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Sick of Linux and WinCE !! — Parallax Forums

Sick of Linux and WinCE !!

plainsteveplainsteve Posts: 33
edited 2011-06-29 13:21 in General Discussion
</rant>

I'm looking for a job and everywhere I look I see "Linux BSP experience preferred", "Must have knowledge of WinCE build process", "Senior Android developer wanted", "Experience with RTOS like embedded Linux required", ad naseum.

(Senior Android developer? Has Android been around long enough to have senior-level devs?? WTH? embedded Linux is an RTOS?)

I have absolutely zero desire to work on colossal pains in the @$$ like Linux and WinCE. I see increasing numbers of Linux job posts and feel I am going the way of the dinosaur. Some discussion has already occured on this forum about the growing waistline of Linux(es). I want no part of it. I love the real embedded world with PICs and Propellers and manageable ARM7/9 microcontrollers and am happy to have Linux and WinCE NOT in job descriptions I'm looking at. I LOVE YOU FreeRTOS!

Am I wrong? Am I destined for food stamps?

</rant>

Comments

  • Luis DigitalLuis Digital Posts: 371
    edited 2011-06-26 16:51
    Maybe "The year of Linux on the desktop" has arrived. lol
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2011-06-26 19:07
    More like year of the Linux tablet in disguise as Android is pretty neat. I recently picked up a used eLocity A7 off eBay and I like Android quite a bit, but like Linux (and unlike Windows or iOS) you have multiple flavors of the same OS. That makes it tough to be certain a program will work for your device. It most likely will, but sometimes they don't.

    At my job the business is starting to see dollar signs in mobile apps. But they can't get over the fact that iOS, Android, and Windows Phone 7 all use proprietary languages which will require us to re-implement the same program for each platform.
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2011-06-26 22:39
    plainsteve wrote: »
    </rant>

    I'm looking for a job and everywhere I look I see "Linux BSP experience preferred", "Must have knowledge of WinCE build process", "Senior Android developer wanted", "Experience with RTOS like embedded Linux required", ad naseum.

    (Senior Android developer? Has Android been around long enough to have senior-level devs?? WTH? embedded Linux is an RTOS?)

    Not sure about Android but Linux has had real time extensions for a few years now.
    I have absolutely zero desire to work on colossal pains in the @$$ like Linux and WinCE. I see increasing numbers of Linux job posts and feel I am going the way of the dinosaur. Some discussion has already occured on this forum about the growing waistline of Linux(es). I want no part of it. I love the real embedded world with PICs and Propellers and manageable ARM7/9 microcontrollers and am happy to have Linux and WinCE NOT in job descriptions I'm looking at. I LOVE YOU FreeRTOS!

    Linux seems to be evolving in both directions at once. The server and desktop systems are getting larger and more complex to support new devices, buses, and the internet. At the same time there are stripped down versions with real time capability that can also be embedded.
    Am I wrong? Am I destined for food stamps?</rant>

    Maybe so. Probably not a bad idea to take a look at some of the real time/embedded linuxes. Some folks actually enjoy working with them.
  • davidsaundersdavidsaunders Posts: 1,559
    edited 2011-06-26 23:46
    I can not speak for any one else. I have yet to see a Linux implementation that will run with less than 300KB of memory, this is not embedded, this is not embedded. If you wish to port a unixon to the embedded world then you have MiNT, Unix System 5, Minix 2, and a few flavors of BSD that can be cut down far enough. If you want a good Real Time OS for the embedded world, write your own. If you need a user friendly embedded OS there is FreeDOS+FreeGEM, MrOS (the Pascal one not the more comen one), Syllable and a few others. iOS, Linux, Droid, PalmOS, BeOS EM, etc are not embedded OSes.
  • davidsaundersdavidsaunders Posts: 1,559
    edited 2011-06-26 23:48
    Heck Linux, iOS, Windows embedded, and Windows CE are of such complexity and bloat as to not even be a desktop OS though rather a modern Mainframe OS.
  • plainsteveplainsteve Posts: 33
    edited 2011-06-27 08:57
    davidsaunders said:
    I have yet to see a Linux implementation that will run with less than 300KB of memory

    Wow! That's pretty good for Linux, but yes...not embedded. I agree. Perhaps someone can chime in on how much memory (RAM and non volatile) the "embedded" Linuxes require.
  • Peter KG6LSEPeter KG6LSE Posts: 1,383
    edited 2011-06-27 10:05
    People are whining about how much Ram and flash a embedded system needs like its 1993 and a 512K flash is $600 a chip .


    Its 2011 If the a RTOS needs 16 Megs then do it ! . as for flash SLC and MLC chips are not that much .

    Small Embedded Computer

    You want small ? http://www.toms.net/rb/


    peter
  • Paul Sr.Paul Sr. Posts: 435
    edited 2011-06-27 10:54
    plainsteve wrote: »
    </rant>

    (Senior Android developer? Has Android been around long enough to have senior-level devs?? WTH? embedded Linux is an RTOS?)

    </rant>

    Well sure, OFFSHORE has LOTS of Senior Level ..... anything.......... just ask them......
  • plainsteveplainsteve Posts: 33
    edited 2011-06-27 11:07
    Paul Sr.
    Well sure, OFFSHORE has LOTS of Senior Level ..... anything.......... just ask them......

    That's a different rant, Paul! lol I'm moving to Bangladesh. (jk)
  • kiiidkiiid Posts: 16
    edited 2011-06-27 23:55
    plainsteve wrote: »
    I love the real embedded world with PICs and Propellers and manageable ARM7/9 microcontrollers and am happy to have Linux and WinCE NOT in job descriptions I'm looking at.
    </rant>

    Yeah... Finally someone has the guts to tell the truth: we, the old world embedded developers are all dooooooomed! The happy days of developing for fun are gone. Now it's only freezing cold business.
    I've personally always believed that just three companies should have never existed and the would would have been a much prettier place. Those are Intel, Microsoft and ARM. Especially the last one!!!
  • davidsaundersdavidsaunders Posts: 1,559
    edited 2011-06-28 07:14
    Peter:
    Now the complaint is that these are not embedded systems. Yes you can easily build a system with multi MB of ram that costs almost nothing, this is just a small computer, not an embedded computer. In the 1980s and 1990s we would build small 8086 and 80286 computers that would fit in an outlet case, these were still PCs and we did not call them embedded, this is what you are suggesting, yes you can build very small computers with much RAM, this does not make them an 'Embedded System'.
  • prof_brainoprof_braino Posts: 4,313
    edited 2011-06-28 09:56
    davidsaunders wrote: »
    If you want a good Real Time OS for the embedded world, write your own.

    I suggest start with FORTH, most if the work is well documented and already in place. 4k is typical on most processors.
    plainsteve wrote: »
    "Experience with RTOS like embedded Linux required", ad naseum.
    I have absolutely zero desire to work on colossal pains in the @$$ like Linux and WinCE... Am I wrong? Am I destined for food stamps?

    Its a quality of life issue. If you "just want a job", then you get what you get; typically that is working for management that does not understand the engineering and puts in place constraints that guarantee failure. IF you want a job you can live with, you have to know in great detail what this involves (a great dealmore parameters than "RTOS", "WindowsCE"), and be will to wait until you find such a job. Typically I have to "invent my own position". Wife is not please dwith gaps in income, but ulcers have gone away.

    Food stamps sounds like a good idea.... :)
  • Peter KG6LSEPeter KG6LSE Posts: 1,383
    edited 2011-06-28 22:53
    davidsaunders wrote: »
    Peter:
    Now the complaint is that these are not embedded systems. Yes you can easily build a system with multi MB of ram that costs almost nothing, this is just a small computer, not an embedded computer. In the 1980s and 1990s we would build small 8086 and 80286 computers that would fit in an outlet case, these were still PCs and we did not call them embedded, this is what you are suggesting, yes you can build very small computers with much RAM, this does not make them an 'Embedded System'.



    what defines embedded . ?
    "damn small and has practacaly no boot time and is normaly used in liue of a large PIC "?

    where do we define a microcontroller . the old macs used m68030's as a CPU So do the Allen bradly SLC500s use it as a microntroller in a PLC .
    What iam saying is the normal lines of what is defined as embeded and not is no longer a drawn line .

    those who learn that the world of SW is never going to get any leaner or smaller will do well .

    you may never see in 2 years a embedded system that is not based off a real CPU like a ARM or a atom or the like .

    the SW is so more adaptable to just be stripped like TOMS linux and shoved on a CPU

    I have in the robotics lab a 3 inch screen based PLC / Human interface embedded din rail box . it runs linux .anddd its defined by who it was made as a embedded device.

    BTW its on a Debain off shoot on a ARM .


    Peter
  • davidsaundersdavidsaunders Posts: 1,559
    edited 2011-06-29 08:17
    I still hold the definition of an Embedded system as one in which the CPU, Main RAM and most IO is on a single IC. This is the only definition that I have seen that has been widely accepted. Other definitions have there merit, though become more and more questionable as you cross into the MicroComputer world (As many systems that are calling them selfs embedded do, these are not embedded).
  • davidsaundersdavidsaunders Posts: 1,559
    edited 2011-06-29 08:18
    To be clear:
    This is not to say that a MicroComputer can not be used for embedded applications, just that it is a microcomputer in that application and not an embedded system
  • TorTor Posts: 2,010
    edited 2011-06-29 08:34
    davidsaunders wrote: »
    I still hold the definition of an Embedded system as one in which the CPU, Main RAM and most IO is on a single IC.[..]
    But by that definition embedded systems couldn't possibly have existed in the not-too-far past.. before we got to today's level of extreme integration.

    -Tor
  • davidsaundersdavidsaunders Posts: 1,559
    edited 2011-06-29 11:03
    Tor:
    I am not aware of any Embedded systems that predate 1978. And those only had 128-Nybles of RAM, but they were usable Embedded systems none the less. On the other hand there have been reduced size MicroComputers applied to embedded applications as far back as 1972, beings as this only gives a 6 year window between the first embedded small applications and the first Embedded systems that is not saying much.
  • localrogerlocalroger Posts: 3,452
    edited 2011-06-29 12:27
    The HP2116A, introduced in 1966, was intended as an "instrumentation computer." It was frequently built into larger machines as what we would today call an embedded controller: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_2100
  • TorTor Posts: 2,010
    edited 2011-06-29 13:21
    davidsaunders wrote: »
    Tor:
    I am not aware of any Embedded systems that predate 1978. And those only had 128-Nybles of RAM, but they were usable Embedded systems none the less. On the other hand there have been reduced size MicroComputers applied to embedded applications as far back as 1972, beings as this only gives a 6 year window between the first embedded small applications and the first Embedded systems that is not saying much.
    I don't really want to argue too much about this.. but.. aren't you arguing in circles here? As in using the definition Embedded systems=single-IC systems, and as there were no such systems before 1978 so therefore there were no Embedded systems before 1978?

    I see it differently: Every time some system is put to a special, single purpose and embedded inside something else then it's an embedded system. And those could be made from any number of components. As such, I would consider some of the equipment built into the Avro Arrow fighter plane as far back as 1957-1958 to be embedded systems.

    Anyway, that's my take on it.

    -Tor
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