Curious what most folks would feel is essential equipment for a Makerspace (one leaning toward electronics, robotics but not ruling out woodworking and art projects)
Brings up an interesting point. I was reading the website of one hackerspace (can't recall which one) that was very open and free. They had recommendations for people to follow, not rules.
This seemed a bit dangerous (physically and legally).
Should members be forced to abide by certain guidelines like wearing safety glasses?
I am involved in paintball, in the fields have waivers but also a rule sheet that each player must sign saying that they have read and understand the document.
I wear safety glasses anytime I feel that my eyes are likely to be in danger. To some people that means all the time. I would prefer to sign a waiver accepting responsibility for the well being of my eyes rather than being scolded for not following a blanket CYA rule. However, for those under 18 years of age, I don't think signing a waiver means anything so they may need to wear them all the time.
How much money do you have budgeted for your "makerspace?" (And, if you're married, how much of that budget can you realistically expect to spend? ) Unfortunately, the answers to those questions will have to be prerequisite to our answering your question.
Well, admittedly I am putting the cart before the horse here. I have an idea for a large scale makerspace operated by volunteers, membership dues, and donations of money and equipment, but I don't know how many DIY hobbyists are currently in the area.
The basic idea is that if the school system could be convinced that such a place would make a great field trip destination, business sponsors would follow.
For the most part, it's obvious what would be nice on the tool side. Scroll saw, milling machine, table saw, chop saw, lathe, CNC machines, kilns, bandsaws, drill press, welding machines (multiple types), benchtop (or stand alone) grinders and sanders, air compressor and dust vacuum. Of course, you want to avoid the low end models if you're going to charge for the space so the tool price could get pretty spendy.
You'll also need a large collection of hand tools. None of them are particularly revolutionary: hammer, screw drivers, wrenches, hand saws, power tools (circular, jig, and reciprocating saws, drills, grinders, Dremmels), pliers, meausuring devices, knives, soldering irons and hot air irons, etc.
Other things to include are lots of flat workspace areas, a painting area, sawdust free areas, etc.
And these are just the basics, and don't include the fancy gadgets that many expect from hackerspaces such as a shopbot, a 3D printer, a PCB machine, and various other high end and specialize machines.
A new hackerspace recently started up in my area (http://vocademy.com/). I know the guy who is working on it, and at the moment it's very expensive. He is charging $900 for a two month class on how to use various tools in the shop. But, apparently there are takers so maybe he is doing it right. But the important point is that he has lots (20 years) of experience in machine shop/wood shop tools and techniques, and has a partner who knows electronics.
Thank you, that site is great inspiration! Yeah, I was hoping to do it much less expensively, but I guess you run into a break even point where people either can't afford it or what you offer is no better then what they have in their garage.
But one youtube video did mention that it was nice to have a place to meet other hobbyist without going home to home. Plus you can store ongoing projects out of the way.
The skill set on my part is very very limited. I am hoping to attract people from the community (large retiree base and Lockheed Martin Plant) to the idea of making a makerspace. Put out a call on the local craigslist type site this morning.
This is a rough proposal outline I am working on. (yep hijacking my own thread)
MAKERSPACE PROPOSAL
1. Explanation of Maker Space concept
a. A variety of construction tool spaces (electronics, plastics, wood, metal, etc)
available to community students through scheduled field trips and paying members.
b. Used for
1) Classes
2) Independent projects
3) equipment certifications (required in house for use of some equipment)
c. Operated by volunteers
1) to teach project classes (Lockheed, retirees)
2) to teach and certify equipment use (retirees and government employees)
d. Funded by dues, parts sales and donations
2. How it benefits various entities
a. City
1. augments school curriculum and current vocational training facilities
2. Gives the city a forward looking vision and population that would appeal to future tech
businesses.
3. a birthplace for future business/innovations
b. Lookheed Martin
1. Similar to cities plus a pool of future solder literate employees.
c. IHMC Florida Institute of Human and Machine Cognition
1. got to figure out who and what they are, but this seems up their alley.
d. Medical Community
1. lots of potential support, have to find angle.
e. Thoroughbred community
2. again lots of potential ($$) but much tougher sell.
3. Facts and figures (where the real work begins)
a. Location analysis
b. start up costs, ongoing costs
c. potential use statistics
d. labor stats related to increased skill set. maybe harder to find then stats based on
degrees.
e. legal liabilities
4. Closing argument
a. pictures of lots of happy children who with the cities current course will became the
tax base for another city when they grow up.
I would definitely add a laser cutter to the mix -- a good domestically-produced unit, not a cheap offshore knock-off.
As you may remember, I am a bit disgusted with how eager people are to purchase goods made in China rather than domestic to save a few pennies. I always buy domestic when I can, it usually costs more. However, when it comes to lasers the price difference is staggering.
An Epilog Zing 24 40 watt laser will cost you about $12,000. It can handle pieces up to 12" x 24". The machine has a one year warranty and the laser tube will have a two year warranty. You will get excellent service even beyond the warranty but replacements are not cheap. The tube may cost about $3,000 to recharge and it will need to be recharged, maybe three years, maybe six, it is highly variable and the cost to recharge seems to change. Light usage does not increase the tube life, it may even reduce it. Maintenance requirements are minimal, the software is very refined and it will engrave/cut beautifully with almost no effort.
I have decided upon a Chinese laser due to the huge difference in costs. My laser cost less than $4,500, importing it will cost another thousand. It is a large machine. It is more than twice as large as Epilog's largest machine which costs about $40,000. The machine and tube have a one year warranty and a replacement tube will cost $500. The software is not as refined but is more capable/has more features. The machine will require tweaking and tuning on my part to get the best performance.
If you have the money and do not need large cutting capacity then an Epilog is highly recommended. If you want to save many thousands of dollars in exchange for some work on your part then a Chinese machine is probably a better use of your money.
There are many, many places selling Chinese lasers. Shenhui is the only one that I am comfortable with. Here are three good threads about Chinese lasers from Shenhui. Unfortunately, you will need to register to view the images.
There isn't a Makerspace close enough to me to be practical, so I'm working toward making my own. From what I've read, a makerspace typically has membership for four years or more before getting a phyiscal address. Kind of like a reverse of most buisness, that has an address before they have customers. In this respect, 50% of membership is typically "founding member".
So the first thing a makerspace should have is committeed members.
One way many spaces support themselves is by conducting classes. So tools would be a fucntion of what classes the space can host, and draw attendees, and have a teaching resource. So for example, a surface mount soldering class would need flux pens and solder wick, and attendees would supply their own irons.
I would limit the tools to only ones which actually are needed at any given time. Otherwise, you have to pay to buy them, and you have to pay to store them, they take up project space, and they leak and/or rust
I have decided upon a Chinese laser due to the huge difference in costs. My laser cost less than $4,500, importing it will cost another thousand. It is a large machine. It is more than twice as large as Epilog's largest machine which costs about $40,000. The machine and tube have a one year warranty and a replacement tube will cost $500. The software is not as refined but is more capable/has more features. The machine will require tweaking and tuning on my part to get the best performance. Rich H
Rich, I'd like to know if you've taken delivery of this laser already and gotten familiar with the "fine tuning" aspect to get optimal performance, or if you've actually had an opportunity or need to try out the supplier's serviceability of the machine.
I think the point you make is one of value - at $4,500 this Chinese laser can't be 1/10th the performance/quality of the American counterpart, but probably between 50-100% of the performance.
As far as a business is concerned, equipment that requires tweaking has very little place in our shop. In fact, this is the reason I'm making the equipment selections myself. I don't want our staff to be responsible for some of the choices we've made in the past when we're seeking a better value.
The minute we start messing around with a machine to get better results is the minute we're out of stock of a product, or the design costs increase. And I'm not talking about experimenting with cutting tools, feeds and speeds, but making major setup compromises because of the way a machine was designed [er, the way it behaves]. In a laser cutter, these kinds of compromises might mean drawing a part larger than it needs to be, slightly tilting the work piece to compensate for other irregularities, or trying to get the laser to point straight down, backlash compensation, etc.
Service is a huge consideration, too. I know you're not going to put a pumpkin in your laser cutter, but it happened in our office. This damaged the bed, the laser, and some of the optics. Matt was on the phone in minutes and parts were on the way quickly.
For hobby, I've gone the "value" route and I think you'll probably be quite happy with your new laser cutter. The perfomance/value gap among other tools is probably far more staggering with CNC milling machines. I have a small CNC mill at my home office (Wabeco) and it costs about 1/2 the price of a used Haas Mini Mill. But the performance is literally 1/100th of the Haas Mini Mill.
For business, and "Equipment for a Makerspace" I wouldn't be comfortable taking any shortcuts. Go with the best.
We have a saying at my work "Buy cheap...buy twice." and it usually is true.
That said, we have purchased some "cheap" equipment that has worked just fine for the purpose. But it is a coin toss.
Rich, I'd like to know if you've taken delivery of this laser already and gotten familiar with the "fine tuning" aspect to get optimal performance, or if you've actually had an opportunity or need to try out the supplier's serviceability of the machine.
Sometime soon I want to sit down and write a thorough review of the machine and my experience with it. There are a couple of things, engineering wise that make no sense - I was compelled to fix them. Neither were directly related to the lasing parts.
I have had to use their tech support. They are very responsive, using Skype I have not had to wait more than a couple minutes to get a response. Part of this is because I am a late night kind of person and that meshes well with their time zone.
As far as performance of the machine, take a look at this comparison between Epilog's sample of the Aztec calendar and the one I made on MDF. Click the image to go to my SmugMug page where you can view the image much larger.
Looks as if the Chinese made a better sample?
When I scaled the picture up, I can see that there are details at the lefthand edge missing on the Epilog version compared to the chinese-laser version. Of course, the difference may be in the difference of materials used?
(The Epilog version seems to be in plywood)
I agree with Ken that in business anything that does not work properly costs way more than mere labour. There are way more associated costs that can never be fully realized including lost opportunity.
We saw that in Las Vegas where we used to attend comdex each year. Building the casinos was a 24/7 project and those $1B buildings were put up so quick. In oz it would take years and think about lost return on investment with that money tied up.
But from a hobbyists perspective, time is mostly worth nothing so the experience and money saved is often worth it - and this is really sad for local manufacture.
Heaven help us if there is ever another world war as most of the allies have little local manufacturing capability any more.
Comments
Plenty of lighting so people can actually see what they're doing.
This seemed a bit dangerous (physically and legally).
Should members be forced to abide by certain guidelines like wearing safety glasses?
I am involved in paintball, in the fields have waivers but also a rule sheet that each player must sign saying that they have read and understand the document.
Rich H
How much money do you have budgeted for your "makerspace?" (And, if you're married, how much of that budget can you realistically expect to spend?
-Phil
Well, admittedly I am putting the cart before the horse here. I have an idea for a large scale makerspace operated by volunteers, membership dues, and donations of money and equipment, but I don't know how many DIY hobbyists are currently in the area.
The basic idea is that if the school system could be convinced that such a place would make a great field trip destination, business sponsors would follow.
I am working up a proposal to present..
You'll also need a large collection of hand tools. None of them are particularly revolutionary: hammer, screw drivers, wrenches, hand saws, power tools (circular, jig, and reciprocating saws, drills, grinders, Dremmels), pliers, meausuring devices, knives, soldering irons and hot air irons, etc.
Other things to include are lots of flat workspace areas, a painting area, sawdust free areas, etc.
And these are just the basics, and don't include the fancy gadgets that many expect from hackerspaces such as a shopbot, a 3D printer, a PCB machine, and various other high end and specialize machines.
A new hackerspace recently started up in my area (http://vocademy.com/). I know the guy who is working on it, and at the moment it's very expensive. He is charging $900 for a two month class on how to use various tools in the shop. But, apparently there are takers so maybe he is doing it right. But the important point is that he has lots (20 years) of experience in machine shop/wood shop tools and techniques, and has a partner who knows electronics.
But one youtube video did mention that it was nice to have a place to meet other hobbyist without going home to home. Plus you can store ongoing projects out of the way.
The skill set on my part is very very limited. I am hoping to attract people from the community (large retiree base and Lockheed Martin Plant) to the idea of making a makerspace. Put out a call on the local craigslist type site this morning.
MAKERSPACE PROPOSAL 1. Explanation of Maker Space concept a. A variety of construction tool spaces (electronics, plastics, wood, metal, etc) available to community students through scheduled field trips and paying members. b. Used for 1) Classes 2) Independent projects 3) equipment certifications (required in house for use of some equipment) c. Operated by volunteers 1) to teach project classes (Lockheed, retirees) 2) to teach and certify equipment use (retirees and government employees) d. Funded by dues, parts sales and donations 2. How it benefits various entities a. City 1. augments school curriculum and current vocational training facilities 2. Gives the city a forward looking vision and population that would appeal to future tech businesses. 3. a birthplace for future business/innovations b. Lookheed Martin 1. Similar to cities plus a pool of future solder literate employees. c. IHMC Florida Institute of Human and Machine Cognition 1. got to figure out who and what they are, but this seems up their alley. d. Medical Community 1. lots of potential support, have to find angle. e. Thoroughbred community 2. again lots of potential ($$) but much tougher sell. 3. Facts and figures (where the real work begins) a. Location analysis b. start up costs, ongoing costs c. potential use statistics d. labor stats related to increased skill set. maybe harder to find then stats based on degrees. e. legal liabilities 4. Closing argument a. pictures of lots of happy children who with the cities current course will became the tax base for another city when they grow up.My Epilog Zing16 is one of my most-used tools. I would recommend at least a Zing24, though.
-Phil
As you may remember, I am a bit disgusted with how eager people are to purchase goods made in China rather than domestic to save a few pennies. I always buy domestic when I can, it usually costs more. However, when it comes to lasers the price difference is staggering.
An Epilog Zing 24 40 watt laser will cost you about $12,000. It can handle pieces up to 12" x 24". The machine has a one year warranty and the laser tube will have a two year warranty. You will get excellent service even beyond the warranty but replacements are not cheap. The tube may cost about $3,000 to recharge and it will need to be recharged, maybe three years, maybe six, it is highly variable and the cost to recharge seems to change. Light usage does not increase the tube life, it may even reduce it. Maintenance requirements are minimal, the software is very refined and it will engrave/cut beautifully with almost no effort.
I have decided upon a Chinese laser due to the huge difference in costs. My laser cost less than $4,500, importing it will cost another thousand. It is a large machine. It is more than twice as large as Epilog's largest machine which costs about $40,000. The machine and tube have a one year warranty and a replacement tube will cost $500. The software is not as refined but is more capable/has more features. The machine will require tweaking and tuning on my part to get the best performance.
If you have the money and do not need large cutting capacity then an Epilog is highly recommended. If you want to save many thousands of dollars in exchange for some work on your part then a Chinese machine is probably a better use of your money.
There are many, many places selling Chinese lasers. Shenhui is the only one that I am comfortable with. Here are three good threads about Chinese lasers from Shenhui. Unfortunately, you will need to register to view the images.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?155522-Very-impressed-with-Chinese-laser-cutter.&
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?165815-Despatches-from-China
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?166611-Chinese-lasers-they-re-here-!!!&
Rich H
So the first thing a makerspace should have is committeed members.
One way many spaces support themselves is by conducting classes. So tools would be a fucntion of what classes the space can host, and draw attendees, and have a teaching resource. So for example, a surface mount soldering class would need flux pens and solder wick, and attendees would supply their own irons.
I would limit the tools to only ones which actually are needed at any given time. Otherwise, you have to pay to buy them, and you have to pay to store them, they take up project space, and they leak and/or rust
Rich, I'd like to know if you've taken delivery of this laser already and gotten familiar with the "fine tuning" aspect to get optimal performance, or if you've actually had an opportunity or need to try out the supplier's serviceability of the machine.
I think the point you make is one of value - at $4,500 this Chinese laser can't be 1/10th the performance/quality of the American counterpart, but probably between 50-100% of the performance.
As far as a business is concerned, equipment that requires tweaking has very little place in our shop. In fact, this is the reason I'm making the equipment selections myself. I don't want our staff to be responsible for some of the choices we've made in the past when we're seeking a better value.
The minute we start messing around with a machine to get better results is the minute we're out of stock of a product, or the design costs increase. And I'm not talking about experimenting with cutting tools, feeds and speeds, but making major setup compromises because of the way a machine was designed [er, the way it behaves]. In a laser cutter, these kinds of compromises might mean drawing a part larger than it needs to be, slightly tilting the work piece to compensate for other irregularities, or trying to get the laser to point straight down, backlash compensation, etc.
Service is a huge consideration, too. I know you're not going to put a pumpkin in your laser cutter, but it happened in our office. This damaged the bed, the laser, and some of the optics. Matt was on the phone in minutes and parts were on the way quickly.
For hobby, I've gone the "value" route and I think you'll probably be quite happy with your new laser cutter. The perfomance/value gap among other tools is probably far more staggering with CNC milling machines. I have a small CNC mill at my home office (Wabeco) and it costs about 1/2 the price of a used Haas Mini Mill. But the performance is literally 1/100th of the Haas Mini Mill.
For business, and "Equipment for a Makerspace" I wouldn't be comfortable taking any shortcuts. Go with the best.
Ken Gracey
That said, we have purchased some "cheap" equipment that has worked just fine for the purpose. But it is a coin toss.
Bean
Sometime soon I want to sit down and write a thorough review of the machine and my experience with it. There are a couple of things, engineering wise that make no sense - I was compelled to fix them. Neither were directly related to the lasing parts.
I have had to use their tech support. They are very responsive, using Skype I have not had to wait more than a couple minutes to get a response. Part of this is because I am a late night kind of person and that meshes well with their time zone.
As far as performance of the machine, take a look at this comparison between Epilog's sample of the Aztec calendar and the one I made on MDF. Click the image to go to my SmugMug page where you can view the image much larger.
When I scaled the picture up, I can see that there are details at the lefthand edge missing on the Epilog version compared to the chinese-laser version. Of course, the difference may be in the difference of materials used?
(The Epilog version seems to be in plywood)
We saw that in Las Vegas where we used to attend comdex each year. Building the casinos was a 24/7 project and those $1B buildings were put up so quick. In oz it would take years and think about lost return on investment with that money tied up.
But from a hobbyists perspective, time is mostly worth nothing so the experience and money saved is often worth it - and this is really sad for local manufacture.
Heaven help us if there is ever another world war as most of the allies have little local manufacturing capability any more.