v)
    http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Microchip-Technology/MCP73123-22SI-MF/?qs=E6wAi2XWqcMqq2JIuuGEkYadBjEA7JSociTfMM1zDwg%3d
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-05-30 07:12
    Loopy Byteloose wrote: »
    Just think, one battery, no regulator can run a Propeller for roughly 10 hours.

    A full charged Li-Ion is about 4.2V. Do you use a diode between the battery and the Prop?

    BTW, I just purchased a set of 10 from erco' eBay link.
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-05-30 07:22
    tonyp12 wrote: »
    LIFEPO4 is the future.
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Pcs-3-2V-1200mAh-123A-CR123A-16340-LiFePo4-LFP-Rechargeable-battery-Ultracell-/150823210725?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item231dc38ee5

    Rechargeable 2000 times.
    Fully charged in 30 minutes,
    Can handle very high current peaks.
    No heavy-metals.
    No explosions

    Here is a charging ic: (simple rules to lifepo4 is: never below 2,.2v and never higher than 3.65v)
    http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Microchip-Technology/MCP73123-22SI-MF/?qs=E6wAi2XWqcMqq2JIuuGEkYadBjEA7JSociTfMM1zDwg%3d

    Tony, These look interesting.

    Have you every used these batteries and the charger?

    What's the battery's max voltage?

    How would you suggest powering a Prop from it?
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2012-05-30 07:53
    Inserting a diode or two would not hurt, though I suspect that the Propeller would survive 4.2 volts.

    One option is to use a tiny bridge rectifier to have two diode drops and to not have to worry about correct polarity at the battery mains.

    The fact that lithium batteries charge so quickly is really quite wonderful. NiCads are slow. Lead Acid is slow.

    I see my last post was in December and the truth is I have yet to fully explore these. I was thinking of actually powering an R/C airplane with brushless motor, but I've yet to finish building the plane. All the parts are here, I just have to get to it.
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-05-30 08:05
    Loopy Byteloose wrote: »
    I was thinking of actually powering an R/C airplane with brushless motor, but I've yet to finish building the plane.

    Thanks for the sugguestions about a rectifier.

    I think one reason LiPos are so popular with R/C aircraft is they lack the metal can of a Li-Ion so weigh less. I also think AA size might not be the best size for R/C aircraft because of the can of the battery is likely a larger percent of its weight than sub-C cells (I'm thinking of surface area vs volume). These should still have a much better energy density than any of the old NiCd packs.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,254
    edited 2012-05-30 09:10
    Duane Degn wrote: »
    BTW, I just purchased a set of 10 from erco's eBay link.

    Silly Duane. He took the bait AGAIN. :)
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2012-05-30 10:08
    The LiFePO4's are good (with the right charger) as their nominal voltage is 3.2V, compared to 3.7V of traditional LiPo. So even fully charged they work well with 3.3V systems. The problem is many of the ones you can readily buy have a low capacity -- in the neighborhood of 300 to 400 mA, and are intended for solar applications. Be careful what you're getting, and read labels thoroughly. They are safer than LiPo, can be recharged more times, but they don't have the energy density of traditional LIon cells.

    -- Gordon
  • Tracy AllenTracy Allen Posts: 6,656
    edited 2012-05-30 11:44
    I like dealing with http://www.batteryspace.com/, partly because of the wide selection of cell sizes and packs they have available, and partly because their office is a local will-call here.

    There is a lot of information on their site, for example,
    LiFePO4 at 120 Wh/kg
    LiCoO2 at 200 Wh/kg
    Li-poly at 160 Wh/kg
    Pb-acid at 35 Wh/kg
    NiMH at 80 Wh/kg
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-07-04 00:07
    erco wrote: »
    These are getting cheap too. Ten for $13 shipped. Probably not the 1200 mah claimed, but maybe worth a shot. Power your Scribbler or BoeBot with just TWO of these 3.7V babies. Li-Ion charger required.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-x-3-7V-1200mah-14500-AA-Li-ion-Lithium-Rechargeable-Battery-/251068691004?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item3a74dc323c

    I received the Li-Ion cells from erco's ebay source a few weeks ago and today I received these below.:

    attachment.php?attachmentid=93947&d=1341382459

    They look like batteries, but they're not.

    They have zero volts across their terminals and very low resistance from one terminal to the other. I think they are just empty metal shells.

    One of these "cooloop" cells weigh 4.6g. An "eneloop" AA cell weighs 26.0g.

    I think these were sent by the same people selling the Li-Ion cells.

    It occurred to me, these could be used with the Li-Ion cells to lower the voltage when using a multi-cell battery holder. If one had a three cell battery holder and used one Li-Ion cell and two "cooloop" cells, then the voltage would be pretty close to what one would get from using three NiMH cells.

    Did any of you purchase batteries from the ebay item erco's linked to? If so, did you also received these battery holders with fake shunt cells?

    Edit: This was not a rip off. The seller went out of their way to make it possible to use the Li-Ion sells in consumer goods. See erco's post #18 for clarification.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,254
    edited 2012-07-04 00:47
    Yes. they had previously emailed that they were going to send them to avoid safety issues from too much voltage. I thought that was very responsible for a Chinese seller.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2012-07-04 02:28
    Look like batteries, but are empty. Any one want to buy some fake TO-3 power transistors. My local retailer won't accept my return - even the Motorola emblem is a generic M, not the 'bat winged' logo and the lable is 90 degrees from the genuine.

    There are some very weird fakes about. Audio electrolytic capacitors that actually have a smaller out of spec capacitor inside the larger's case.

    I don't use E-Bay and try to return what I buy over the counter so as to let them know that they are not buying from the right kind of people.

    BTW, lithium batteries that have less that the appropriate voltage, do short circuit. Could it be that they just sent you defective batteries?

    And, never use a new lithium rechargeable without first charging. If you drive the battery too low, you have destroyed it.

    Sure, they may be dummy batteries. But it is still a cheat, isn't it?

    Generally, reputable electronic parts retailers use battery sales to bring them repeat customers. Radio Shack has for years. They won't sell bad quality batteries as unhappy customers don't return. It is similar to a camera store selling bad photographic film or a donut shop with lousy coffee.
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-07-04 10:13
    erco wrote: »
    Yes. they had previously emailed that they were going to send them to avoid safety issues from too much voltage. I thought that was very responsible for a Chinese seller.

    I read one email from the seller cautioning against using the Li-Ion in consumer goods since the voltage would be too high. They also sent a second email which I assumed said the same thing and I didn't read it.

    Now I think the second email was to to tell me these battery spacers where on their way.
    Loopy Byteloose wrote: »
    BTW, lithium batteries that have less that the appropriate voltage, do short circuit. Could it be that they just sent you defective batteries?


    These batteries are so light weight, they're obviously hollow inside. I'm sure they're not defective batteries.

    Loopy Byteloose wrote: »
    Sure, they may be dummy batteries. But it is still a cheat, isn't it?


    I don't follow you. I don't think it's a cheat.

    I purchased Li-Ion batteries that are AA size. The ebay page made it clear the voltage of these batteries were too high to use with normal electronics equipment.

    I plan to use my batteries in custom projects and I have a lot of AA battery holders so it's easier to me to use AA sized Li-Ion cells than the other sizes.

    The seller not only went out of their way to remind me of the danger of using these batteries in normal equipment but went the extra mile and shipped these blank cells so we can better match the correct voltage if we choose to use them with consumer equipment.

    Each cell has a "Do Not Charge" warning on it. I also think the battery cases are pretty cool.

    I don't see this as a cheat at all. I'd go out of my way to buy from this seller again. They seem very conscientious.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,254
    edited 2012-07-04 10:25
    Whoa, fellas. For clarity, please allow me to repeat.

    There is no problem.

    There is no scam.

    There is no conspiracy.

    No one is selling empty batteries.

    This is a particularly great thing from an unusally responsible Ebay seller, freedom345. The seller from whom Duane and I bought ten (10) 14500 batteries shipped them to us in fine style. No problems. Nice batteries delivered in a timely fashion. That could have been the end of it, all parties happy. Then shortly thereafter, the seller sent this email:

    Hi.
    Dear buyer, thank you for purchasing our products.
    I must remind, because it is 3.7V AA Li-ion battery, ordinary electrical using a two 1.2V or 1.5V AA battery. If you use two 3.7V Li-ion battery will damage the electrical, Be sure to look at the voltage of the electrical appliances before use.

    Thanks & Best regards

    - freedom345

    Then a while later, the seller sent this email:

    Hi.
    Dear friends, thanks for purchase.
    In most cases, this battery can only use 1pcs, another battery tube instead, if use 2pcs 3.7V Li-ion battery, may damage the electrical, we will send the same number battery tube to you immediately by free.

    Thanks& Best regards

    - freedom345

    So unsolicited and at his own expense, the seller shipped a package of ten (10) battery tubes (shunts), one for each battery purchased. So you could use one battery and one shunt in place of two AA batteries. Not only that, but they sent them inside some lovely polyethylene battery cases, three cases that hold 4 batteries each. Especially wonderful for storing charged batteries. Mind you, we didn't pay a penny for any of this.

    Now how is that a bad thing? I think I'll order another set of ten batteries just to support this fantastic and responsible seller.

    Plugging away, here he is: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=251100046291

    Edit: Duane beat me to it. DEGN! (Newman!)
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2012-07-04 10:37
    I understand now -- they were selling regular Lithium and providing for safety in situations that you might try to replace the Alkaline AA cells, you need 'dummy batteries' and that was what you wanted.

    r/c airplane users used to buy 'dummy AA batteries' so that they could use regular AA alkaline batteries instead of NiCad AA batteries in the transmitter. HAM radios have done similar things.

    One point that is important.

    If you build something that demands quite a bit of discharge, you need to shut down the battery before it gets too low. If you have a separate charger, that may be an issue. I have some 4-wire 3.3volt low-dropout regulators and the 4th wire shuts down the regulator. It can be wired to create a shut off threshold.

    Not exactly sure what to do if no regulator is used.
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-07-04 10:38
    I think the miss-understanding arose by my calling them "fake" cells.

    I completely agree with erco (on this topic), this seller went out of his way and at his own expense to send these shunt cells so those who purchased the Li-Ion batteries could use them with normal devices.

    I apologize if I made it appear I was being ripped off.
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-07-04 10:55
    Loopy Byteloose wrote: »
    If you build something that demands quite a bit of discharge, you need to shut down the battery before it gets too low.

    I accidentally left my RC transmitter on over night not long ago. The transmitter was being power by a 3-cell LiPo. When I noticed what I had done the next day, it was too late. One of the LiPo cells is now dead and wont take a charge.

    I now use one of these on any LiPo pack I have plugged into anything.

    voltalarm-18987.jpg

    These are very loud so I'll should hear it from anywhere in the house. I think it's loud enough to wake me up.

    They only cost $1.92. Hopefully, they'll keep me from ruining any more LiPo cells.

    I also like to use the battery monitor erco had sent me.

    GT-BMON6.jpg


    Since receiving erco's gift, I've purchased several more.

    The picture is of the HobbyKing version. They're not as cool as the red PCB version erco sent me, but they work fine and are cheap ($1.96) (I think they're even less expensive from ebay).
    voltalarm-18987.jpg
    46K
    GT-BMON6.jpg
    565 x 393 - 50K
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,254
    edited 2012-07-04 10:55
    I just sent a nice "thank you" email to the seller. :)
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2012-07-04 10:57
    The term 'fake' did not make it clear, but no harm done. I jumped to a conclusion and apologize if I offended anyone, including the vendor.

    These are NOT exactly the same length as AA cells and may not fit in the battery holder if you are attempting to just replace conventional AA cells with half as many Lithium. I have had to work hard to squeeze then in a normal AA holder and I have yet to see a special holder just for them.
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-07-04 11:27
    Loopy Byteloose wrote: »
    The term 'fake' did not make it clear, but no harm done. I jumped to a conclusion and apologize if I offended anyone, including the vendor.

    These are NOT exactly the same length as AA cells and may not fit in the battery holder if you are attempting to just replace conventional AA cells with half as many Lithium. I have had to work hard to squeeze then in a normal AA holder and I have yet to see a special holder just for them.

    No offence here.

    I hadn't noticed the extra length on these cells. You're right they are longer than other AA cells.

    I grabbed a few cells I had near by and measured them.

    Here are the results:
    Brand & Chemistry  Diameter  Length
___________________________________
UltraFire Li-Ion   14.1mm    50.7mm
Kirkland Alkaline  14.1mm    50.3mm
Energizer Alkaline 14.1mm    50.1mm
Energizer NiMH     14.2mm    50.2mm
Duracell NiMH      14.2mm    50.2mm
eneloop NiMH       14.2mm    50.2mm
cooloop shunt      14.0mm    49.9mm

    These Li-Ion cells are about half a millimeter longer than most of the other AA cells I measured.

    I've previously noticed how many rechargable batteries are a little wider than alkaline cells. I have an 8-cell holder that fits inside my RC transmitter when the holder is full of alkaline cells but it doesn't fit when I use recharable cells.

    I hope the extra length of these Li-Ion cells doesn't cause too much trouble for those of us using them with normal AA holders.

    Thanks for the heads up about it.
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,254
    edited 2012-07-04 11:36
    Duane: Didja get some mad July 4 sparkz when you put your metal calipers across the batteries? :)
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-07-04 12:15
    erco wrote: »
    Duane: Didja get some mad July 4 sparkz when you put your metal calipers across the batteries? :)

    I'm insulted, you think I'd be so dumb.

    I only used metal calipers on the first battery. After that,

    I used a set of plastic calipers to measure the batteries.

    And yes, I did get some pretty good sparks.:tongue:
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2012-07-04 13:48
    So the shunts are true AA, I had suspected that as they have been around for ages.

    I have been looking into shut off circuitry for a low voltage and apparently a MOSfet can be controlled by a good reference voltage and a voltage divider circuit to do the job. But it also seems many of the battery vendors have boards that do the same thing rather cheaply.

    See RSJC in the thread linked to below for what I suspect is a best circuit.
    http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects-designs-and-technical-stuff/li-ion-battery-low-voltage-cut-off-circuit-needed-for-project/
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2012-07-04 14:06
    What are you guys using for chargers?
  • ercoerco Posts: 20,254
    edited 2012-07-04 19:07
    I have two like this for individual charging. A pain to R&R cells, but cheap and in charges all sizes. http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-RCR123A-Lithium-Li-ion-NI-MH-AA-AAA-18650-14500-Intelligent-Battery-Charger-/251097680215?pt=Battery_Chargers&hash=item3a76968957
  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2012-07-04 20:30
    Publison wrote: »
    What are you guys using for chargers?

    After reading this artcle, I've decided it should be safe to use my LiPo charger to charge Li-Ion cells. I think these Li-Ion cells should probably be charged at a lower current than the usual 1C. The article says they should be charged at 0.8C or less.

    I'll probably use .6C for these batteries. 0.6 * 1200mA = 720mA. So I'll set my charger to 720mA charge current.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2012-07-05 03:02
    I use a charger for both 14500s and 18650s that is sold in Taiwan. It takes two cells at a time.

    In theory a LiFEPO4 charget should work with the LiMnO2 chemistry of what you term "Lithium Ion" charger, but you would definitively get less of a charge. Peak charge will be to something like 3.9V rather than 4.2V. The rate of charge may be slower as well.

    Parallax's 18650 is a charger and battery holder system. That simplifies battery management as I still haven't build anything to shut down a low battery. I would hate to waste good new Lithium batteries by an over-discharge on the first round of use.

    In some cases, the microcontroller can monitor and shut down the battery, but not always.
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