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Bearings, cost, and skimping — Parallax Forums

Bearings, cost, and skimping

photomankcphotomankc Posts: 943
edited 2012-06-21 14:28 in Robotics
I'm in the process of building up a drive system from scratch around a couple of high-torque NEMA 17 steppers. The idea was to use a small V-Belt drive to provide a boost in torque so I could use larger wheels and get up off the floor a bit. I have a 4:1 reduction going with an intermediate pully in addion to the drive and wheel pulleys. I'm machining all the parts myself and have the pulleys made. I wanted the ends of the wheel and intermeadiate pulley to hang free. Looking at bearings it's become clear that even cheap ones if doubled up on the fixed end of each shaft are going to add up to a lot of cost.

Can I get away with simple *single* radial ball bearings on each shaft in a lightly loaded drive system like this? The weight would not be more than a few Lbs. It's not going to be giving my kid piggy back rides or anything. I've selected LiPo batteries to get lots of juice for the steppers at a low weight. I anticipate the total weght would not exceed 6 - 8Lbs in the end. I know that I can keep the loads on the pulleys light by not pulling the belt super tight. The steppers would stall long before the belt slipped. I just don't want to make a bearing eating machine in addition to a normal money eating robot.

Keeping it to a single bearing bored hole also keeps the complexity of the bracket to hold the whole thing down.

Comments

  • Duane DegnDuane Degn Posts: 10,588
    edited 2011-12-02 08:30
    photomankc,

    I'm no expert on bearings. I was surprised to see you think they cost a lot, but I have only used bearings up to 5mm. I see as soon as the bearings get larger, the price goes up a lot.

    What is the diameter of your axle? I think if you could use an axle the same size skateboards use, the price of the bearings would be a lot less.

    I hope you post pictures of your robot.
  • LeonLeon Posts: 7,620
    edited 2011-12-02 08:34
    Roller blade skate bearings are cheap, and easy to obtain. The quality isn't particularly good, but should be adequate.
  • photomankcphotomankc Posts: 943
    edited 2011-12-02 09:00
    Duane Degn wrote: »
    photomankc,

    I'm no expert on bearings. I was surprised to see you think they cost a lot, but I have only used bearings up to 5mm. I see as soon as the bearings get larger, the price goes up a lot.

    What is the diameter of your axle? I think if you could use an axle the same size skateboards use, the price of the bearings would be a lot less.

    I hope you post pictures of your robot.

    The OD on those is big and would tend to expand the size of an already large bracket. The 8mm bore is also a bit larger than the stock I was planning to use but I could look at how difficult it would be to alter the desing to use them as that beats the $9 per bearing cost of the local ones I sampled.

    Right now there is only a 3D model growing up around the drive system. It uses 1" --> [2":1"] --> 2" v-belt pulleys and 2L v-belts. Wheels are 90mm Pololu wheels that were on sale over Thanksgiving. I'll post up a render of the model later. I was just hoping that to reduce the complexity I could live on 1 bearing per shaft with each only seeing a few lbs of moment loads vs fully supporting at two points.
  • GordonMcCombGordonMcComb Posts: 3,366
    edited 2011-12-02 09:36
    By its nature V-belt drives place a lot of radial stress on axles. You'd be better off with a cogged belt, or even a small #25 chain, so that you don't have to tighten the belt so much to ensure torque transfer.

    The steppers will already have bearings in them (at least they should), so it comes down to the pillow block or whatever you're machining for the wheel axles. You can get bearings surplus for just a couple dollars each. You need to go online and not buy from local shops like Graingers (or whatever). Rollerblade/rollerskate bearings are okay, and yes they're cheap, but they tend to sized in metric, so keep that in mind when matching to other components. One of my usual haunts for these is American Science & Surplus. See if they have anything you can use: http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm/subsection/19. You might also try H&R and Surplus Center. You can find these with a Web search

    I don't think the 90mm Pololu wheels are designed for a 5-6 pound robot. I've got them on a 2 pound robot, and that's about as much stress as I'd want to put on them. They're just plastic with five fairly fine spokes from the hub. I don't think they'll hold up long with that weight.

    -- Gordon
  • photomankcphotomankc Posts: 943
    edited 2011-12-02 10:24
    The wheels were largely just to play. I can make wheels with no problem though adding tires can be difficult which was my half-hearted idea behind getting the wheels since they came with tires, but I see now they are really soft. If the drive works at all I can look making an AL replacement wheel but I'm still not sure how to get tires for such things. 3.5 to 4.5" wheels seem harder to find. Bigger or smaller is easy but that's about the sweet spot for me between too-little torque and a low-slow mover. The early bot is not going to weigh much more than the steppers and drive units and a few circuit boards. I may be totally over-estimating anyway but point taken on the wheels. I know that by heading in this direction I'm sure to be rebuilding it at some point but I really wanted to try and make my own parts where I can. Gotta justify that mill and lathe.... and grinder...... and drill press..... and chop saw. It's an illness.

    V-Belts were mainly to test it all out, they are simple to make on the lathe. I can later go to a cogged belt if it's worth the time to CNC out some timing pulleys. I think I may just have to do as you say and design to what I can find that's inexpensive. 8 bearings at $10 is too much but I think it would be best to have two for each of the two shafts. I knew the motor had it's own bearing and they are usually fairly decent so it has it's own support.
  • TtailspinTtailspin Posts: 1,326
    edited 2011-12-02 10:32
    Time is money, so you'll want to get started right away with this...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babbitt_(metal)

    Actually, I was wondering if maybe an old school Bronze bushing would work for you?
    What RPM's are you expecting?
    I only ask because cutting cost and skimping is a specialty of mine...:)

    -Tommy
  • photomankcphotomankc Posts: 943
    edited 2011-12-02 11:11
    A bronze bushing is definately on the list of possibles for extra support. RPM at the intermediate shaft would top out around 300 RPM and then at the wheel about 150. Running the stepper past 600RPM has so little torque it's useless. The more normal speeds would be stepper at about 300 / 150 / 75 and there it's got a good bit of torque. I calculated about 75oz/in on a 3.5" wheel so about 150 for both and a ~1 FPS speed.

    The babbit bearing is..... interesting.
  • TtailspinTtailspin Posts: 1,326
    edited 2011-12-02 11:47
    Yeah, Babbit bearings are difficult and involves molten metal(appealing to some), and you would have to give a tinkers dam...

    The Bronze bushing could be cut into two or more bushings, for even more thriftiness,
    and just regular washers for thrust bearings, or use a couple of layers of plastic packaging, for the ultimate in cheap.

    At those RPM's you could go really cheap and try copper tubing and a well fit bolt,
    I could suggest Nylon stand-offs too, but the weight could be to much if the Nylon was not thick enough.
    They do make aluminum stand-offs, but whats the fun in buying those? when you could make your own...:thumb:

    -Tommy
  • photomankcphotomankc Posts: 943
    edited 2011-12-02 13:58
    Oh thanks for the reminder Duane for the reminder on VXB.com. I had forgotten about them from the CNC build. I think that just solved the cost issue. The 6x19x6 bearing is a perfect match for what I already obtained locally and it $1. I will need to redesign the bearing housings to accomdate 2 bearings. At $1 per there is no good reason not to.

    I also found the BaneBot wheels which are inexpensive and in the right size ranges. I could add a little more reduction to make up for slightly larger wheel.
  • photomankcphotomankc Posts: 943
    edited 2011-12-02 21:34
    DriveModel20111202.JPG


    There's the state of the design as of now.
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  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2011-12-03 04:12
    Bronze bears are usually in consumer junk. Babbit bearings were in your 1951 Chevy's 235 engine and earlier cars.

    Simply, if your ball bearings require a bigger axel, it will provide an opportunity to design an axel that will carry substantially more payload. In general, electric motors are intended to provide torque and not carry the weight of a payload.
  • photomankcphotomankc Posts: 943
    edited 2011-12-04 08:20
    Double Bearing Revision A.jpg
    Double Bearing Revision B.jpg
    Double Bearing Revision C.jpg


    Alright, I spent the day yesterday going back through and adjusting the design to accomodate double bearings on the wheel shaft and the intermediate pulley shaft as well. Still have a few modifications to make since that pushed the wheel outward a little but I wanted to keep any overhang from the bearings to the wheel pulley as short as possible so I placed the wheel bearings out front. Thanks for the suggestions. The bearing blocks are the transparent parts in the image. I'll order my bearings next week and get started on machining the rest of the parts for version 1. I just realized I had Gordon who wrote the book answering in my thread! I love this place.
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  • gnategnate Posts: 8
    edited 2012-06-21 14:28
    For small high speed bearings, I've used router bearings from Grizzly: http://www.grizzly.com/catalog/2012/Main/500
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