Suggestions for benchtop manual lathe, American or European made?

Ken Gracey

Hey all,

Spent some time last night browsing the internet for manual lathes. The kinds of things I typically do are turn standoffs, make smaller robot parts (Penguin), engine/alternator couplings (up to 2" in diameter), and threading. Material is almost all aluminum and occasionally a bit of plastic, but never steel. I am not interested in renovating a Chinese-made lathe. The budget should be between $1-4K. These are the machines I've looked at:

Wabeco D4000 (huge lead time, not stocked in the USA, very expensive)
Prazi SD300 (not stocked in the USA)
South Bend (smallest machine now made in Taiwan, but quite expensive)
Taig (fascinating, small, and interesting)
Sherline (capable, but too small)

I've owned a Prazi SD300 before and it fit my needs perfectly, but it was sold to purchase a small CNC lathe.

Ideal work envelope is about 4" diameter and about 10" length, nothing larger. Must be able to install DRO and do manual threading. Potential for CNC conversion is great. Acme lead screw is probably okay, but ballscrew is preferred.

Am I on a hopeless hunt? Should I recruit erco? Are there other brands one might recommend?

Thanks,

Ken Gracey

Leon

That might be too big for the Taig, and you can't cut threads with the standard machine. You could ask on the Taig Yahoo group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/taigtools/

Ken Gracey

Thanks Leon. I've joined just to take a look at the types of questions people ask and what kinds of work they are doing with the Taig.

Leon

Ken,

I just checked the spec., and 4" diameter Al should be OK. I haven't tried anything that big on mine, though.

Ken Gracey

Leon, on your Taig? Do you have one of these too?

Before I go to the YahooGroup forum and ask a Taig owner, maybe you can tell me if you experience any chatter turning parts of an inch or two.

And have you used any type of coolant on this open setup, misting or otherwise?

Post a photo or two?

Leon

I don't use it very much, but I've not had any problems with 1" diameter turning. I have some Rocol lubricant in a container and just apply a small amount of that when it's needed.

I've got most of the ancillaries, such as three- and four-jaw chucks, milling attachment, etc. Here is my setup: http://webspace.webring.com/people/jl/leon_heller/taig.html

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

Ken,

I just talked to a friend of mine who makes violin bows. He and a fellow bowmaker recently acquired an Enco benchtop metal lathe for use in their jointly-run bow shop. To look at it, you'd think it's much too large for the fussy little precision work they do. But he explained that it's the size, power, and heft that makes small, precision work possible. He said they're very happy with it and that backlash and chatter are virtually non-existent. I know Enco wasn't on your list for consideration; but, if you're interested, I'll get the model number when they open tomorrow. (My friend couldn't remember it offhand.)

-Phil

Ken Gracey

Hmm. Pretty interesting and I like the rubber feet and base you assembled. The top cross-slide is a must have for angles. Without CNC this kind of ability would become quickly frustrating, but it looks like you've got most of the lathe set up for fairly complete function. Clearly no way this can thread with that belt system, but I see the benefits of simplicity by elimination of the gears and pulleys. The small size is really neat since it can be stowed easily.

How about cutoff tools? They can be a real pain once the work piece begins to chatter. Would like to know if you've had reasonable success with cutoffs at a 1" diameter or so (like the base standoffs you turned).

I haven't searched the long list of Taig links to see if anybody has done any simple manual to CNC conversion of the lathes, though I've seen them for the mills. It would be a one-way trip to turn it into a little CNC project, but it could be a lot of fun with the Propeller. I'd probably like making a simple VGA-driven display that lets you enter the two-axis cut lengths and depths, plus the ability to do a taper from one point to another. It could get difficult fast [for me] and I wouldn't bother with G-codes. I guess that would be some type of programmable power-feed project. Think the Taig would be a good lathe to modify for this purpose? In this case I'd be interested in the project more than the end result, and having a good demonstration of the Propeller (using VGA and menus). What are your thoughts on such a conversion?

Thanks,

Ken Gracey

Ken Gracey

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) wrote: »

Ken,

I just talked to a friend of mine who makes violin bows. He and a fellow bowmaker recently acquired an Enco benchtop metal lathe for use in their jointly-run bow shop. To look at it, you'd think it's much too large for the fussy little precision work they do. But he explained that it's the size, power, and heft that makes small, precision work possible. He said they're very happy with it and that backlash and chatter are virtually non-existent. I know Enco wasn't on your list for consideration; but, if you're interested, I'll get the model number when they open tomorrow. (My friend couldn't remember it offhand.)

-Phil

Yes, I'm in agreement that larger machines can normally provide much more small-scale precision. Enco comes up on the list of machines I research. It's among the few Asian (Chinese?) manufactured machines I'd even consider. Yes, please get the model number of their favorite for me. That would be great.

Ken Gracey

Leon

Ken,

I've tried using cut-off tools, but can't get them to work properly for some reason. It's easier just to use a vice and a hacksaw.

That base plate came from Peatol, the UK Taig agent:

http://www.peatol.com/

Mr Peatol (Peter Morrison) gets them made especially. I much prefer it to the flimsy one sold by Taig themselves. He supplied the large GE 1/2 HP motor, he now sells a smaller one. He didn't realise that the original motor was 1/2 HP until I told him, he thought it was 1/4 HP. It's nice to have plenty of power, and it can be switched to a lower speed, which can be useful.

People have modified the Taig for screw-cutting, and it can be done with CNC, of course. Taps and dies can be used in many cases, on the lathe.

Ken Gracey

Cut-off tools are a test of the rigidity of a lathe in my [limited] experience. But even on my 300-lb Wabeco I had problems with cutoff; might as well just make it easy on one's self and throw the work towards the bandsaw (a tool where money is always well-spent!).

So fair enough. If I could squeeze another opinion out of you, read the post above about converting the Taig to something semi-automatic with steppers. Think it would make an interesting project?

Thank you Leon,

Ken Gracey

Leon

Simple CNC is something I keep meaning to try, the Taig is ideal for such projects. Many Taig group members have done it, and written it up. I forgot to mention Nick Carter's Taig web site:

http://www.cartertools.com/

You'll find a vast amount of useful stuff there.

I first used a lathe when I was about 13 years old, at school. I wasn't any good at woodwork, and they got a Myford ML7 metal lathe:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/myford-ml7/index.html

so I and a friend of mine asked if we could do metalwork instead. When I worked for Xerox Research (UK), we had an ML7 in our workshop, and I used to use that occasionally. It was a very nice lathe.

Ken Gracey

Thanks Leon. I'll do some more research on the Taig setup. I really like the small size of these lathes and the DIY setup for them. Looks like a lot of fun, and I think that it would make a great demo of a Propeller project. I can see a number of improvements I'd like to make to it upon opening the box. I'll have to figure out if that's what I had in mind when I caught this bug. As you hail from the land of British machinery I certainly appreciate the tips.

Ken Gracey

erco

Erco likes Enco.

I also love my little Unimat, even though I haven't used it in years. I have access to a variety of lathes at work in our machine shop, with all the goodies. Per PhiPi's Enco reco, it pays to buy a bit bigger than you initially anticipate.

And no, before anyone asks, my Unimat is not for sale. It's #2 in my "keep until dead" list, right behind the Corvair.

A bit off-topic: anyone ever use a Volstro rotary milling head like this?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Volstro-Rotary-Milling-Head-Bridgeport-Type-Milling-Machine-/110782774210?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19cb2afbc2

I used this on a huge Bridgeport mill to flycut & CC my Corvair 140's cylinder heads. An awesome tool, the right tool for just the right job.

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

erco,

You must have one of the older Unimat lathes, right? My bowmaker friend has a newer one, which he bought before they got the Enco, and he's not really too enthralled with it.

-Phil

erco

Yep, mine's 20 years old, one of the Unimat-SL classics.

Leon

This is the web site for anyone interested in classic machine tools:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/

prof_braino

I got this one Model #328-1308 when it was on sale for 999.00

http://www.use-enco.com/cgi/INSRIT?PMAKA=328-1308&PMPXNO=25221737&PARTPG=INLMK3

It is capable of way more than I assk of it.

curt66140

I also have the Taig lathe and their mill and love them both. They make a special reverse toolpost just for doing parting off work and I recently parted a 2 1/2 inch round aluminum bar with it with no problems. The main thing I've learned with the Taig tools is to not get in a hurry, take small cuts and you get great finishs on your parts. I just bought a Grizzly 10 X 22 lathe for larger work and so far I'm very happy with it also. I bought my mill from Nick Carter and he is great to work with, another good source is A2Z cnc, they have a large selection of both Taig made and aftermarket tooling for the lathe and mill.

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)

Ken,

'Just got back from my friend's bow shop. The lathe is not an Enco (Chinese), but Emco (Austrian). The model is a Compact 10, but my friend's associate said that the smaller Compact 8 is also very nice and would have been his first choice if he could have gotten one. The bad news is that the Compact 10 is no longer manufactured, and new Compact 8's exist only as Compact 8E's, which are made in China. However, it's still possible to obtain one of the Austrian lathes used. You just have to look around.

I took a look at their lathe. The main leadscrew is Acme, and the others are covered, so I couldn't tell what kind of threads they have. Turning the cranks revealed a silky-smooth action with very little (but not zero) backlash. If this sounds at all interesting, be sure to read the web reviews. The ones I've read -- at least for the '8 -- indicate some feature shortcomings.

-Phil

Ken Gracey

Thanks Phil, Leon, curt66140,& personal shopper erco.

My short-term needs will be met with a little Taig. I didn't buy this specifically for lathe machining since it's a micro-lathe, but to automate it with a Propeller as a nice demo. My needs for a slightly larger lathe will wait a while and may be met with a Hardinge HLV-H in the future. I think I am a hobbyist at heart.

Ken Gracey

jdolecki

Here is one in Florin Cal.

http://sacramento.craigslist.org/tls/2722429297.html

and for only 300 dollars

I know you said you were not intrested in modifying a cheap copy but as with any little inport machine you get what you pay for. Most people who are after precision .0025 and below just end up modifying it any ways which seem to be your long term intent (Cnc).

I had several little lathes and ever time i do something i'm left wishing for one a little bigger.

If you cruize the craistlist everyday the right one will pop up you just have to be presistant.

pjv

Hello Ken;

I have a coulple of EMCO Maximat V10P lathes....one quite a bit older than the other, and we have modified that one to be a linear motion bed for a one axis electric TIG welder. A really poor-man's cobbled "CNC" arrangement, but works well to give nice very smooth welds.

The other is still a proper lathe, but used very infrequently, as we have since (like 20 years ago) purchased a proper CNC lathe with an 8 station tool head. I'd say I was happy with the rigidity of these EMCO lathes, so I would reccommend them, although if I recall they were a bit higher in price than your budget plans. Especially when adding a 4 jaw chuck,dividing head, vertical milling head etc. all tolled closer to $8K by my old noggin.

Converting it to a full CNC motion would be quite a bit of work, but great as a hobby project. Although I wonder about the utility of that. If you don't have an automatic tool changer, then what was the point? An XY linear digital read-out (which we have added) pretty much covers what you need. Perhaps some simple Propeller based interface to that would make more sense than steppers or servos.

Anyhow, just some of my musings......

Cheers,

Peter (pjv)

LoopyByteloose

What would youall recommend for cutting plastic pulleys and gears. Years ago I had a Unimat which I deeply regret selling, even though I made a tidy profit.

It seems to me that every time I look at a potential robotics project, I need pulleys and gears. And going to the on-line catalogs of suppliers seems prohibitively expensive.

The advantage of plastic is that it is easy to work with these tiny lathes.

Skoorb

Here's a comparison chart for some of the Chinese mini-lathes... http://littlemachineshop.com/info/minilathe_compare.php

I bought the homier lathe and off the shelf improvements like a quick change tool post and DRO's. It's a pretty amazing machine for under $600 total investment. So much so that it now resides in a friends shop where he uses it for prototyping.

Kievlanin

Ken, sounds to me it is a lathe for ocasional use.
I am an engineer and I am working in manufacturing.
I will not suggest looking for a cheapest. China made is worry me, they are usually not presize and wobbly...
Europian made lathes are usually good. I remember Chech made TOSS, very nice lovely sturdy machine.
I used it to make 1mm threaded parts...

Get a good lathe and keep it forever!