Whenever I hear "Propeller is deterministic" I'm reminded of Idiocracy and the round table discussion of "Brawndo's got electrolytes" :-)
Ha ha, that gave me a chuckle. It is one of those discussion-ending statements. A bit like "Yes, but this amp goes to eleven".
Seriously, what I like about the prop. Well, you get a cog and it has some working memory and it runs fast and doesn't get hot, and the chip is reasonably priced. All good. But wait, there is more! You get another 7 of these cogs. And you get 32k of ram. And you can program it in a hundred different languages.
The best bit for me is the way you can run video and then run other things at the same time, like multiple serial ports. And the way you can mix and match cogs eg by having one cog draw video and then adding another cog and drawing better video.
I also like the flexibility and knowing that we still haven't pushed this chip nearly to its limits.
I could list more, but then one risks becoming a fanboi
Fanboi:
Deliberate mispelling of the word 'fanboy' typically referring to an annoying, immature fan of a specific video game console.
fanbois typically spend most of their free time telling anyone who will listen how perfect thier console of choice is, and how inferior all other products are. fanbois will not stop annoying other people until everyone they know is converted to their way of thinking.
neutral observer: "Console X looks to have a strong line up this year, but console Y still has the momentum from last year"
fanboi: "NO STFU CONSOLE Z IS THE BEST EVER. UR ALL IDIOTS, GO WASTE MORE MONEY ON YOUR SHT CONSOLE X AND Y LOL"
fanboi 1: well well, if it isnt mr stupid console Y owner
fanboi 2: your just jealous of how awesome console Y is
*fight to the death*
#1- Parallax and the people behind the company. Where else can you spend a day with the guy that designs the chips and talk with him about everything under the sun...or does the big cheese jump into a thread and tell a customer "you shouldn't be having that problem...we'll send you a new one."?
#2- the forums - 99% of the regulars are helpful, positive folks with some great ideas and a true passion to help people with their propeller problems.
#3- I just find working with the propeller to be relaxing and rewarding. I'm just in this for fun and learning. I get what I want.
The thing I like best about the Propeller is that the forum dedicated to it's discussion is like watching an old episode of "Dallas".
LOL! Yup, plenty of intrigue an' trash talkin'. At least they ain't no killin' goin' on!
At its best the forum is a goldmine of information, good ideas, and collegial discussion. But even at it's worst, no one can deny that it's entertaining!
The video generation capabilities of the Propeller is what got me hooked... Probably second would be it's use of a simplistic language(SPIN). That was pretty important for those who do not want to learn/ like C/ C++
I do think that hand wringing and constant comparisons to other chips is starting to get old... Every uC has it's place:)
I too was initially hooked by the Propeller's ability to do video. What has kept me hooked is the library of objects which make the Propeller "electronics silly puddy", and the ease in which I was able to transition from BASIC to Spin.
The obvious one is 8 processors and a language that makes it easy to use that. "Silly Putty" is a great comparison. Today I want 4 I2C objects and some SPI and yes a serial console. Tomorrow I want a 4 bit custom bus and VGA. It may not be the fastest boy on the block doing it but it sure is nice to not have to bang your head against needing a pin for function X but can't use it because its tied up for function Y in hardware. Having played around in other micros I do miss the the props easy of firing off another cog and not worrying if there's enough time in the loop to do all the work. They all have something going for them and weak spots.
First it was the video/VGA capabilities (8051 and AVR used before)
Second it was the singular software front end (ie not a thousand flavours of C or assemblers to tried to get something working). I know that this has branched out a bit since but these are open source that hasn't been a problem.
Third is the non combative forum. There's isn't the "don't bother us superiers with such a trivial enquiry" (mostly, Mindrobots has it almost right, but it is probably nearer 99.99% helpful).
Wow, I posted a simple comment of how I like determinism only to find out a mini war started following it. Others have done an excellent job clarifying what I meant, but let me add a few more things that I "like" about it. Determinism and simplicity together, I think this is what makes the Prop so unique.
I have (and still) use Pics and AVRs, both in high level languages and assembly. I don't just like, I love the determinism of the Prop combined with the simplicity, especially compared to the Pics and AVRs. The issue here is the simplicity of calculating how long things will take, without worrying about banks, interrupts, cache, etc. It is possible in other chips to achieve determinism? Sure. Do I care to spend extra effort to make it happen, versus simply having it available on the Prop? Nope!.
And by the way, don't get me started on the fact that other micro-controllers have I2C, SPI etc., sure they do, but figuring out all the limitations, shared pin issues and configuration is a nightmare: if that pin is used for that then you can't use that pin for this, and if you use this pin for that, then that register has to be set to that, but only if you don't use that pin in analog mode, in which case you have to set that register to that value, but then that pin won't be functional for his mode and .... (should I go on, or you get the point...). I don't know about you, but I'll take simple over complicated any day.
When Chip first described the Prop-1, I was struck with how elegant it looked. I've used an awful lot of different instruction sets over the years and different computers / microprocessors / microcontrollers. I've even designed one, back when this was done with discrete IC gates. The Prop's instruction set looked clean. It was deterministic. The mix between assembly language use and Spin made sense in terms of capability vs. speed. There were some odd bits. The video hardware, while it is great to have, was very poorly documented. Andr
Well, there are lots of motivations for doing this stuff. Some do it professionally, some do it for entertainment, or to learn. Others do it because it's enabling technology that lets them do something else too. Lots of reasons.
If a thread exploring these things is fandom, fine. Put me in the list, as I am always interested in WHY people choose technology. Sometimes it's motivational, and it works a little like music does. Ever notice how it's sometimes easier to like a song or a genre of music where you've got peers excited about it, giving it context?
That is what happens with this stuff in a lot of cases. Not all cases of course. Nothing is absolute, but then again, nothing is pure either.
Also using the music analogy, ever notice how it's often difficult to just enjoy music with strong critics present? This stuff works like that too.
What I saw here was somebody looking to explore "the music" some, motivations, features, applicability. Can't that just happen? Seems to me it can, and why that must be tempered with the strong criticism is beyond me. There are times when that critical discussion is great, I happen to enjoy it for a lot of reasons. I enjoy this kind of discussion too, where finding points of resonance is happening. Doing that isn't making a blanket statement of superiority, nor is it diminishing other points of resonance, whatever they may be. It's just resonance, which is community, motivating, sometimes educational, and highly likely to be fun.
Just think about it some. And this post is in response to Kye asking the very valid question, "why do these threads get started?"
Took a day or so to sort it, but there you go. That's why. Consider doing the work to come to understand that.
Greetings Gentlemen and Ladies,
This thread has had several requests to be locked; we will be honoring that request and examining this thread for further moderation. I apologize for any broken conversations this may cause, please choose to pick-up any topic in an appropriate forum or discontinue conversation.
Locked by forum request and that of the OP.
Stay on topic:
Please maintain the integrity and focus of the original posters intent for their forums post; if a topic derails or if a thread is hijacked it will be subject to moderation. At anytime you feel the discussion requires further consideration on a specific topic it is okay to start a new thread for that purpose, so long as it adheres to the rules and intent of the Parallax Discussion Forums.
Contribute to the conversation:
Its good to agree and show your support, but please try to avoid posting useless information. If you dont have something to contribute then consider not posting. This ruling includes images, emoticons, and memes; they are wasteful on the servers and are subject to removal.
Salutations,
After careful consideration and a mild-application of pruning to this thread we will be reopening it for continued discussion pertaining to 'Your favorite features of the Propeller P8X32A multicored microprocessor chip.'
We understand that a conversation exists as call and response, we are not concerned with correcting or censoring that truth; however we cannot allow threads to be hijacked in a manner that does not honor the intent of the original post. If a burgeoning topic requires a more detailed discussion to help foster its growth, feel free to seed that conversation within the appropriate forum; this will not always be necessary, use discretion.
Please also keep in mind that these types of threads will, more often than not, cause a lot of digression from the topic. They are highly-subjective and open to interpretation and opinion. Many have noted this as 'preaching to the choir' and we agree, although we do enjoy hearing your praise about Parallax products. Remember that everyone uses our products differently, for some it is an intimate experience while for others it may just be a best fit.
I apologize ceasing the conversation until this correction could be made, please continue if you see fit.
Stay on topic.
Favorites?
Right from the beginning the basic 3 --- keyboard, mouse, and video, especially color video.
You just can't find anything else that provides the ability to have all these together in one chip with such ease. Of course, that doesn't mean that I don't like the other features as they create a vast variety of choices.
But the BS2 never offered this level of user interface. And it has taken Parallax to a whole higher level as people have been able to create Propeller Basic, Propeller Forth, Propeller C, and so on with the accommodation of a real computer workstation in one rather inexpensive chip.
When I first heard about the propeller then what stuck was that list Dr_A mentioned on top of http://www.smarthome.jigsy.com/propeller - I guess that was what got me hooked. Then you read down the page and you're in.
I accidentally stumbled upon a description of the Propeller P8X32A microprocessor/microcontroller
I read the basic specs...
* microprocessor/microcontroller with 8 32-bit RISC cores
Next I quickly looked at the pasm (assembler) instruction set...
* really neat and regular instruction set
And the higher level language/interpreter is SPIN
* sort of a mix between C and Basic using forced indentation.
Now I am beginning to get hooked (I'm a techo Electronics Designer & Programmer of 40 yrs)
Then I took a quick look at the Forum...
* lots of active members
And the OBEX...
* lots of free examples to add all sorts of features
Gee, with an object + 2 I/O pins + 4 resistors...
* add a PS2 Keyboard or Mouse
And an object + 3-4 I/O pins + 3-4 resistors...
* add a Color Composite TV Monitor
And an object + 8 I/O pins + 8 resistors...
* add a Color VGA Monitor
A quick look at PropTool...
* So simple to write a program (no command line programs, no makefiles, etc)
* Virtually no setup registers to wade through for any initialisation
I am hooked! I ordered a pair of Propeller Proto Boards (no USB version back then, but I had an FTDI 2232 board so no need for the PropPlug) within a few hours of discovering the Propeller chip. Now the wait for shipping to Australia.
By the time the boards arrived from Parallax, I had read up what I could on the forums and other documents.
When they arrived, I did the simple examples that accompanied the PropTool download.
Fantastically simple. It was not long and I had my Leds flashing by different cogs, and with my modified timing.
Then I added the VGA connector (I didn't buy the VGA/PS2 combined connector so I just fitted a standard VGA connector angled so I could attach the VGA cable). Voila - the VGA Objects ran. This all in 1 day!!
I AM POSITIVELY HOOKED !!!
I have now designed and built the TriBlade which is a 3 Propeller pcb with 512KB of SRAM and microSD. This was used as the basis to get heaters ZiCog (Z80 emulation) and CPM2.2 running.
Since then I designed and built the RamBlade, a tiny 1.2"x1.9" pcb with a Propeller, 64KB Eeprom, 512KB 55ns SRAM, microSD and overclocked to 104MHz. This self-contained module runs ZiCog and CPM2.2 and uses either a PS2 Keyboard and monochrome composite video TV/monitor, or can be connected to another Propeller pcb serially to do all the various I/Os. Catalina, Sphinx and other Propeller OSes run on this board too.
I have assisted James in his DracBlade designs.
There is so much that can be done on this single chip. And there is still so much that has yet to be explored.
One of the huge advantages is that all the peripherals on the Propeller chip are defined by software and/or the counters. All I/O pins are identical and interchangeable, with only a few minor exceptions. No need to wade through a family of chips to find one with the right mix of peripherals. One day you could build the prop with 16 UARTs, the next with 8 SPI interfaces, and the following with 16 I2C busses, and the next, a variation of these and VGA or TV or both. Stereo has been done and various sound chips have been emulated.
I have never had a single chip that I can do so much with! It maybe expensive ($7.95 Qty 1) compared with some single purpose micros, but it is not when you consider what you can do with the "same" chip. And it is so easy to develop with. This is especially important when time to market is critical - because you can compartmentalise the various processes into different cores (cogs) so that interaction between these processes becomes a breeze.
I got the Propeller Starter Kit from sheer curiosity. I wanted to check out those 8 cogs.
The first thing I really liked was the manual. Real paper! I can scribble notes! I can stick bookmarks! I don't need to lug my desktop to read it! I'm in LOVE!!!
I worked through the examples in the manual, and shortly thereafter I tried my first project: a small (6 inch) foam-core Christmas tree with LEDs. The LEDs "twinkle" on and off, and the large white LED on the top fades from off to on and back using PWM. Getting the project going only took several hours; the code was a breeze to tweak -- once I figured out what happened to the FOR command!
The other thing I like is the font. It really helps to be able to pop a schematic into the code!
I thought that it was just me that needed to destroy trees to understand things. PDFs, on screen, just leaves me with more eye strain. A quiet hour, with a wad of paper (and tea), is so much more enlightening.
I do it too. The improved Parallax Manual PDF is pretty nice. I will use it for quick lookups. But, when I want to read something, I like physical media the best, and I like to make notes.
Way back in the early eighties I breadboarded together a Comodore Vic 20 minus the audio/video and used it to build something I wanted it to do. I don't even know if there were microcontrollers back then. Then I went away from doing those type of things for about 30 years and when I came back there was the Propeller. A single chip that could do much more than that entire breadboard collaboration could even dream of.
I thought that it was just me that needed to destroy trees to understand things. PDFs, on screen, just leaves me with more eye strain. A quiet hour, with a wad of paper (and tea), is so much more enlightening.
I'm another one that likes a paper manual. While a pdf is nice and has it's time and place I still like a paper book the best and wish that I could get the latest version of the manual as a paper book. That said not to long ago I got a kindle and would love a version formatted for the kindle. I loaded the pdf to it but the formatting is really messed up which makes it very difficult to read. :-(
Comments
Ha ha, that gave me a chuckle. It is one of those discussion-ending statements. A bit like "Yes, but this amp goes to eleven".
Seriously, what I like about the prop. Well, you get a cog and it has some working memory and it runs fast and doesn't get hot, and the chip is reasonably priced. All good. But wait, there is more! You get another 7 of these cogs. And you get 32k of ram. And you can program it in a hundred different languages.
The best bit for me is the way you can run video and then run other things at the same time, like multiple serial ports. And the way you can mix and match cogs eg by having one cog draw video and then adding another cog and drawing better video.
I also like the flexibility and knowing that we still haven't pushed this chip nearly to its limits.
I could list more, but then one risks becoming a fanboi
Fanboi:
Deliberate mispelling of the word 'fanboy' typically referring to an annoying, immature fan of a specific video game console.
fanbois typically spend most of their free time telling anyone who will listen how perfect thier console of choice is, and how inferior all other products are. fanbois will not stop annoying other people until everyone they know is converted to their way of thinking.
neutral observer: "Console X looks to have a strong line up this year, but console Y still has the momentum from last year"
fanboi: "NO STFU CONSOLE Z IS THE BEST EVER. UR ALL IDIOTS, GO WASTE MORE MONEY ON YOUR SHT CONSOLE X AND Y LOL"
fanboi 1: well well, if it isnt mr stupid console Y owner
fanboi 2: your just jealous of how awesome console Y is
*fight to the death*
#2- the forums - 99% of the regulars are helpful, positive folks with some great ideas and a true passion to help people with their propeller problems.
#3- I just find working with the propeller to be relaxing and rewarding. I'm just in this for fun and learning. I get what I want.
That's powerful ... on top of all the other features cited here!
I don't know another micro controller that can output 0, 1 or an analog voltage between 0-3.3v on any i/o pin?
I'm impressed!
... Tim
At its best the forum is a goldmine of information, good ideas, and collegial discussion. But even at it's worst, no one can deny that it's entertaining!
-Phil
I do think that hand wringing and constant comparisons to other chips is starting to get old... Every uC has it's place:)
OBC
Second it was the singular software front end (ie not a thousand flavours of C or assemblers to tried to get something working). I know that this has branched out a bit since but these are open source that hasn't been a problem.
Third is the non combative forum. There's isn't the "don't bother us superiers with such a trivial enquiry" (mostly, Mindrobots has it almost right, but it is probably nearer 99.99% helpful).
I don't know? I think programmers pass to many arguments!
... Tim
I have (and still) use Pics and AVRs, both in high level languages and assembly. I don't just like, I love the determinism of the Prop combined with the simplicity, especially compared to the Pics and AVRs. The issue here is the simplicity of calculating how long things will take, without worrying about banks, interrupts, cache, etc. It is possible in other chips to achieve determinism? Sure. Do I care to spend extra effort to make it happen, versus simply having it available on the Prop? Nope!.
And by the way, don't get me started on the fact that other micro-controllers have I2C, SPI etc., sure they do, but figuring out all the limitations, shared pin issues and configuration is a nightmare: if that pin is used for that then you can't use that pin for this, and if you use this pin for that, then that register has to be set to that, but only if you don't use that pin in analog mode, in which case you have to set that register to that value, but then that pin won't be functional for his mode and .... (should I go on, or you get the point...). I don't know about you, but I'll take simple over complicated any day.
Well, there are lots of motivations for doing this stuff. Some do it professionally, some do it for entertainment, or to learn. Others do it because it's enabling technology that lets them do something else too. Lots of reasons.
If a thread exploring these things is fandom, fine. Put me in the list, as I am always interested in WHY people choose technology. Sometimes it's motivational, and it works a little like music does. Ever notice how it's sometimes easier to like a song or a genre of music where you've got peers excited about it, giving it context?
That is what happens with this stuff in a lot of cases. Not all cases of course. Nothing is absolute, but then again, nothing is pure either.
Also using the music analogy, ever notice how it's often difficult to just enjoy music with strong critics present? This stuff works like that too.
What I saw here was somebody looking to explore "the music" some, motivations, features, applicability. Can't that just happen? Seems to me it can, and why that must be tempered with the strong criticism is beyond me. There are times when that critical discussion is great, I happen to enjoy it for a lot of reasons. I enjoy this kind of discussion too, where finding points of resonance is happening. Doing that isn't making a blanket statement of superiority, nor is it diminishing other points of resonance, whatever they may be. It's just resonance, which is community, motivating, sometimes educational, and highly likely to be fun.
Just think about it some. And this post is in response to Kye asking the very valid question, "why do these threads get started?"
Took a day or so to sort it, but there you go. That's why. Consider doing the work to come to understand that.
-Phil
This thread has had several requests to be locked; we will be honoring that request and examining this thread for further moderation. I apologize for any broken conversations this may cause, please choose to pick-up any topic in an appropriate forum or discontinue conversation.
Locked by forum request and that of the OP.
Stay on topic:
Please maintain the integrity and focus of the original posters intent for their forums post; if a topic derails or if a thread is hijacked it will be subject to moderation. At anytime you feel the discussion requires further consideration on a specific topic it is okay to start a new thread for that purpose, so long as it adheres to the rules and intent of the Parallax Discussion Forums.
Contribute to the conversation:
Its good to agree and show your support, but please try to avoid posting useless information. If you dont have something to contribute then consider not posting. This ruling includes images, emoticons, and memes; they are wasteful on the servers and are subject to removal.
After careful consideration and a mild-application of pruning to this thread we will be reopening it for continued discussion pertaining to 'Your favorite features of the Propeller P8X32A multicored microprocessor chip.'
We understand that a conversation exists as call and response, we are not concerned with correcting or censoring that truth; however we cannot allow threads to be hijacked in a manner that does not honor the intent of the original post. If a burgeoning topic requires a more detailed discussion to help foster its growth, feel free to seed that conversation within the appropriate forum; this will not always be necessary, use discretion.
Please also keep in mind that these types of threads will, more often than not, cause a lot of digression from the topic. They are highly-subjective and open to interpretation and opinion. Many have noted this as 'preaching to the choir' and we agree, although we do enjoy hearing your praise about Parallax products. Remember that everyone uses our products differently, for some it is an intimate experience while for others it may just be a best fit.
I apologize ceasing the conversation until this correction could be made, please continue if you see fit.
Stay on topic.
Now, can we all remain on topic and to the thread's purpose as stated in my initial post. That is...
- Try and be concise about what feature(s) you like about the prop.
- The feature(s) can also be advantage(s) of the prop, so list them too.
- Where practical, give an example of the use of this/these feature(s)/advantage(s)
- List possible uses
- Attach code in a file, not embedded in the posting unless it is only a few lines
- Place obviously separate feature(s)/advantage(s) in a separate posting.
- Do not compare the feature(s) to other chips except generally.
- Do not start a comparison with other chips and don't name them either.
The purpose of this thread...- Disseminate possible feature(s)/advantage(s) others have not yet discovered.
- Disseminate methods to use those feature(s)/advantage(s).
- Possible use by Parallax as a marketing tool.
Ultimately if this thread evolves in the way that I would like it to, it could become a sticky... a good source or reference.What I would like to see here (in particular) is
- Counter usage and tips (links to other threads for better discussions)
- Anything you found particularly useful, particularly if it is complex on other chips (no need to reference this)
- A better way of doing something (like my thread about MUXC)
Please keep it concise, or link it to another thread if a discussion is likely or warranted.Right from the beginning the basic 3 --- keyboard, mouse, and video, especially color video.
You just can't find anything else that provides the ability to have all these together in one chip with such ease. Of course, that doesn't mean that I don't like the other features as they create a vast variety of choices.
But the BS2 never offered this level of user interface. And it has taken Parallax to a whole higher level as people have been able to create Propeller Basic, Propeller Forth, Propeller C, and so on with the accommodation of a real computer workstation in one rather inexpensive chip.
-Tor
I read the basic specs...
* microprocessor/microcontroller with 8 32-bit RISC cores
Next I quickly looked at the pasm (assembler) instruction set...
* really neat and regular instruction set
And the higher level language/interpreter is SPIN
* sort of a mix between C and Basic using forced indentation.
Now I am beginning to get hooked (I'm a techo Electronics Designer & Programmer of 40 yrs)
Then I took a quick look at the Forum...
* lots of active members
And the OBEX...
* lots of free examples to add all sorts of features
Gee, with an object + 2 I/O pins + 4 resistors...
* add a PS2 Keyboard or Mouse
And an object + 3-4 I/O pins + 3-4 resistors...
* add a Color Composite TV Monitor
And an object + 8 I/O pins + 8 resistors...
* add a Color VGA Monitor
A quick look at PropTool...
* So simple to write a program (no command line programs, no makefiles, etc)
* Virtually no setup registers to wade through for any initialisation
I am hooked! I ordered a pair of Propeller Proto Boards (no USB version back then, but I had an FTDI 2232 board so no need for the PropPlug) within a few hours of discovering the Propeller chip. Now the wait for shipping to Australia.
By the time the boards arrived from Parallax, I had read up what I could on the forums and other documents.
When they arrived, I did the simple examples that accompanied the PropTool download.
Fantastically simple. It was not long and I had my Leds flashing by different cogs, and with my modified timing.
Then I added the VGA connector (I didn't buy the VGA/PS2 combined connector so I just fitted a standard VGA connector angled so I could attach the VGA cable). Voila - the VGA Objects ran. This all in 1 day!!
I AM POSITIVELY HOOKED !!!
I have now designed and built the TriBlade which is a 3 Propeller pcb with 512KB of SRAM and microSD. This was used as the basis to get heaters ZiCog (Z80 emulation) and CPM2.2 running.
Since then I designed and built the RamBlade, a tiny 1.2"x1.9" pcb with a Propeller, 64KB Eeprom, 512KB 55ns SRAM, microSD and overclocked to 104MHz. This self-contained module runs ZiCog and CPM2.2 and uses either a PS2 Keyboard and monochrome composite video TV/monitor, or can be connected to another Propeller pcb serially to do all the various I/Os. Catalina, Sphinx and other Propeller OSes run on this board too.
I have assisted James in his DracBlade designs.
There is so much that can be done on this single chip. And there is still so much that has yet to be explored.
One of the huge advantages is that all the peripherals on the Propeller chip are defined by software and/or the counters. All I/O pins are identical and interchangeable, with only a few minor exceptions. No need to wade through a family of chips to find one with the right mix of peripherals. One day you could build the prop with 16 UARTs, the next with 8 SPI interfaces, and the following with 16 I2C busses, and the next, a variation of these and VGA or TV or both. Stereo has been done and various sound chips have been emulated.
I have never had a single chip that I can do so much with! It maybe expensive ($7.95 Qty 1) compared with some single purpose micros, but it is not when you consider what you can do with the "same" chip. And it is so easy to develop with. This is especially important when time to market is critical - because you can compartmentalise the various processes into different cores (cogs) so that interaction between these processes becomes a breeze.
Maybe now you can see why I AM HOOKED
The first thing I really liked was the manual. Real paper! I can scribble notes! I can stick bookmarks! I don't need to lug my desktop to read it! I'm in LOVE!!!
I worked through the examples in the manual, and shortly thereafter I tried my first project: a small (6 inch) foam-core Christmas tree with LEDs. The LEDs "twinkle" on and off, and the large white LED on the top fades from off to on and back using PWM. Getting the project going only took several hours; the code was a breeze to tweak -- once I figured out what happened to the FOR command!
The other thing I like is the font. It really helps to be able to pop a schematic into the code!
--Rich