Fluoride battery promises 10x energy density of Li-Ion

Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) · 2011-10-25 10:22

Here's an abstract:

http://www.dailytech.com/Researchers+Create+Fluoride+Battery+Look+to+Replace+Lithiumion+Technology/article23093.htm

-Phil

[Inserts electrodes into tube of Crest. Doesn't get a reading. Concludes article is bunk.]

erco · 2011-10-25 10:25

Colgate says MFP means maximum flouride protection, but it turns out to be maximum flouride power...

mindrobots · 2011-10-25 10:27

Isn't this the follow-on green energy conspiracy to fluoridated water??

Heater. · 2011-10-25 10:40

Of course, flouride in the water. That's how I managed to turn a small motor connected to small zinc and copper plates immersed in south of England tap water back in the late 70's.
We used to drink that stuff.

Martin_H · 2011-10-25 10:57

It would have to be Fluorine wouldn't it, it's always Fluorine. Fluorine is a misfit of an element and my least favorite on the periodic table. Fluorine has one of the lowest abundances of the light elements. The nucleosynthesis scientists claim that it is not in any of the normal chains of element synthesis, so it is mystery where the stuff comes from in the first place. To top it off it has the gall to be the most reactive of all elements, so no chemical substance can free it from any of its compounds! But then it has the audacity to be useful and rare at the same time!

Fluorite glass, fluoride toothpaste, uranium hexafluorine, fluorocarbons, and now batteries. It would have to be Fluorine wouldn't it, it's always Fluorine. I'd swear but this is a family oriented forum.

PS Bismuth is my favorite element. Its radioactive, but not in a pushy way like Polonium. It's content to decay with a half life greater than the current age of the universe, and it settles my stomach after thinking about Fluorine.

LoopyByteloose · 2011-10-25 11:13

I okay, I'll bite (pun intended). If Fluoride can offer 10x the stored energy of Lithium batteries, doesn't that mean that they produce 10x the fire ball when their containment fails due to a short or overcharging?

The chemistry might make great batteries for hearing aids, but in an electric car or a laptop you may have some nasty failure modes.

Heater. · 2011-10-25 11:29

Loopy,
Don't all concentrations of energy have nasty failure modes? Gasoline, hydrogen, steam boilers, springs etc etc.
We just have to learn how to keep things under control. Recently I read an old book about the fascinating history of steam boiler explosions. Think 1800 steam power. It took a long time to learn how to make them safe.

Heater. · 2011-10-25 11:37

Martin_H,
Never in my life have ever heard anyone so passionate about elements. Their elemental loves and hates.
This is going to keep me awake all night pondering which elements are on my top 10 list.

Martin Hodge · 2011-10-25 12:29

God, I love Stanley Kubrick!

>>Flouride<<

Martin_H · 2011-10-25 12:34

Heater. wrote: »

Martin_H,
Never in my life have ever heard anyone so passionate about elements. Their elemental loves and hates.
This is going to keep me awake all night pondering which elements are on my top 10 list.

While my rant contained some humor and hyperbole. I am interested in the elements as each has a story behind it. Where it came from, where it goes to, and what we use it for. The element stories are like 112 little novels.

mindrobots · 2011-10-25 12:36

Martin_H wrote: »

It would have to be Fluorine wouldn't it, it's always Fluorine. Fluorine is a misfit of an element and my least favorite on the periodic table. Fluorine has one of the lowest abundances of the light elements. The nucleosynthesis scientists claim that it is not in any of the normal chains of element synthesis, so it is mystery where the stuff comes from in the first place. To top it off it has the gall to be the most reactive of all elements, so no chemical substance can free it from any of its compounds! But then it has the audacity to be useful and rare at the same time!

Fluorite glass, fluoride toothpaste, uranium hexafluorine, fluorocarbons, and now batteries. It would have to be Fluorine wouldn't it, it's always Fluorine. I'd swear but this is a family oriented forum.

PS Bismuth is my favorite element. Its radioactive, but not in a pushy way like Polonium. It's content to decay with a half life greater than the current age of the universe, and it settles my stomach after thinking about Fluorine.

This is extremely eloquent and touching! It's talk like this that can start a movement!!

{I am not a member or a paid spokesman for the Free Fluorine Foundation.}

Ravenkallen · 2011-10-25 14:16

Now i know why i don't use fluoridated toothpaste:)... Seriously though, this could hopefully broaden the electric car industry. Apparently the Tesla Roadster can get 245 miles with a traditional lithium-ion battery? Imagine how far we could go if the capacity really was 10x that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster
I want another car, but i don't have a $100,000 on me right now:)

Tor · 2011-10-25 14:27

Loopy Byteloose wrote: »

I okay, I'll bite (pun intended). If Fluoride can offer 10x the stored energy of Lithium batteries, doesn't that mean that they produce 10x the fire ball when their containment fails due to a short or overcharging?

In addition to what Heater said about failure mode handling, there are also some nasty issues by Lithium itself, particularly in its metallic form (which is why Lithium-metal batteries are, eh, frowned upon aboard airplanes. They're used for professional video equipment and the like). As I understand it Lithium reacts with humidity in the air. (edit: Tried to look it up: Here's one link: http://www.espimetals.com/index.php/msds/210-lithium

"Lithium metal can reignite after fire is initially extinguished.", "Reacts violently with water to give off flammable, explosive hydrogen gas and corrosive dust."

-Tor

bill190 · 2011-10-25 17:12

Here is another new battery. The same?

"Toyota Develops New Electric Car Battery"

"Toyota Motor has developed a secondary electric car battery that can last up to 1,000 km per charge, the Nihon Keizai Shimbun reported Monday. That is five times the energy storage capacity of existing batteries."

More...
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2011/10/18/2011101800617.html

Peter KG6LSE · 2011-10-25 20:56

I was a dumb kid one day about 8 years ago and I cracked open a Li IOn cell to try to make a big boom from the Li in the batt with water .......... not a darn thing happened .. and a Iam more then willing to do it again on cam.. .. its not a bare LI element !! its a in a matrix of other stuff . not as bad as you think as far as Water is worried ...now heat on the other hand ...........................
BTW I found some nice Copper sheet in there too..

Peter...

SRLM · 2011-10-26 22:16

Of course, we still have to find the energy to charge the new batteries...

Regarding Lion batteries, I had on of these batteries from Sparkfun, and I accidentally nicked the case with the bottom of a soldered PCB, ruining the battery. So I took it outside and put a nail through the middle of the battery. Nothing happened, no sparks, no fire. So I poured water on it, and it got hot enough to boil the water but that's it. All in all, rather disappointing.

LoopyByteloose · 2011-10-27 05:00

@Heater
Not all concentrations of energy have the same explosive force in a failure mode. That's why traditional gun powder is considered significantly slower that plastic explosives and why jet fuel is safer than gasoline.

But what I really suspect is that battery chemistry and energy densities tend to increase hazard proportional to increase in capacity. We are already at the point that airlines are concerned with laptop batteries having enough explosive force to down an airplane if not handled in baggage rather than cabin. With really small devices, the explosive force is below the ability to do serious damage, but with bigger devices the failure mode becomes very significant.

So a 10X increase over Li-ion will have some serious safety challenges before it gets into mainstream use.

Martin_H · 2011-11-27 05:04

I came across a picture of this outrageously beautiful Bismuth crystal:

Could someone please explain to me why humans treasure gold more than this?

PS I put this here because it is tangentially related to my fluorine rant.

Tracy Allen · 2011-11-28 12:00

Here's another battery possibility, without the flouride. In R&D stage, it uses a carbon foam cathode and is a hybrid betwixt battery and capacitor.

User Name · 2011-11-29 07:10

Tracy Allen wrote: »

Here's another battery possibility, without the flouride. In R&D stage, it uses a carbon foam cathode and is a hybrid betwixt battery and capacitor.

What they don't say speaks volumes; there is no mention of capacity or energy density, whatsoever. OTOH, gotta love the 100,000+ recharge cycles!

ralieam · 2012-02-04 22:03

This will be really great news for the most of the Smartphone, notebook and electric car operators, since these people usually prefer lithium battery for their operations which doesn’t had much capacity in it, they can make use of lithium battery for few hours. Always this smartphone, notebook and electric car operator find difficulties with the battery working capacity; hope this research by KIT will help them to overcome their difficulties. I hope they will adopt this technique for laptop batteries to increase the backup time at a less cost.. Please update use with the researches carried on by KIT.

Fluoride battery promises 10x energy density of Li-Ion

Comments