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Upgrading from the BS2 — Parallax Forums

Upgrading from the BS2

piguy101piguy101 Posts: 248
edited 2011-07-12 12:29 in Propeller 1
I am planning on getting the Propeller as an upgrade from the BS2, but unfortunately there are so many different Props I do not know what to get, but I think I have limited it down to four options:

The 40 pin DIP
http://www.parallax.com/Store/Microcontrollers/PropellerChips/tabid/142/ProductID/332/List/1/Default.aspx?SortField=ProductName,ProductName

The PropStick USB
http://www.parallax.com/StoreSearchResults/tabid/768/List/0/SortField/4/ProductID/411/Default.aspx?txtSearch=prop+stick

The Propeller Demo Board
http://www.parallax.com/StoreSearchResults/tabid/768/txtSearch/propeller/List/0/SortField/4/ProductID/340/Default.aspx

Or, so I don't have to learn a new programming language, the Stamp 2px
http://www.parallax.com/StoreSearchResults/tabid/768/txtSearch/stamp/List/0/SortField/4/catpageindex/3/ProductID/392/Default.aspx


Please tell me which one you think I should buy. Thank you.

Comments

  • Bobb FwedBobb Fwed Posts: 1,119
    edited 2011-07-11 12:52
    It's a good idea to start with a pre-assembled system like the demo board, so you don't worry about hardware assembly problems. But once familiar with the software side, it's probably preferable to use the the DIP; then you can more easily customize circuits and experiment with hardware on a breadboard.

    I would definitely encourage you to learn SPIN. It will do you a great service in the long run.
  • piguy101piguy101 Posts: 248
    edited 2011-07-11 12:57
    Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I think the DIP version or the PropStick has 32 I/O pins but the demo board only gives you acess to 16 I/O pins. But then the demo board would be a lot easier because it is assembled.
  • Bobb FwedBobb Fwed Posts: 1,119
    edited 2011-07-11 13:11
    Actually, now that I look at it, only 8 IOs are available on the demo board, but it comes with circuitry pre-built for audio, video, PS/2, and some LEDs.

    Tough call. I started with a demo board (don't think it was that one), and I quickly moved to the DIP.

    There is always the Professional Development Board: http://www.parallax.com/StoreSearchResults/tabid/768/txtSearch/propeller/List/0/SortField/4/catpageindex/2/ProductID/515/Default.aspx

    I think you could start with the DIP (if you are comfortable with some breadboard hardware assembly). Just keep in mind, you'll need a few more discrete parts to go along with the Prop (EEPROM, regulator, crystal, capacitors -- both filter and decoupling), and you'll need a PropPlug,
  • piguy101piguy101 Posts: 248
    edited 2011-07-11 13:20
    So the Prop demo board probably is a no. So now it is between the PropStick or the regular Prop...I'm fine with a lot a breadboard work if and only if I can set the parts in the board and don't really have to ever move them much. It seems that the PropStick has all vital components on it and just wiring power and the interpreting stuff is needed, is that correct?
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2011-07-11 13:24
    Yes, that is a though call. I first got the Demo Board because there are so many Objects already written for it. Just Plug and Play. The Demo Board lets you play with a lot of outboard peripherals without having to buy them and then jumper them up on a breadboard.

    That said, after you have played with the Demo Board for a couple of months, maybe less, you will want a Propeller Professional Development Board to do larger projects. Then you will want a Proto Board to do dedicated projects after you mock things up on the PPDB.

    Start with the Demo board, then budget for MUCH more later on!
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2011-07-11 13:27
    piguy101 wrote: »
    So the Prop demo board probably is a no. So now it is between the PropStick or the regular Prop...I'm fine with a lot a breadboard work if and only if I can set the parts in the board and don't really have to ever move them much. It seems that the PropStick has all vital components on it and just wiring power and the interpreting stuff is needed, is that correct?

    If you are leaning towards the PropStick, then the Propeller Education Kit might fit the bill:

    http://www.parallax.com/StoreSearchResults/tabid/768/txtSearch/PEK/List/0/SortField/4/ProductID/506/Default.aspx
  • WBA ConsultingWBA Consulting Posts: 2,936
    edited 2011-07-11 13:31
    It really depends on your goals for learning/using the propeller. The 40 pin DIP allows you to use a breadboard which gives you easy access for building projects, but requires more breadboard real estate for all of the support circuitry. The Propstick USB, can go on a breadboard and gives you the support circuitry already. It's downfalls are a non-DIP40 pinout (easily ignored) and cost (but that's not an issue since you are comparing to a BS2). The DemoBoard is great for learning many aspects of the Propeller and makes it easy to load existing code from the forums and OBEX. The DemoBoard's downfall is lack of access to I/O pins utilized elsewhere on the board, so you only have 8 to use unless you are using circuits on the board.

    I got my start with the Propeller from a DemoBoard that I got from UPEW a few years ago. It was by far the easiest way for me because I learn by hacking. It was very easy to load various programs into the demoboard, watch them work, then start tweaking code to see the changes immediately. After building numerous projects on my demoboard, I bought a Propeller Professional Development Board because I intended on making many propeller based projects. The PPDB enables me to build a project quickly, test it out, and make headway with code before I start building the final project from a Protoboard, GG Propeller Platform board, one of my M44D40+ modules, or on a piece of perfboard.

    On that note, don't forget the USB Protoboard, the Gadget Gangster Propeller Platform board (or the startup kit which is still only $79.99), and the Propeller Education Kit. I am working a small startup kit from my M44D40+ module and a PowerTwig for $25. Add in a breadboard and a prop-plug, and you are ready to start using the Propeller.

    Also, there are other threads with basically the same question, so you may want to search the forums for more insight as to what people's opinions are on starting with the Propeller.
  • piguy101piguy101 Posts: 248
    edited 2011-07-11 13:49
    I would bet that I will end up buying the PPDB eventually (Probably about a year or less after getting the Prop), but the price of that sets me off. My only concern is if I get the Prop demo board to start off with, I would feel like it would be a downgrade from the BS2 because less I/O pins even though 8 pins should still be plenty for whatever I want to do. I will probably get the PropStick in the kit so I can learn to use it. Are there any downsides of the PropStick?
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2011-07-11 13:56
    QuickStart! QuickStart! QuickStart!

    - $20
    - powered from USB port (no extra external power to just "play")
    - 8 buttons
    - 8 LEDs
    - all 40 pins brought out to a 40 pin female connector
    - small
    - did I mention $20???
  • PJAllenPJAllen Banned Posts: 5,065
    edited 2011-07-11 13:58
    Your list of options did not include the Spin Stamp.
    You only get access to 16 of the I/O pins, but I think it's the best, most cost-effective (??) intro to the Propeller, especially for anyone making the transition from the BASIC Stamp.

    http://www.parallax.com/StoreSearchResults/tabid/768/List/0/SortField/4/ProductID/448/Default.aspx?txtSearch=spin+stamp

    I think that sales jumped when they lowered the price.
    As it is, you'll have to get a PropClip, too.
    If you're handy enough you can solder a right-angle SIP header and use a PropPlug (that's what I do.)
  • PublisonPublison Posts: 12,366
    edited 2011-07-11 14:16
    @MindRobots

    The Quickstart is a perfect platform. Us oldies tend to forget the new stuff, just relate to the stuff we have on our bench.

    @PJ

    Yes, now that you wrestled the marketing dept down to $29.99, (my personal thanks for that!), it is a viable solution for upgrading to the Propeller. 16 I/O's available.
  • JonnyMacJonnyMac Posts: 9,229
    edited 2011-07-11 14:25
    I am planning on getting the Propeller as an upgrade from the BS2

    Be sure to *upgrade* your mindset with your microprocessor. The BS2 -- a wonderful piece of gear -- is single-threaded, hence forces us to think in a singular, linear fashion. Not so with the Propeller, and this is the biggest hurdle BS2-to-Propeller transitions run into. Do yourself a favor: keep the logic you learned with the BS2 in place, but leave the programming style behind and learn the Propeller as-is. Yes, there is a BS2 object that one would think is helpful; in my opinion, it just slows one's ultimate progress toward taking real advantage of the Propeller's horsepower.
  • Bobb FwedBobb Fwed Posts: 1,119
    edited 2011-07-11 14:53
    JonnyMac wrote: »
    Be sure to *upgrade* your mindset with your microprocessor. The BS2 -- a wonderful piece of gear -- is single-threaded, hence forces us to think in a singular, linear fashion. Not so with the Propeller, and this is the biggest hurdle BS2-to-Propeller transitions run into. Do yourself a favor: keep the logic you learned with the BS2 in place, but leave the programming style behind and learn the Propeller as-is. Yes, there is a BS2 object that one would think is helpful; in my opinion, it just slows one's ultimate progress toward taking real advantage of the Propeller's horsepower.
    +1
  • StefanL38StefanL38 Posts: 2,292
    edited 2011-07-11 15:18
    I would like to ask some questions to get it clearer what will fit your needs:

    Do you have a specific project in mind you want to realise?

    Do you want to learn SPIN first before starting specific projects?
    If you have a specific project does it need simple digital IO-pins to switch on/off things or are you doing something more complex?

    What's the level of your knowledge about electronics - beginner / medium / professional?

    Does 50 dollars more or less matter or not?

    Do you mind soldering some through-hole-parts together on a "dot-matrix" PCB ?

    Some advantages/disadvantages

    If you damage a Prop-Stick $50 are gone. If you damage a DIP40 just $8 are gone.

    me personally I started with a a bare DIP40, EEPROM, chrystal MAX2333 and a standard USBtoRS232 converter
    So I started with spending $25

    First all connected on a breadboard, then all soldered together on a "dot-matrix"-PCB
    This board is still working fine. If you assemble hardware-extensions on small breadboards you can store them on the shelf and don't have to rip the components of each time you want to try something new.

    keep the questions coming
    best regards

    Stefan
  • piguy101piguy101 Posts: 248
    edited 2011-07-11 16:22
    @Stefan
    I have no specific project in mind, but I would like at least 16 I/O pins because if I want to use a parallel quad digit display that takes around 10 pins.
    Can I learn SPIN as I do projects? (Like the What's a Microprocessor book)
    I think my level of electronics it quite high. I know all about some of those crazy Analog Digital ICs, heck once, before I had the BS2, I built an 8-bit infrared remote with a few comparators and a ton of NAND gates with all CMOS logic. But, my knowledge of microprocessors and micro controllers is not too high; all I know is how to program is the BS2.
    I'd say my max dollar amount for a micro is around $100
    I am not the greatest solderer for wires and I think the 0.1 in spacing in DIPs is too close for me to solder without soldering the leads together.

    @MindRobots What is the flaw in the quickstart that makes it $20, what is it missing?
  • JonnyMacJonnyMac Posts: 9,229
    edited 2011-07-11 16:37
    What is the flaw in the quickstart that makes it $20, what is it missing?

    No flaw, it's a low-cost marketing tool designed to make it easy for engineers to try the Propeller wit low or no (for qualifies pros) investment.
  • mindrobotsmindrobots Posts: 6,506
    edited 2011-07-11 17:22
    Nick (Gadget Gangster) and Jeff (OldBitCollector) have a Kindle Book on Amazon ($2.99) http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Started-Propeller-ebook/dp/B004X6U6II/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1310429431&sr=1-1
    which features the GadgetGangster Propeller Platform USB ($50). This card has a lot of features built in and is offered in 3 different packages from Parallax. The book is a good intro to Propeller Programming and has a lot of good examples, projects and code examples.

    The PE-Kit (either version) is a good starting package. You get to build EVERYTHING from scratch! All the Propeller documentation and software is available online from Parallax. The OBEX is full of code examples (reading other's code is good once you get the basics under your hat).

    JonnyMac has a great series of Propeller based articles and projects in Nuts & Volts (The Spin Zone) - and available on the Parallax site.

    Resources abound!!! Once you understand the hardware layout of the platform you end up with, most of the software can be adjusted (pin numbers) to work on it.

    Too many choices can be a good thing or a bad thing. Don't be paralyzed by analysis.

    For $20 -$100 you can be learning the Prop - a quantum leap beyond the BS2.

    Now, get out there and play and learn!!!
  • StefanL38StefanL38 Posts: 2,292
    edited 2011-07-11 17:34
    0,1 inch is quite easy to solder if you use a 15W solder iron with a small pin (diameter 1 mm)

    Something like that
    http://www.reichelt.de/Lochraster-Loetpunkte/H25PR160/index.html?;ACTION=3;LA=444;GROUP=C931;GROUPID=3372;ARTICLE=8272;START=0;SORT=artnr;OFFSET=100;SID=15YYoUvtS4AQ8AAG3eavQ8bb72a2d5a9813a1ea1edd6ed9b9c869

    All holes are separated from each other. After one hour of practice you know how to do it without connecting leads together.

    Kits with solder-stop are even easier to solder as the name says it. All parts of the pcb except the wholes are covered with a special film "solder-stop"
    that does not attract fluid solder.

    If you solder sockets for all chips you can't overheat the chips and they are easy to change.
    keep the questions coming
    best regards

    Stefan
  • piguy101piguy101 Posts: 248
    edited 2011-07-12 09:49
    I think if I post a needs/wants list for a micro it may limit the list down.

    The micro needs to have an extensive manual of it with projects showing new concepts, I would like if the micro has at least 32 bytes of RAM, at least 16 kilobytes of EEPROM or some other type of non-volatile memory, at least 16 I/O pins, under $100 for all of the parts needed to make it work, and please not surface mount.
  • StefanL38StefanL38 Posts: 2,292
    edited 2011-07-12 11:42
    OK I do a comparison between your minimum requirments and the propeller-chip

    RAM
    minimum requirement 32 bytes (I guess 32 variables) Propeller-Chip 32-thousand bytes organised as longs (32bits = 4 bytes each meaning you have space for 8-thousand variables

    EEPROM minimum requirement16 kB. Propeller 32 kB very easy to extent up to 64kB

    IO-pins: minimum requirement16 IO-pins: Propeller 16 to 32 IO-pins. depending on the board

    Gadget Gangster Propeller Platform (Kit) $35, Prop-plug $15, Powersupply stabilised 7.5V 1000 mA $10 Summary $60 to get started
    the kit is easy to solder

    advantage easy to change DIP40 Propeller-Chip



    If you prefer a preassembled board
    gadget gangster Propeller Platform USB $50 Powersupply stabilised 7.5V 1000 mA $10 Summary $60 to get started

    advantage: SD-card-socket USB-to-serial converter integrated into the board.

    or the quickstart board $25 out of stock at the moment
    http://www.parallax.com/tabid/768/txtSearch/quickstart/List/0/SortField/4/Default.aspx

    To start experimenting with additional hardware proces start at 10 cents for a simple LED and end at $xxx depending on what you want to do

    there is the manual with code example and the PE Kit labs.
    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?89958-Propeller-Education-Kit-Labs-Tools-and-Applications

    I guess you should take time and read some chapters to be able if you find it understandable

    to know it for real you have to buy and try

    keep the questions coming
    best regards

    Stefan
  • PJAllenPJAllen Banned Posts: 5,065
    edited 2011-07-12 11:48
    I think that the Gadget Gangster board is the preferred platform.

    http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?131530-Parallax-Semiconductor-backs-Gadget-Gangster-as-a-standard-platform&highlight=Gangster

    When you come back to ask for help, you just mention that you have the GG board and then everyone knows that they can take all of the non-standard (cheapskate-kluge) considerations (maybe it's this or that, the power, wiring, decoupling, crystal, ad nauseam) off the table.
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2011-07-12 12:00
    Your requirement for an extensive manual with projects demonstrating new concepts is going to be a problem. It's not that manuals and projects don't exist. It's just that there are several, some in print and PDF form and some, like the Propeller Education Kit tutorials and the new application notes are distributed in several manuals/files associated with projects. Along with this is that the Propeller introduces many new concepts over the Stamps, anything from video generation and stereo speech synthesis to multiprogramming and SD card FAT file system use.

    You seem to want an easy to use complete package like the Stamps. The closest equivalents include the SpinStamp+PropClip which has 16 I/O pins available plus 3 more to sort of work like the Stamp's built-in serial port. Because this runs off 3.3V rather than the 5V of the Stamps, it's not strictly compatible with some RS232 serial ports which is why Parallax doesn't claim that it works. I've not had problems using it with Parallax's USB to serial (RS232) adapter. The 2nd close equivalent is the USB PropStick.

    Both the SpinStamp+PropClip and the USB PropStick include a 32K EEPROM for program storage and a crystal (10MHz and 5MHz respectively). All you need to use them is a USB cable and a 5 to 9V power source.

    The QuickStart board is a better deal. You can power it off USB and it includes the USB adapter. It's not a tiny module like the Stamps although it is pretty small and way cheaper than either of the above choices. It has an extra 32K of EEPROM and will be used as the basis for future projects, application notes and hardware add-ons.
  • piguy101piguy101 Posts: 248
    edited 2011-07-12 12:04
    Here is another question: The BS2 can only do variables up to a word in size, can the Propeller or any of the other micros do variables larger than words?

    Note: The BS2 can only do variables up to a word in size, but with complicated coding you can use two word-sized variables to act as a large 32-bit variable.
  • Mike GreenMike Green Posts: 23,101
    edited 2011-07-12 12:29
    The Propeller does all of its arithmetic with 32 bit integers. Variables can be 32-bits, 16-bit, or 8-bits and you can have arrays of any of these sizes. Have a look at the Propeller Manual or any of the introductory tutorials for examples.

    The Propeller also has a floating point library that lets you do single precision floating point at a very reasonable speed (a few microseconds per operation).
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