BSA Merit Badge minimum equipment
prof_braino
Posts: 4,313
NOTE: Decided to recommend the Quickstart Boards ($25) for the minimum cost option for the pilot, and the TBot+12Blocks ($149) as the normal option when we get that far.
Hi All
Boy Scouts has a new merit badge discussed in thread
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?130913-Boy-Scouts-have-a-new-Merit-Badge
As it turns out, this is a fledgling effort, and much of the material (documentation, instructions, etc) is still a little rough. At best its confusing, at worst its nonsense.
For example, the hardware recommended is VEX, Mindstorms, and BOEBOT. At $160 BoeBot is cheapest, and while sufficient for robotic experiments, the cost is about ten times too high for most 12 year olds in my neighborhood.
I'm trying to determine the LEAST EXPENSIVE, MINIMUM HARDWARE. If I recall being a kid correctly, there was always a steady supply of broken toys from which parts (motors, IR sensors, gears, etc) could be harvested, so I'm going to assume for the moment that these items need not be purchased. So what I'm focusing on is the micro controller.
I have a certain bias towards the prop, so I would like start from the prop chip as an example of a minimum system. I'm going to assume the kid has access to a parents' minimum PC, for example a netbook.
My first thought is to use the Quickstart board ($20) and a breadboard ($8) total $28. Another alternative would be a bread board and 40 pin DIP prop, and the additional parts regulator eeprom etc which I did not price out yet.
Any more suggestions for a minimum prop hardware? I know there are several third party boards, but I don't have all the links in one place.
Thanks!
Hi All
Boy Scouts has a new merit badge discussed in thread
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?130913-Boy-Scouts-have-a-new-Merit-Badge
As it turns out, this is a fledgling effort, and much of the material (documentation, instructions, etc) is still a little rough. At best its confusing, at worst its nonsense.
For example, the hardware recommended is VEX, Mindstorms, and BOEBOT. At $160 BoeBot is cheapest, and while sufficient for robotic experiments, the cost is about ten times too high for most 12 year olds in my neighborhood.
I'm trying to determine the LEAST EXPENSIVE, MINIMUM HARDWARE. If I recall being a kid correctly, there was always a steady supply of broken toys from which parts (motors, IR sensors, gears, etc) could be harvested, so I'm going to assume for the moment that these items need not be purchased. So what I'm focusing on is the micro controller.
I have a certain bias towards the prop, so I would like start from the prop chip as an example of a minimum system. I'm going to assume the kid has access to a parents' minimum PC, for example a netbook.
My first thought is to use the Quickstart board ($20) and a breadboard ($8) total $28. Another alternative would be a bread board and 40 pin DIP prop, and the additional parts regulator eeprom etc which I did not price out yet.
Any more suggestions for a minimum prop hardware? I know there are several third party boards, but I don't have all the links in one place.
Thanks!
Comments
Protoboard USB ($29.95) + wall wart ($8) + breadboard ($8) = $46
Martin Hodge's Arduino Shield Compat. (ASC) @ 34.95 + breadboard or arduino Breadboard shield ($15) + wallwart ($8) = $58 solution that has USB connection but wallwart power.
WBA Consulting's M44D40 module $20) + Prop Plug ($14.95) plus breadboard ($8) = $43
Bang for the buck, the Quickstart (now $25) and a breadboard is the least expensive entry. The package I mentioned above gives you more flexibility and more hands on with circuits and assembly and hardware learning.
The trick could/will be finding a pack leader/sponsor that can help out when it comes to assembling things and guiding the little minds down the right paths and helping out when stuck and frustrated.
The USB port for communication and power is a tough feature/money saver to overlook.
It looks like someplace around $50 should get the kids going with a number of different options.
(No offense to anybody with a solution that I left out of consideration!)
Good market research
SpinSocket is a set of DIP32 Propeller solutions that can be operated with 2AA's, single cell LIPO, or with higher voltages depending on model. SpinSocket modules require a PropPlug. Prices are TBD at this point.
Is the expectation that each boy would buy the hardware for the merit badge, or would the council/camp/troop/merit badge advisor acquire a handful of bots that are used for the merit badge. I remember it both ways, I was not expected to purchase an axe for my toten chip badge. But I did have to purchase my car for pinewood derby in cub scouts... As the axe is reusable by the troop/camp where as the car is pretty much a one time thing...
I know the model railroad group I belong to has a number of guys that organizes the camps where the boy scouts work for their model railroad merit badge, I could see something similar for their robotics merit badge...
Just a thought
Jay
The only clear requirement is that each project involve a sensor and involve programming.
While the materials recommend several pre-built robots in kit form, (most?) troups will not buy each participant a BoeBot. Most robots will take longer than an hour for each of design, build debug, and test. Rather than second guess these obviously unpolished requirements, the thought is to describe some minimum set of requirements that might qualify as conditions for a "robot project" and see if the BSA docs can be interpreted or clarified (by BSA).
We guess that each participants' equipment should cost no more than $35. For this $35 we want to end up with a micro controller that can connect to an existing PC, and be programmed.
I thought I saw a prop chip mounted on a board for $12.99. Does anyone have a link for this or am I confused again?
Obviously, Scout Leadership has no concept or programming or Robotics...like MOST leaddership! In the time allowed (1 hour), the solution would be a QuickStart, a trial copy of 12-Blocks (or a few communal copies for the troop) plus a few communla robot frames to plug the Quick Start into (e.g. QuickBots (tm) ). This would allow a quick to learn, rapid prototyping environment to program on (12Blocks) and then some shared robot chassis to plug into for testing.
For $12.99, you can probably build a Prop basic system on a protoboard (Prop, EEPROM, caps, resistor, crystal) but that would take more than 1 hour to layout, wire and solder PLUS you still have the Prop Plug issues for programming.
{QuickBot is mine unless used before this posting
So we look like two main options:
1) buy a prebuilt Quickstart ($25) or similar;
2) build from parts i.e.
Prop $7.99
64KB EEPROM (SMT) Item code 602-10001 Price $1.99
10K ohm resistor 1/4 watt Item code 150-xxxxx Price $0.20
5MHz Crystal 20 pF HC-49/US Item code 251-05000 Price $1.10
FTDI FT232RL USB to Serial Chip Item code 604-00043 Price $4.50
2 @ LED (one red, one blue)
4 @ 150 Ohm
1 2 33K Ohm
1 @ 0.1uF
1 @ 10 nF
1 @ NPN transistor
(old USB cable)
LM2937ET-3.3 Voltage regulator $1.25
Both of these would end up about the same cost I guess?
The thought was that building the hardware (gathering the parts, gathering the tools, learning to solder) are important steps on the journey. Do these get included in the project, listed as prerequisites, handled separately, or other?
It was pointed out that there are issues with teaching other folks kids to solder; it should be a parent or other one-on-one tutoring rather than "heat up the irons and turn them loose" for group of 12 year olds.
We are thinking of having one or two prebuilt micro controllers (quickstart or similar) to use at the session, so the kids get to see what a finished item looks like and how it behaves. They would recieve a bag of parts (perhaps #2 above) to take home, and after the session they could build on their own time. Then the "built outs" would qualify them as participants in the debugging/troubleshooting sessions, and finally the programming sessions. Any suggestions on this?
I'm a huge supporter of improving STEM education with robotics. Earlier this year I gave a keynote talk at the Robotics conference on that subject. We've seen great results working with the TBot and 12Blocks (at $149 for the combo it should be a no-brainer for BSA- it's even made in America) We still have a few available from our first production batch- see here: http://onerobot.org
My team is now working on getting 12Blocks officially recognized in government curriculum- see some of the freely downloadable content here: http://onerobot.org/education.html
Putting some hardware together is the easy part- getting your typical over-committed kid hooked requires great software and supporting resources. I'd love to collaborate on other Propeller platforms for BSA- If you're interested please let me know!
Hanno
Many have Wii controllers these days. The Wii Controller cannot be easily used because it is the master. However, the daisy chained devices are simply interfaced as they are I2C...
- Wii Motion Controller (3 axis gyro) {~$10 on eBay)
- Wii Nunchuck (3 axis accelerometer + joystick/buttons) (~$4.50 on eBay)
- Wii Classic Controller Plus (has joysticks + buttons) (~$8.50 on eBay)
- Wii extension cable (use to connect to Wii devices and cut other end to fit to the propeller pcb) (~$2.60 on eBay)
other interfaces- SNES Gamepad Controller (buttons) (~$4.50 on eBay)
- Nintendo Touch Screen replacement (touch screen via 5 pins and sigmadelta ADC) (~$3.00 on eBay)
- Bluetooth USB (maybe too advanced) (~$1.50 on eBay)
Currently the cheapest way to get a PropPlug is to buy a board with this already on it (e.g. Propeller ProtoBoard USB). The FT232RL is way too fine pitch to expect these boys to be able to solder it.* the Parallax Propeller chip (P8X32-D40) in the easy to breadboard, easy to solder 40 pin DIP package
* a 24LC512 serial EEPROM, a full 64 KBytes not the usual 32 KB versions
* 5.0000 MHz crstal, which gives 80 MHz clock wil 16x PLL
* 3m brand dual wipe DIP sockets, 8 pin and 40 pin
* pushbutton reset switch
* 10k pullup resistor for SDA line on EEPROM
* two 0.1 uf capacitors
* 16 each of 1/8 watt carbon film series protection resistors in 1Kohm and 220 ohms
* Parallax Propeller chip sticker showing pin assignments
* a special LED that has the series current limiting resistor built-in. Handy for debugging, can be plugged to GND and an i/o pin by itself
* the Propeller requires a 3.3 volt power source. The kit includes a 9 volt transistor battery connector harness, a 3.3 volt regulator, and 2 47 uF capacitors, to build the power supply (user must supply his own battery)
I've built a couple of little boards with these that bring out all the I/O pins to a single 0.1" header strip that will plug into the edge of a breadboard. It's a quick way to gather all the basic parts you need.
* "Rock Bottom Propeller Kit" at Wulfden is appealing for low cost, and gaining experience in soldering. Maybe as an intro project? Of course, it
* TBot/12block is very appealing as a complete package for those demonstratins suffiecient skill/level of commitment. Thise would be an ideal option. The $150 combo price is clearly the best bang for the buck. Parents look a little "iffy" at $150 since I have not presented evidence of success. I will need to start gathering a portfolio of your work before I present to BSA (and the school board).
* Interfacing to Wii is very appealing for advanced skill project. Everybody has them, they are easy to get.
I'm still at the pilot stage. I'm focusing on the lowest cost start project, so I can demonstrate the more advanced efforts are worthwhile. This might be slow, so one step at a time.
The Chibot team is starting with a "make and take" session that should last no more than 1 hour. The plan includes a line sensor that can be used on a later robot. The line folower may be partly assembled and given to the participants as a take-away, to be completed at a later time. The session will include basic testing and analysis of the line follower on test rig. [Use VOM to determine "Sees line/doesn't see line"]
The actual BSA merit badge will likely take several sessions to achive. The "Make and Take" session is the pilot for the first session. The intent would be the subsequent session would build on the previoous sessiuon, and participants could join at any session appropriate to their ability. Ideally, the final program would be "ongoing" with new members joining as badges are awarded. The entire program would be turned over to the BSA leaders and counselors once the process is refined. My goal is to have a similar program that can be used in the schools, where the older kids help tutor the younger kids as new participants are added. The school program need not be tied to the BSA program, but ideas from one could be applicable to the other.
I'm thinking the success of the participants of testing the line follower will be one indicator.
Also, the success of the participants completing the assembly on their own time (and the number asking for help) will be another indicator.
For a next step, I would like to prepare a minimum cost microcontroller (prop is my bias) to attach to the line follower sensor. I'm thinking of the RBPK. I haven't worked out the PropPlug part yet. Maybe long term we will have a pool that can be borrowed until folks get a part with the FTDI included? The other choice is the Quickstart.
Please continue with the great suggestions. I want to start presenting to decision makers at the beginning of the school year, September time frame.
Please keep us posted on your progress! You have some excellent resources at Chibots for help with 12Blocks and TBot. Steve W gave an hour long presentation earlier this year on using 12Blocks to "program at the speed of thought" and Chad (designer of TBot) will be at UPENE with a bunch of them.
Hanno
@Prof B, the entry prices are very similar ($20-$30) for any of the micro-controllers. Arduinos need a built in USB or an FTDI chip thingie. You can get Arduino Nano and Micro boards but they are still around $18-$20 with a built in USB - they are EASY to breadboard.
Even the PicAXE chips have strange programming hardware with additional costs for the "standard" cable.
12Blocks is a very intriguing programming option that would be incredible to introduce programming and give results in a short time frame. I'm looking at it along with my PropFORTH studies. It's a fun environment I'm going to turn my daughter loose on as soon as we get some time........(and dad gets a TBot at UPENE!!)
Steve and Chad helped inspire me to start back in on this. It feels like all the parts are coming together faster and heading toward critical mass.
Of course, any micro controller may serve as an intro unit, and anyone that wants to use any particular device will be included. I actually have an ATmega128, but I couldn't get AMforth to run on it after version 3.7.
My bias is toward the prop, so that will be my "first example" since its convenient for me. There are few things I want to do that the prop does not handle, and very few alternatives if any that do more for a better price, and I have not found any processor that has more of the software that I want.
When I consider PropForth, 12blocks, the OBEX, and the forums versus the alteratives, the data keep pointing to the prop.
I may a bit biased- but I think should we should aim higher than an entry level "learn to solder" project. Soldering was an important technical skill years ago- today's kids need to learn how to script/program sophisticated behavior using powerful building blocks...
Hanno
Propeller on!!
I did a "Robot Camp" back in 2008 http://www.hey-hello.ca/tikiwiki/tiki-index.php?page=RobotCamp
After looking at various options at that time I chose the Parallax product
When you consider the whole education package needed
fantastic documentation by the manufacturer for tailored for different education levels
standard platform also produced by other vendors (should keep costs competitive)
and the many competitions held in various school districts.
and as it does pretty well everything the" Boebot" does so it's pretty well already approved by the BSA.
this should be the benchmark for any comparisons.
Perry
1. There is a USB-TTL plug (uses CP2102) and can be had in a small box for ~$4.60 on eBay (pcb w/o box slightly cheaper). However, it does not bring out DTR (or RTS) but does bring out 5V & 3V3 at low currents. Now, the RST is an input to the chip but the track can be cut and a wire can be placed from the chips DTR to the RST pin. However, this is a tiny QFN chip and the soldering is very fine and not to be attempted by someone without lots of experience. As soon as I get a chance I am going to look at this.
Has anyone used a CP2102? If so, does it work to the prop OK?
2. Anyone tried an ATTiny84 with USB (non-compliant LS) to the prop for downloading? I am going to try this shortly. Its a cheap chip available in DIP.
see here http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?133335-Cheap-PropPlug-replacement-USB-TTL-converter-US-4.60-and-a-modification
Yes to the above. But I have to go one step at a time...
I am approaching this as a large project with several sections with separate requirements. I figure the "Hannos" of the world are already committed, understand the full picture and are ready to invest whatever is required to maximize the child's learning. Its the REST of the world I'm addressing, the "Brainos" of the world. These guys have five thumbs on each hand, and reach for a hammer to fix the TV set. From the start, they know less about electronics than their kid, and are hesitant to buy Zhu-Zhu pets or other expensive, annoying Smile that doesn't have an "off" switch. (Having had prior experience with Furbee). They have no reason to think this is not another "Furbee event". (Remember how those things would not turn off and would squeak all night? I wonder how many more mysteriously vanished after waking the house up after the kids went to bed....)
The TBot packet is of course the logical choice for those that can afford it, and the Sumobot kit is another excellent choice for those that want the competition route. To me, this is a later step.
The first step is gathering participants, and get them up to speed so they are ready for the more expensive, more advanced kits. After 5 years, NONE of the kids, parents, or schools in my area (that I know of) has purchased any micro controller. The perception is "if Braino's doing it, its too complex and expensive for a kid". So what I'm looking for, ONLY AS a FIRST STEP, is the absolute lowest cost prop rig to get kids started. Kids that demonstrate interest and progress will have a much easier time asking for a TBot; I will have an easier time asking a Scout Troop or School district if I can identify kids that are "already started". I
I'm brainstorming here: Ideally, the bare minimum starter kit would have a prop chip and a bread board. The kid would bread board power and clock, and after it works, solder it to the board. Soldering is not the primary goal, but one gets a magical feeling of accomplishment when one build something and it works. This unit then becomes the basis for flashing an LED, reading a sensor, and writing programs. Kids that reach this level could easily get a TBot for the Intermediate Level.
Starter Rig: Right now, the default choice for a starter rig is the Quickstart board and a bread board. I have a pile of breadboards I can lend/give-away. I would prefer a less-than-$25-bag-of-parts that the kids would build themselves. Is such a kit possible? I'm thinking that it MUST run off a USB port, so does not need a 5v regulator?
Cluso99 and BrianRiley have units that look very close. Anybody have more input on "Lowest Cost Starter Rig"? I think the main criterion is lowest cost, and USB operation. Can this be had for less than $25?
Yes - must run off USB port. Otherwise kit is useless if you share a propplug. Cheaper to use USB power because you can buy 240V/110V to USB power supply cheaply if you don't have access to laptop or you can probably use a 6V battery supply.
Possibly yes. Need to think a bit here. I taught my kids to solder and computers and electronics at a very young age. My eldest used to show off our Apple //c and paint at the age of 3-4. They all worked at an electronics assembly house while at school, my daughter included. My youngest is now 27 and a teacher.
So, push button switches and leds, both with wires and pin headers attached, can be had from old computers - no cost
They should be encouraged to be resourceful too. So modifying something cheap (such as the USB-TTL on eBAY) would be good too??
Am I on the right track???
While I agree with all the above, the current BSA leadership gave the impression that they are recommending the BoeBot, VEX, or Mindstorms as the STARTER kit; and the kids are not expected to soil their dainty fingers with scrounging parts. This is probably an incorrect impression, and hopefully will be changed, but for now its all we have to go on. (I was not party to the actual conversation, this was how it was reported to me).
That said, my plan is to get them started with a "bare prop", and then have them scrounge everything until the folks get them a TBot+12blocks bundle. So, YES, Cluso99 is on the right track, I think.
I know MY kids are not permitted to buy ANYTHING off Ebay (too young). I make the same assumption for other kids, so I think I am going to have to find or arrange for a kit that includes all the pieces and is a single purchase point for all the parts, for the time being.
The USB-TTL part discussed on another thread http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?133335-Cheap-PropPlug-replacement-USB-TTL-converter-US-4.60-and-a-modification is the current front-runner for prop-to-PC communications. This part (around $5) plus Brian Riley's Rock Bottom Propeller Kit (RBPK) http://www.wulfden.org/TheShoppe/prop/rbpk.shtml ($15) comes in at $20 without the shipping. $22 with shipping. This is already insanely low. Can this go lower? I would also like the source to make at least a small profit, if this catches on there could potentially be a million boy scouts looking to buy one each. How much does one need to make on a part like this? Is a dollar too high/too low?
What would a parts list be for a "bare prop module"? A prop, a CP2102, a 3.3v regulator, a 64K EEPROM, and some passive parts? Could this be in a bag as a breadboard-to-solder kit for under $20? Or would this be a variation on a Cluso99 1x1 propboard?
VEX products are incredibly expensive in the range of $300.00 and their link to their BSA offering is broken (404)
mindstorms have a decent web page http://www.legoeducation.us/eng/Misc/boyscouts.cfm?paID=4668 their base set is $295.00
and of course Parallax's offer http://www.parallax.com/tabid/928/Default.aspx boebot $160
boy's life magazine find a robot kithttp://boyslife.org/about-scouts/merit-badge-resources/robotics/19254/find-a-robotics-kit/
but this merit badge site gives the definitive information on what the BSA expectshttp://meritbadge.org/wiki/index.php/Robotics
I think this quote from the last page referenced says what the minimum requirements of a project would be
Suggestions "Etcha sketch" or "labyrinth" game
or next level three degrees would be breadboard on a two wheeled chassis
Perry
And with 12Blocks it's easy for even young kids to get started.
Here's what you get for $149 assembled (lipo battery is $15 extra, shipping within US another $10
Processors: Parallax Propeller and AVR ATMEGA328 (same as Arduino)
Sensors: 5 line detectors and 6 proximity sensors
IR tranceiver
Geared motors with encoders
Amplified speaker with speech synthesis
Microphone
Programmable over USB or optional wireless
Can communicate with each other to form swarms
Full-color LED, 2 user switches, status LEDs
10 pin expansion port with 6 hi-speed digital and 2 analog
Optional lithium battery can be charged via USB
Easily programmable with drag and drop by 12Blocks
Metal platform is compatible with Meccano, Vex and Lego parts
Curriculum
Hanno
TBot+12Blocks continues to be the kit of choice, it definitely has the best bang for the buck.
What we really need at this point is "evidence of prior success". I know I saw several articales in various places describing some of the events and results your achieved.There are several separate sites for Hanno, 12blocks, One Robot, etc; and various articles in many sources, newspapers, jupournals, youtobe, etc.
Are these or can these be collected into a single "index page"? It would make pitching the kit a LOT easier.
What do you guys think? Would any of accept or not accept a $150 entry price for you kid's robotics project?
Should I scrap the $20 "intro kit concept" and go directly to TBot+12blocks?
PLease Reply! I need input here!
I could also see some coolness in going from a bag of strange parts to a working "knight rider" LED display or something like that to get the "builder" blood flowing...but hen I don't understand kids these days and ours didn't come with an owner's manual!
For an after school robotics club, I wouldn't see the $150 as a problem once they've shown a couple of week's interest in the project. It's similar to the costs for soccer kit, or a dance class, etc.
Yes, this is the single line I've found in all the materials that actually states testable requirements.
The Chibot team is creating session on a line-follower kit "sensor" that can be connected to any micro controller. The session(s) will include connecting the unit to a test rig, and recording data in an "engineering notebook". The idea is that the kid get san idea of what a working unit does and how it behaves, and gets an idea of what is meant by "engineering notebook" and how it is used.
The part I am looking at is the "programming and two degrees of freedom". I need to determine the "minimum necessary and sufficient" conditions to fulfill this. A "bare prop module" and a couple harvested motors would meet this. My thought is that this would demonstrate (to the parent) the kid's level on interest, and provide a basis for purchasing a more complete rig (i.e. TBot+12blocks), and justify the greater expense. .
The "minimum necessary and sufficient" is the critical point here. If we can focus on this, it opens the possibility to more kids, not just the rich kids with smart parents.
- http://onerobot.org/overview.pdf: 1 Page Overview for TBot
- http://12blocks.com/cheatsheet.pdf: 1 Page Overview for 12Blocks
- http://12blocks.com/resources.php: Index of Resources for 12Blocks
Hanno