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Ken just needs bigger motors...... — Parallax Forums

Ken just needs bigger motors......

FranklinFranklin Posts: 4,747
edited 2011-11-03 18:16 in General Discussion
http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2011/11/01/worlds-first-manned-flight-with-an-electric-multicopter/
Not sure I'd want to sit in the path of all those blades though.

Comments

  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2011-11-01 19:20
    That's really impressive. I mean, those blades and motors aren't really all that big! Is this the future of the flying car that we've been promised since the 1950's?

    -Phil
  • Beau SchwabeBeau Schwabe Posts: 6,568
    edited 2011-11-01 20:01
    Phil Pilgrim,

    The truth is, we have the technology right now, today for a flying car.... the reality is that nobody wants to pay for the cost of fuel to keep it in the air for more than 15 minutes at a time.
  • Peter KG6LSEPeter KG6LSE Posts: 1,383
    edited 2011-11-01 20:13
    Hey Ma.. can I borrow the celing fan ................................
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,401
    edited 2011-11-01 20:31
    Reporting for duty, Franklin! That's quite the contraption and yes, I'd like to build one. I'm not sure who we could fly around from Parallax, but we have a few smaller people in the kitting department who might do the job.

    Turnigy has a couple of really large motors - here's one:

    HXT80-100-A.jpg


    http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__5142__Turnigy_80_100_B_130Kv_Brushless_Outrunner_eq_70_55_.html

    The problem at these larger sizes is to find counter-rotating propellers.

    Also not sure about the total batteries required to get any amount of flight, but you'd be weighted down so much you couldn't move if the pilot wanted a ten minute flight. The e-volo guys you found above talk about a hybrid model where they use a gas engine for power. I don't think they'll be able to charge faster than they draw power, but it'll be fun to watch.

    Did you see the Chinese octocopter with gasoline engines? I think the pilot was using some sort of pull strings on the throttle. Very dangerous.

    Very interesting. Thanks for sharing!

    Ken Gracey

    P.S. I'm still trying to figure out if that big Turnigy motor above actually exists. . . .anybody know?
    510 x 425 - 59K
  • Matt GillilandMatt Gilliland Posts: 1,406
    edited 2011-11-01 20:43
    I'm not sure who we could fly around from Parallax,
    Definitely not me.
    I've seen too many Landing Gear Failures :tongue:
    -Matt
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2011-11-01 20:46
    Ken Gracey wrote:
    The problem at these larger sizes is to find counter-rotating propellers.
    Yes, but anyone who can afford to build one of those man-carriers probably also has a nice CNC mill that they can use to make their own propellers. Are there any open-source prop designs on the web that Parallax's CNC could replicate? (Parallax is in the Propeller business, after all! :) )

    With one of those contraptions you at least wouldn't need a camera and video link for POV piloting!

    -Phil
  • Ken GraceyKen Gracey Posts: 7,401
    edited 2011-11-01 20:58
    Definitely not me.
    I've seen too many Landing Gear Failures :tongue:
    -Matt

    You'd make a really good guinea pig since you're up for anything. Brings the idea of "taking one for the company" to a whole new level. We better straighten out our workmen's comp policy before we load you into such a contraption.

    I see you've been inside of the cyclone lately, or that you put Scott inside the cyclone. Maybe we could convert that tool to fly. Did you get it fixed, BTW? Did the hammer do the job?

    I'm ready to build a much larger quadcopter, thanks to Franklin. Please shield me from such posts in the future. This addiction is getting expensive to feed but it's better than golf or racing cars I guess.

    Ken Gracey
  • Dr_AculaDr_Acula Posts: 5,484
    edited 2011-11-01 21:26
    Ken said
    The problem at these larger sizes is to find counter-rotating propellers.

    Do you have to have counter rotating propellers? Just thinking if you have a long arm and you have two props on the end, side by side and counter rotating, the torque forces would be close to cancelling? Or not much different to the props being one above the other.

    And/or, you could always mount two props with separate motors one above the other. Costs a little extra weight in terms of mounting hardware but not much.

    It simplifies things does it not, if you don't have to have counter rotating props with hollow shafts etc (like on model helicopters).

    Which means, therefore, that we have removed the last remaining barrier to building this, and thus work must begin at once on this giant project! *grin*
    I'm ready to build a much larger quadcopter, thanks to Franklin. Please shield me from such posts in the future.

    Soon you will be able to fly over to Franklin's house and tell him that personally!
  • tonyp12tonyp12 Posts: 1,951
    edited 2011-11-01 21:39
    Definitely not me.
    I've seen too many Landing Gear Failures :tongue:
    -Matt

    They use a Pilates ball as landing gear, at least it's always deployed.
    Pilates%20Deluxe%20Kit.jpg
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2011-11-01 21:49
    Oh. I assumed that spherical thing was the battery compartment.

    -Phil
  • HumanoidoHumanoido Posts: 5,770
    edited 2011-11-01 23:09
    Knee pads and wrist guards are mandatory for flying this one.
    This appears to be a great accomplishment and will fit in with the future.
    As Beau implies, a light weight fuel cell is needed for longer flights.
    I see no craft protection for the pilot.
    But then it was the same at Kitty Hawk.
    The first flight always takes on risk.
  • bsnutbsnut Posts: 521
    edited 2011-11-02 00:44
    If Ken is looking for a crash test dummy I'm your man and make sure the big ball is attached as landing gear.
  • GadgetmanGadgetman Posts: 2,436
    edited 2011-11-02 04:49
    Regarding recharging with a gasoline engine, it doesn't have to be powerful enough to replaenish the batteries constantly.
    It just needs to be able to supply enough power that the batteries doesn't fully drain before the flight ends(if they do, the flight ends... )
    The engine delivers a set amount of power continuousy, and the peaks comes from batteries.
    Also, as this gasoline engine will be running at peak performance all the time, it can be optimised for that speed.

    It's just a question of deciding how long a flight-time is desired and the size/weight of the batteries, and you'll find how larg a gas engine you need.
    (It's the same principle as 'plug-in hybrids')
  • Dr_AculaDr_Acula Posts: 5,484
    edited 2011-11-02 05:01
    @Gadgetman, that is a very interesting thought.

    Certainly an internal combustion engine can support its own weight - just look at nitro powered helicopters. But for quadcopters, the mechanical linkages become impractical, and this is the modern world where you want computer (Parallax Propeller) controlled stability (the Propeller will hold bsnut's life in its hands!).

    http://www.rchelicopterfun.com/model-gas-engines.html 22cc for 2HP (?? 1500W but there will be losses along the way).

    I wonder if it is possible to find out the current consumption of Franklin's multicopter when it was flying?
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2011-11-02 12:31
    Fantastic. Now if they perfect those flouride batteries I could commute to work by air.
  • hover1hover1 Posts: 1,929
    edited 2011-11-02 13:07
    Ken Gracey wrote: »
    Reporting for duty, Franklin! That's quite the contraption and yes, I'd like to build one. I'm not sure who we could fly around from Parallax, but we have a few smaller people in the kitting department who might do the job.

    Turnigy has a couple of really large motors - here's one:

    HXT80-100-A.jpg


    http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__5142__Turnigy_80_100_B_130Kv_Brushless_Outrunner_eq_70_55_.html

    The problem at these larger sizes is to find counter-rotating propellers.

    Also not sure about the total batteries required to get any amount of flight, but you'd be weighted down so much you couldn't move if the pilot wanted a ten minute flight. The e-volo guys you found above talk about a hybrid model where they use a gas engine for power. I don't think they'll be able to charge faster than they draw power, but it'll be fun to watch.

    Did you see the Chinese octocopter with gasoline engines? I think the pilot was using some sort of pull strings on the throttle. Very dangerous.

    Very interesting. Thanks for sharing!

    Ken Gracey

    P.S. I'm still trying to figure out if that big Turnigy motor above actually exists. . . .anybody know?

    Ken,

    I believe you find two of them on this craft.
    Bob Electric #2.png
    Bob Electric.png


    One for lift and one for thrust.

    2:1 reduction on thrust motor. I'm not sure on the lift.


    More info here:

    http://www.hovercraft.com/content/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=30_247


    Cheers,

    Jim
    93 x 62 - 12K
    533 x 424 - 462K
  • ajwardajward Posts: 1,130
    edited 2011-11-02 16:18
    Franklin wrote: »
    http://www.adafruit.com/blog/2011/11/01/worlds-first-manned-flight-with-an-electric-multicopter/
    Not sure I'd want to sit in the path of all those blades though.

    Ummm... I have a bad feeling about that! I just see mincing, chopping and slicing. Brrrrr....

    Amanda
  • lanternfishlanternfish Posts: 366
    edited 2011-11-03 00:43
    Ken Gracey wrote: »
    Reporting for duty, Franklin! That's quite the contraption .....

    Did you see the Chinese octocopter with gasoline engines? I think the pilot was using some sort of pull strings on the throttle. Very dangerous. ....

    You are a master of understatement. Got to give him credit though - very much in the spirit of some of the earliest attempts at powered flight!
  • Beau SchwabeBeau Schwabe Posts: 6,568
    edited 2011-11-03 08:41
    What kind of force could a single electric motor produce? Some empirical testing is in order first.

    As far as I can tell, the guy is using 16 motors... assuming the guy plus his equip weighs approx 300-400 pounds , that's roughly 20-25 pounds of force per motor.

    That's not to mention ground effects that initially have a reverse effect when taking off... <-- Basically if air is being forced in one direction(down) and has nowhere to go but to radiate outward in all directions, this 'ground effect' acts like a wing and causes lift, only in this case the wing IS the ground.

    Here is a citation of the above phenomenon ... try it , it works...
    http://www.seykota.com/rm/spool_card/spool_card.htm
  • User NameUser Name Posts: 1,451
    edited 2011-11-03 10:49
    I'm stunned by the accessibility of this approach to human flight. My kids and I figured out that we've already got the big gray ball (ours is by Golds Gym), a slew of large and efficient brushless outrunner motors, and a variety of angular rate sensors. We're just a few LiPos and ESCs short of take-off. And some Propeller code. My stringbean 11-year-old daughter volunteered to be the test pilot.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2011-11-03 17:31
    Ground effects (such as downdrafts) are a very big deal in helicopters, especially near buildings and mountain sides. So there should be a rather large margin to overcome them.

    Personally, I would prefer NOT to be sitting on the same plane as all those propellers. I'd much rather hang below all the rotating gear in a manner similar to a traditional helicopter. This also offers a more stable platform as the center of gravity is much lower than the center of lift. But it does indicate that the landing gear would require a redesign.

    Being the first has its hazards, as even the Wright brothers managed to kill their first Army test pilot.

    I absolutely love the fact that the Parallax Propeller is so well suited for this form of flight - nothing else provides such simple elegant control of four motors or even larger multiples.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2011-11-03 18:16
    BTW, if there is a human on board, a certain amount of redundancy is an absolute MUST. A Plan A without a Plan B is not acceptable.

    I suppose that might mean redundant ESCs and a redundant motor control system. It also means automatic landing on low power. These devices do NOT have auto-gyration as a fall back option. One might even include an ultralight parachute deployment system (uses an explosive charge) to be deployed if there is a complete electrical shutdown.

    Testing should include how to manage a safe landing with at least one of the motors in failure mode (is that really possible?).

    http://www.usairborne.com/brs_parachute.htm

    You don't have a glide path - remember that.
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