... So, i will give this Catalina a try(I hope it doesn't cost to much) and i will find a C compiler for PC. I can't say that i will be on as often as i used to be. I am kind of running out of ideas for projects. The Propeller is still one of the favorites in my arsenal.
I think you're going to be surprised at the price.
50% off, sheesh he doesn't do that for just anyone...
RK, they jest with you too much re the discount. http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?135039-Catalina-3.3, see the first post by Ross, down the bottom of the screen is the download link. Follow it through and you will find Ross has put a lot of work in recently to make the install process as smooth as possible.
What hardware do you have? Maybe a quick post on that thread and Ross will help you with any settings you might need.
Should have you coding a C program within 10-20 minutes.
prof_braino
I was under the impression the guys working on Catalina were kind of sharp, did you try that?
Hmm - at least three meanings to that one. Very witty.
By all means, go ahead and explore. I am not sure C or C++ are so important to micro-controllers - but there certainly are reasons to develop an understanding of where it fits into computer programing as a whole.
For mainstream, I am now learning Python and not sure I will ever find a reason to master C in great depth.
Anyway, the only way to fully understand the Propeller is to understand what is not available in other platforms. So it is all to the good and we will look forward to whenever you return.
Like many here, I am not sure C or C++ are so important to micro-controllers
Sometimes I think I have been living on different planet. Well, that is to say I don't know where "many here" have been but C and to a lesser extent C++ have been a major feature of the micro-controller landscape for decades. I'm wondering what other language(s) have been important to micro-controllers for "many here". In my years of experience it all started with assembler, then moved on to simple languages like PL/M from Intel and then on to C domination and perhaps a little C++ in recent years. In the serious embedded world of aircraft flight controls, think Boeing 777 primary Flight Computers, there is a lot of ADA. At least that has been my micro-controller/embedded system world.
Seriously, what languages have people been using in micro-controllers/embedded systems?
However, I agree - Ravenkallen, why not try Catalina before you decide to leave the Prop altogether? All the fun of C, plus the best microcontroller on the planet. I'll even throw in a 50% discount!
Catalina even has a built in "target" for the ASC you have!
First off, you can never learn too many languages, and learning a new one shows no disrespect to the the others.
You may want to take a look at the AVR's and using WinAVR which is based on GCC. Since the C they are working on for the Prop and eventually Prop II is GCC based it would be a good start. I used an AVR and WinAVR a few years back and found the learning curve to be very short after having some previous experience with PIC's and HiTech C for the Pic.
I think you are correct in the fact that C is a must to learn. Everyone at my company except me knows C and so I also feel like you do in that its time to learn it. I am using bloodshed C compiler / debugger on for the PC.
I wanted to use Catalina but was under the impression that it was going to be discontinued and is no longer supported. Perhaps we will soon learn this mysterious yet famous language.
I was kinda hoping you guys would try to talk me out of it:). If you guys can point to a real C compiler for the Propeller, than i might give it a second thought. I guess fear of not knowing how to do something that so many others do all the time is what is driving me...C seems to be the accepted industry standard, even though other languages are easier to use/read. But, i feel like i just won't get anywhere until i learn C. Plus, i want to move up to ARM's eventually to. Those things can do many things the Propeller can't do(USB, real OS's, DMA, more RAM/ FLASH)... So, you all think learning it on a PC is easier?
The robot project I am working on now uses some custom C code running on a Windows PC. The robot itself will have a couple Microcontroller boards (one Propeller based) to help control the robot. If you want to brush up on C/C++ you can get Visual C++ 2010 Express for free:
I wanted to use Catalina but was under the impression that it was going to be discontinued and is no longer supported. Perhaps we will soon learn this mysterious yet famous language.
You might be referring to ICCV7 being discontinued:
RK is getting the royal treatment here. Way to rally, team! Everyone loves it when a fuss is made over them.
Come to think of it, I was thinking of leaving too. Two questions:
1) What am I offered if I stay?
2) What am I offered if I leave?
I'll weigh my options carefully.
So folks what do we think of Erco's bid for attention? Usually when he does this sort of thing some free goodies head his way. I'll offer you a make your own diamond kit, otherwise known as a lump of coal!
Anyone should really consider learning C programming on a PC where there are no limits. Even learning another language that is a relative of C would bolster your C knowledge and comfort level. Java and C# are perfect examples. Once you understand the structure of C and related programs, you can learn almost any normal computer language (ones using infix).
GCC and MS visual studio C++ dominate normal C/C++ computing in education and industry. GCC will be available on Propeller soon. Meanwhile Catalina is fine for C programming until (and after) Propeller GCC is ready.
C++ is the worst possible OOP language to learn for a beginner (unless it's repackaged as we have learned from some competition), but it is an important tool for software engineers. Java and C# are much better OOP languages. Once you've mastered one of those, C++ is cake (except for memory management).
To echo others here, learn C on a PC. It will save you a lot of trouble and time. Once you get half-way good at it, then try it out wee beasties like the Prop and ARM.
And C is almost the defacto programming language of the ARM/MIPS chips.
@Heater
I have removed "Like many here" from my message as it wasn't critical to the core of my message. Parallax managed to get quite far with PBasic and assembly code before the introduced the Propeller - which is coded with SPIN and PASM. No C. In fact, Parallax's whole philosophy seems to be centered on deterministic programing and the use of a P-code machine in firmware to provide a VM that doesn't require C.
I do hope that satisfies your standards of proper postings. In the future, I won't speculate or presume that there are others that feel the same as myself. As my mom would say, "If you chafe easily, use Vaseline."
Martin Hodge.... I actually just fired up the ASC and attached the KVM adapter to it. I have already ported SpaceAce! to it and i really like it so far. I might port other things over to it as well. I think you found a new fan:)
@Ross... I guess the whole thing about Catalina costing money was a joke? I am quite gullible sometimes, haha... Is there anything i need to install before i put Catalina on? Or is there some kind of manual or something?
@Ross... I guess the whole thing about Catalina costing money was a joke? I am quite gullible sometimes, haha... Is there anything i need to install before i put Catalina on? Or is there some kind of manual or something?
Yes - as others have mentioned, Catalina is 100% free (apart from the Code Optimizer, which you won't need just to learn C). Also, it is worth pointing out that Catalina is pure C. It is not C++ or C# or some random subset (or superset) of C which you often find on micro C implementations - it is just 100% ANSI C. So if you are already reasonably comfortable with the Propeller, it is in fact a pretty good choice for learning C. But if you are not comfortable with the Propeller, then I agree with what others have said - learn some C on a PC first - it is just a bit easier if you don't need to go through all the hassle of getting the pin definitions correct and dowloading programs serially etc etc.
If you are on Windows, just download and run the installer. It will install everything - Catalina, Code::Blocks (the integreted development environment) and all the documentation - plus lots of example programs.
Catalina can generate code for any Propeller board, but if you let me know what particular board you have, I may be able to give you some pointers that will save you some time and confusion.
One thing you will find is that you very quickly want to run much larger C programs than can fit in the 32kb available "off the shelf" on a Propeller. This is partly because C is less memory efficient than Spin, but mostly because there are just so many C programs available on the internet that you could run - but they are generally designed to run on desktop machines - nobody ever thought we would be able to run them on a microcontroller! If your board does not have any external RAM, Rayman's FlashPoint modules are a very cheap and easy way to add external memory to any existing Propeller board.
@Ross... I guess the whole thing about Catalina costing money was a joke? I am quite gullible sometimes, haha... Is there anything i need to install before i put Catalina on? Or is there some kind of manual or something?
If you go to any post by Ross, follow the link in his byline, and then just follow the prompts it will take you through the entire process. It even pops up an instruction manual at just the right time and you just follow the steps.
Ross has taken something quite complex and made it easy. And, for free, you should be able to print 'Hello World" on either a TV or VGA display (your choice) or on a serial terminal within a short time of downloading the file package.
So much is written in C - it is the language that has stood the test of time. As a small example, I'm looking at some 320x240 graphics modules for $25 each with full color. I would have no idea how to interface to these, but there are libraries already written in C (and in particular in the C89 standard that is Catalina).
Please don't leave the Propeller until you have checked out Catalina!
From the more historical portion of the home library:
I have that one too. It predates ANSI, so it's not really for today's beginners.
There is an ANSI version though. The text is very nicely done in any edition.
So... First i want to say that you have all been great. One of the best forum "families" i have known:). But the time has come for me to get over my fear of C/ C++. I have now pledged most of my spare time to learning C/ C++ using an Arduino(And then moving on to ARM's, Mbeds, AVRS and all that). I am not completely abandoning the Propeller, but rather taking a extended "holiday" from it. So, this means that work on PASos has been discontinued, as well as the text editor program. The C3 seems to be losing popularity anyways... I may still work on Spaceace! though and be watching over the forums occasionally to.
To Cluso... I am still planning on using the CPUBlades in my soldering iron project.. It might be one of my last Prop projects for a while
To WBA Consulting... I think your DIP40 modules have promise. I still have one embedded on my Rover5 platform.
To Martin Hodge... I still have not gotten around to using the ASC compatible in a project. I am still thinking of a good project to use it with. I had an idea though. I could write a SPIN program for most every Arduino project that i do, To see if we can get more shields successfully interfaced with the ASC?
To Ken, Chip and Parallax... You guys are a very good example of what a company should be like. Honest, open, modestly priced products, community support. Never give up:)
@everybody else.... I still LOVE the Propeller and it is still very relevant, but i have to break out and look at what else is out there. AND I HAVE to learn C, even if it kills me:) C is the language that the computer world seems to be leaning towards and i have put off learning it to long. I just feel like i will get left behind if i don't act now. Who knows, in a year from now the Propeller 2 could be out and a real C compiler developed for it. I hope to see you all again soon... RK
PS... If anybody is interested, i am selling my used C3(Excellent condition) for $60(Compared to $129.99 new)
'
I'm about ready to call it off my self.
'
Parallax flat out refusues to suport any of the great compliers out now.
'
And then theres the WiFi thing.
'
The WiFi intro with all the photos.
'
And then the E.O.L. before it was ever relased. WTF!
"Parallax flat out refuses to support any of the great compilers out now." - huh?
ImageCraft developed a nice C compiler for the Propeller. It wasn't free, but it worked very nicely and they have a lot of experience in developing C compilers for a variety of microprocessors.
RossH then developed a very nice C compiler that has gone through quite an evolution to a very polished state with a variety of memory and execution models that trade off execution speed for memory size as is necessary for the Propeller.
I can't say that Parallax supported the development of these compilers in the sense of paying outright for their development, but they've been supportive. ImageCraft perhaps got into the market a little too early in terms of an established base of commercial volume uses of the Propeller that would provide paying customers and, by the time the base developed, RossH had already provided a mostly free alternative.
Now Parallax is actively supporting the development of a GCC-based compiler for the Propeller, mostly to support the Prop II, but it is being initially targeted for the Prop I. It seems, by all reports, to be generating mostly correct code, so its release can't be too far off.
The WiFi thing is too bad. I understand the necessity, but I was looking forward to it. There are very few companies that will talk about the reasons for abandoning the development of a new product and be very frank about it, particularly when it's so close to finishing. I applaud Ken for his comments.
Comments
I think you're going to be surprised at the price.
50% off, sheesh he doesn't do that for just anyone...
What hardware do you have? Maybe a quick post on that thread and Ross will help you with any settings you might need.
Should have you coding a C program within 10-20 minutes.
prof_braino
Hmm - at least three meanings to that one. Very witty.
Cluso! Are you trying to ruin me? That would be below cost!
Ross.
For mainstream, I am now learning Python and not sure I will ever find a reason to master C in great depth.
Anyway, the only way to fully understand the Propeller is to understand what is not available in other platforms. So it is all to the good and we will look forward to whenever you return.
Sometimes I think I have been living on different planet. Well, that is to say I don't know where "many here" have been but C and to a lesser extent C++ have been a major feature of the micro-controller landscape for decades. I'm wondering what other language(s) have been important to micro-controllers for "many here". In my years of experience it all started with assembler, then moved on to simple languages like PL/M from Intel and then on to C domination and perhaps a little C++ in recent years. In the serious embedded world of aircraft flight controls, think Boeing 777 primary Flight Computers, there is a lot of ADA. At least that has been my micro-controller/embedded system world.
Seriously, what languages have people been using in micro-controllers/embedded systems?
Catalina even has a built in "target" for the ASC you have!
You may want to take a look at the AVR's and using WinAVR which is based on GCC. Since the C they are working on for the Prop and eventually Prop II is GCC based it would be a good start. I used an AVR and WinAVR a few years back and found the learning curve to be very short after having some previous experience with PIC's and HiTech C for the Pic.
C.W.
I think you are correct in the fact that C is a must to learn. Everyone at my company except me knows C and so I also feel like you do in that its time to learn it. I am using bloodshed C compiler / debugger on for the PC.
I wanted to use Catalina but was under the impression that it was going to be discontinued and is no longer supported. Perhaps we will soon learn this mysterious yet famous language.
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?113091-ULTIMATE-List-of-Propeller-Languages
The only need you should have is to move on to more with the Propeller.
The robot project I am working on now uses some custom C code running on a Windows PC. The robot itself will have a couple Microcontroller boards (one Propeller based) to help control the robot. If you want to brush up on C/C++ you can get Visual C++ 2010 Express for free:
http://www.microsoft.com/visualstudio/en-us/products/2010-editions/visual-cpp-express
There are lots of great tutorials online to help get started too.
You might be referring to ICCV7 being discontinued:
http://www.parallax.com/StoreSearchResults/tabid/768/List/0/SortField/4/ProductID/526/Default.aspx?txtSearch=C+compiler
Catalina is alive and well and free!:
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?135039-Catalina-3.3
Although Ross will take donations
Jim
As for an embedded device, here's a an ARM-based kit that Leon mentioned the other day. You can get a free sample: http://www.st.com/internet/evalboard/product/252419.jsp
Wow, I was mistaken thanks for clearing this up.
So folks what do we think of Erco's bid for attention? Usually when he does this sort of thing some free goodies head his way. I'll offer you a make your own diamond kit, otherwise known as a lump of coal!
GCC and MS visual studio C++ dominate normal C/C++ computing in education and industry. GCC will be available on Propeller soon. Meanwhile Catalina is fine for C programming until (and after) Propeller GCC is ready.
C++ is the worst possible OOP language to learn for a beginner (unless it's repackaged as we have learned from some competition), but it is an important tool for software engineers. Java and C# are much better OOP languages. Once you've mastered one of those, C++ is cake (except for memory management).
Unfortunately that's the high bid so far. Was that for leaving or staying?
And C is almost the defacto programming language of the ARM/MIPS chips.
I have removed "Like many here" from my message as it wasn't critical to the core of my message. Parallax managed to get quite far with PBasic and assembly code before the introduced the Propeller - which is coded with SPIN and PASM. No C. In fact, Parallax's whole philosophy seems to be centered on deterministic programing and the use of a P-code machine in firmware to provide a VM that doesn't require C.
I do hope that satisfies your standards of proper postings. In the future, I won't speculate or presume that there are others that feel the same as myself. As my mom would say, "If you chafe easily, use Vaseline."
Hmm, it was a low-ball bid and I didn't expect to win. Staying I suppose.
@Ross... I guess the whole thing about Catalina costing money was a joke? I am quite gullible sometimes, haha... Is there anything i need to install before i put Catalina on? Or is there some kind of manual or something?
Yes - as others have mentioned, Catalina is 100% free (apart from the Code Optimizer, which you won't need just to learn C). Also, it is worth pointing out that Catalina is pure C. It is not C++ or C# or some random subset (or superset) of C which you often find on micro C implementations - it is just 100% ANSI C. So if you are already reasonably comfortable with the Propeller, it is in fact a pretty good choice for learning C. But if you are not comfortable with the Propeller, then I agree with what others have said - learn some C on a PC first - it is just a bit easier if you don't need to go through all the hassle of getting the pin definitions correct and dowloading programs serially etc etc.
If you are on Windows, just download and run the installer. It will install everything - Catalina, Code::Blocks (the integreted development environment) and all the documentation - plus lots of example programs.
Catalina can generate code for any Propeller board, but if you let me know what particular board you have, I may be able to give you some pointers that will save you some time and confusion.
One thing you will find is that you very quickly want to run much larger C programs than can fit in the 32kb available "off the shelf" on a Propeller. This is partly because C is less memory efficient than Spin, but mostly because there are just so many C programs available on the internet that you could run - but they are generally designed to run on desktop machines - nobody ever thought we would be able to run them on a microcontroller! If your board does not have any external RAM, Rayman's FlashPoint modules are a very cheap and easy way to add external memory to any existing Propeller board.
Ross.
http://publications.gbdirect.co.uk/c_book/
Frank
If you go to any post by Ross, follow the link in his byline, and then just follow the prompts it will take you through the entire process. It even pops up an instruction manual at just the right time and you just follow the steps.
Ross has taken something quite complex and made it easy. And, for free, you should be able to print 'Hello World" on either a TV or VGA display (your choice) or on a serial terminal within a short time of downloading the file package.
So much is written in C - it is the language that has stood the test of time. As a small example, I'm looking at some 320x240 graphics modules for $25 each with full color. I would have no idea how to interface to these, but there are libraries already written in C (and in particular in the C89 standard that is Catalina).
Please don't leave the Propeller until you have checked out Catalina!
There is an ANSI version though. The text is very nicely done in any edition.
I'm about ready to call it off my self.
'
Parallax flat out refusues to suport any of the great compliers out now.
'
And then theres the WiFi thing.
'
The WiFi intro with all the photos.
'
And then the E.O.L. before it was ever relased. WTF!
ImageCraft developed a nice C compiler for the Propeller. It wasn't free, but it worked very nicely and they have a lot of experience in developing C compilers for a variety of microprocessors.
RossH then developed a very nice C compiler that has gone through quite an evolution to a very polished state with a variety of memory and execution models that trade off execution speed for memory size as is necessary for the Propeller.
I can't say that Parallax supported the development of these compilers in the sense of paying outright for their development, but they've been supportive. ImageCraft perhaps got into the market a little too early in terms of an established base of commercial volume uses of the Propeller that would provide paying customers and, by the time the base developed, RossH had already provided a mostly free alternative.
Now Parallax is actively supporting the development of a GCC-based compiler for the Propeller, mostly to support the Prop II, but it is being initially targeted for the Prop I. It seems, by all reports, to be generating mostly correct code, so its release can't be too far off.
The WiFi thing is too bad. I understand the necessity, but I was looking forward to it. There are very few companies that will talk about the reasons for abandoning the development of a new product and be very frank about it, particularly when it's so close to finishing. I applaud Ken for his comments.