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Poor Sony.... — Parallax Forums

Poor Sony....

RavenkallenRavenkallen Posts: 1,057
edited 2011-06-07 07:09 in General Discussion
Wow, if having the PSN down for a month(And still continuing for certain features) hasn't hurt Sony, this sure as heck will. The hackers apparently got in pretty easy and had access to unencrypted data, which included address, numbers, email... Why is Sony such a target? Maybe Microsoft is behind all this:)

http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/229308/lulzsec_hacks_sonypicturescom_1_million_accounts_exposed.html

Comments

  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2011-06-03 01:38
    For reasons known only to Sony, it seems that they failed to encrypt all their customer data. So it seems it was rather easy for hackers to gain the data. I strongly doubt that M$ would be the source of their troubles. Much more likely are Chinese hackers or Russian hackers. Both are constantly on the lookout for soft targets in Asia.
  • Martin_HMartin_H Posts: 4,051
    edited 2011-06-03 04:45
    I don't have a lot of Sympathy for Sony after their misguided CD rootkit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal, and suing a PS3 owner for publishing device internals he reverse engineered.
  • RobotWorkshopRobotWorkshop Posts: 2,307
    edited 2011-06-03 05:01
    As I recall Sony has done quite a few things over the years that upset people. There was an issue of them shipping auto-installed rootkit software on many music CD's that would mess up your PC. They made a LOT of people angry and had to supply new versions of those disks without their malware on the disk. I believe it was Mark R (www.sysinternals.com) that originally found it and called out Sony for their bad behavior.

    Another involved the AIBO robot dog. When they first came out there was no details on the internals. One user (AIBOPET ??) started tinkering with the robot and was able to start documenting the internals and make it do some new features. Sony tried to stop it but after feeling the heat from angry AIBO owners finally backed off a bit.

    One of the more recent ones involved the PS3 systems. The early versions were not only PS2 compatible but could also run Linux. Sony later came out with a firmware upgrade that disabled the use of Linux on the system. So, people that were using them for Linux were upset since they could no longer use the system the way they wanted and Sony didn't care. When a few people unlocked their systems so they could run Linux again (which was an original feature that Sony pulled) Sony seemed to pursue them ruthlessly. I'm sure that didn't sit well with PS3 owners which was probably one of the triggers that made Sony a target.
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2011-06-03 12:15
    Martin_H wrote: »
    I don't have a lot of Sympathy for Sony after their misguided CD rootkit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy_protection_rootkit_scandal, and suing a PS3 owner for publishing device internals he reverse engineered.

    Have to agree 100% with this sentiment. I think the entire Sony management needs a slap to the back of the head to get their attention and make them smarten up.
  • Jen J.Jen J. Posts: 649
    edited 2011-06-03 12:46
    Another major mistake was remaining so quiet about the catastrophe for so long. Total PR fail.
  • Peter KG6LSEPeter KG6LSE Posts: 1,383
    edited 2011-06-03 14:27
    I despise sony ....... sorry but anyone or any company who hacks 100s of thousands of computers gets to be on my bad list . do I want to see them fail . no But I sure do enjoy seeing them squirm . slimey little crooks they are . . i REFUSE to own or promote any of there products to anyone .
    there memStick is a re haked SD card ( dude SD won the war . Give up on MS . its dead ) . there TVs are over priced .

    Sorry but they get every thing they deserve .

    Peter
  • RavenkallenRavenkallen Posts: 1,057
    edited 2011-06-03 17:58
    Wow, i didn't know about a lot of that stuff. I always thought that they were a pretty decent company? I have only ever had good experiences with their products. My sister's radio is a 10 year old Sony and it works like it just got out of the box! Same thing with my PSP and PS3. I never had any trouble with them. If a company is judged by its products, i would say Sony has a very bright future. Some people drool on Ipods or Itablets, but i have always had a soft spot for Sony:) .. BUT, they really need to work on protecting our(their customers) personal information. AND tell us straight up what is happening!
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2011-06-04 05:19
    I have been collecting quite of list of technological companies that I have loved, but had my heart broken.

    Hewlett-Packard is foremost. These days, one might as well buy Asus as they are making most of the good OEM computers in the Western world. HP is trying to do its own thing, but doesn't have the option to sell OEM.

    Sony is part of what we are seeing as a cultural trend in Japanese technological savvy. There appears to be an overall decline as the country is aging and great companies are living on past glories. It seems anything negative is not handled in an informative way with a high degree to sensitivity to damage control.

    My first PDA was a Sony that cost about $500USD. I loved it as it was feature rich and very sensual design. It included an OS for Korean, Japanese, Chinese and English input. I immediately purchase another $300USD in applications. But that affair was short lived. It slipped off a table about 30 days after I purchased it and the screen cracked. That was when I learned that it was made ONLY for the USA market and since I bought it 'under-the-table' in Taiwan, they would not repair it UNLESS I filed a law suit in a US small claims court and went all the way back to the USA to get the repair done.

    Mind you that this was a PDA with Korean, Chinese, Japanese, and English for an OS and input and output - not an English only product. I decided to buy one because all the MDs at the local university hospital were using them.

    I tried to get it repaired locally by a Sony repair station and they flatly refused to touch it. So I threw the darn thing at a concrete wall in Song repair shop when the manager and customers looked on and have switched to Palm.

    I'll never by another 'big ticket' Sony product again. Their stuff can be extremely appealing to buy, but an absolute nightmare to service.

    I still like Toshiba, but I am getting very wary about anything Japanese from the customer service side.
  • edited 2011-06-04 05:45
    I tried to get it repaired locally by a Sony repair station and they flatly refused to touch it. So I threw the darn thing at a concrete wall in Song repair shop when the manager and customers looked on and have switched to Palm.

    I had a Sony CD player that had a rechargeable battery. I thought I heard some distortion so I bought a service contract for $30. I took advantage of the contract and the repair place rejected the unit in the mail so I returned the CD player to the store and I got my money back for the service contract. The other issue was that you couldn't hear the music on an old Sony CD player when you fast forwarded so I bought a CD player from Technics which was a lot better.

    When a company doesn't respect the customer (I had a service contract) and they don't honor it, I stop buying from them. The fact they didn't protect customers in the first place is another reason to jump ship.

    It was also just in the news that Best Buy and other companies were collecting customer information and someone just happened to get their hands on it. I just decided that if companies want a relationship with me, they don't need my information because it is just usary.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2011-06-04 08:28
    These days, I buy all my major computer stuff over-the-counter at a well established major electronics store that allows me 10 days no questions asked return and services everything they sell for at least a year. It is the only way to go in Taiwan - especially if you are not a native..

    That Sony PDA was bought at what I thought was a good store in rather large and established computer mall here. But after I dropped the device and needed repair, I found my retail outlet had gone broke and already closed shop. I only had Sony to turn to.

    From what I do gather, the US government was partially involved as they apparently made Sony promise to only export to the USA due to what was considered advanced technology at that time.

    But obviously there was a 'grey market' in Asia where this particular PDA was booming as it was the first to provide a solid Asian languages input system. My impression was that Sony made a promise to the US government and then turned a blind eye to where boxes of product were really going.

    I purchased it for use with Chinese/English dictionary - Pleco Dictionary - and that is what I still use my Palm Zire72 for. It has traveled with me to China, Japan, Korea, and Thailand and I wouldn't travel without it for language reference as it travels in my shirt pocket for immediate use. Beiks Dictionary sells a huge library of language dictionaries for PDAs for less than $100 USD.

    Palm has had its ups and downs as a company (and is even owned now by HP), but their PDAs have been very solid for international service and repair. But when it dies, I just may go to an Apple product.
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2011-06-04 11:22
    Unfortunately this seems to happen often when a company and it's products become successful and highly regarded. The management becomes more arrogant and greedy while the quality of their products and customer service declines, sometimes to the point of extinction.

    In the case of Sony it is rather sad. Although I avoid Sony products now there was a time they were my preferred choice for electronics and computer products.
  • propMakerpropMaker Posts: 65
    edited 2011-06-04 14:17
    My friends PS2 stopped reading discs. It was still under warranty but Sony refused to fix it for free. He bought a new one and spent days with a hair drier peeling the stickers off the box and the unit itself and putting them on the broken one. When he was done you couldn't tell that the box had been opened. Then he returned it to the store. Some poor kid probably got a broken Playstation for Christmas and hates Sony to this day, lol.
  • Peter KG6LSEPeter KG6LSE Posts: 1,383
    edited 2011-06-04 20:16
    These days, I buy all my major computer stuff over-the-counter at a well established major electronics store that allows me 10 days no questions asked return and services everything they sell for at least a year. It is the only way to go in Taiwan - especially if you are not a native..

    That Sony PDA was bought at what I thought was a good store in rather large and established computer mall here. But after I dropped the device and needed repair, I found my retail outlet had gone broke and already closed shop. I only had Sony to turn to.

    From what I do gather, the US government was partially involved as they apparently made Sony promise to only export to the USA due to what was considered advanced technology at that time.

    But obviously there was a 'grey market' in Asia where this particular PDA was booming as it was the first to provide a solid Asian languages input system. My impression was that Sony made a promise to the US government and then turned a blind eye to where boxes of product were really going.

    I purchased it for use with Chinese/English dictionary - Pleco Dictionary - and that is what I still use my Palm Zire72 for. It has traveled with me to China, Japan, Korea, and Thailand and I wouldn't travel without it for language reference as it travels in my shirt pocket for immediate use. Beiks Dictionary sells a huge library of language dictionaries for PDAs for less than $100 USD.

    Palm has had its ups and downs as a company (and is even owned now by HP), but their PDAs have been very solid for international service and repair. But when it dies, I just may go to an Apple product.


    Let me guess it was a" Clei" SP? that ran Palm OS . Yea I ALLMOST got one the year the first
    Ipod came out with FIREWIRE ! WHOOAAA FAST !!! . this is pre USB 2,0 days .

    so I got the Ipod and had it for 4 years till its batt died . Me I used the Visor Neo ( smokey black one ) as it had a Slot to CF adpter that let me have a HUGE 128 M of space on it VS int of 8 megs ( those were the days LOLs ) now I own a pam Centro and I LOVE IT .


    I hope too that HP does palm well and keeps that candle alive .

    as for sony . Everyone and there mom had a "handy cam " . but here was my Beef
    it was a 8.4V charger and a SONY PLUG * so when my moms vac chewed up the plug I had to Dish out $80 for a charger . .

    I tossed the sony and got me a canon XL1 . . no longer do I need to kiss a companys butt to get a part . canon has had NO prolelm with me fixing my own stuff . ( mind that they so remind you on the phone you wil be voiding your warrinty ) like i care .... I had that XL1 till 2007 or so ..

    see I can under stand Apple being a Mean old hag with parts and service as they are apple . \\
    Il be up front I am a bit of a fan boy ) but I expect apple to be snobby . its apple .


    but Esp on the viao's Sony has acted like apple with one off chargers . one off this and that .

    no 2 sony laptops are the same or share parts form my point of view .

    and like apple to a extent they over price ( relivive to the PC not mac market) there computers .


    Sony invents sticker names like 3D ths and Vega that ans up sells it like its gold .
    (I Il be up front my dad knows the CEO of Viseo )
    Viseo does 90% of sony quality and suff with far less up sell .
    Visio is huge pain in Sony's side .

    its a TV Oh Heck only a few Compansy make the panals . LD samsung Sonly and one other . a the same with the CPUs in the TVs . its a Off the shelf TexInstruments VGA / HDMI / NTSC to LVDS chip . and whhopty doo the sony has a extra chip for its color stuff .

    Not impressed .

    they LIE to the consumer . and I feel they should have Lost all of there biussness after the root kit scandal.
    sony is Sue happy .



    gamers WILL hack and crack . its in there blood .

    you release a devices Expect it to be a Server or be a tablet in a day or too .

    as you can see I have no love for sony ...
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2011-06-05 00:25
    Yes indeed, the PDA was a Sony CLIE.

    About the only interesting thing Sony has done in the past 15 or so years was to release a video camera that could be switched to IR mode and record people as if they were not wearing any clothes.

    Of course, I have to wonder if that was another of their 'covert' marketing ploys.
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2011-06-05 07:41
    @Ravenkallen:

    Now that you've heard about Sony's true character how about changing the thread title to something more appropriate?

    May I suggest "Sony SUCKS" or "WHY WE SHOULD BOYCOTT SONY".

    I am sure you or someone else can come up with a better suggestion. I am not so good at this kind of thing.
  • RavenkallenRavenkallen Posts: 1,057
    edited 2011-06-05 10:44
    @Kwinn... Well, my view of them as a company has definitely changed, but i don't think i will sell of all my Sony stuff and go on a smear campaign... Unless they delay the new Call of Duty zombies map pack again:)
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2011-06-05 13:59
    @Kwinn... Well, my view of them as a company has definitely changed, but i don't think i will sell of all my Sony stuff and go on a smear campaign... Unless they delay the new Call of Duty zombies map pack again:)

    I understand. I am still more than a bit irritated about the amount of work they caused me with their copy protection root kit and as a result have not bought a single Sony product since. I spent several days trying to remove the root kit and spy/adware it permitted to load on my system. In the end I had to format my hard drive and reinstall all my software.

    I feel you should at least change it from "Poor Sony" though. They are only getting what they deserve (if even that) for the arrogant, careless, and devious way they do business.
  • RavenkallenRavenkallen Posts: 1,057
    edited 2011-06-05 14:51
    @Kwinn... If they have done wrong then they deserve to have justice served through legal means and NOT by being hacked. Those hackers have solved nothing, but angering the public. They are still the bad guys in this story... I still feel a certain amount of compassion for Sony. I could tell they were really embarrassed by the last fiasco:).... Its just like any other product i guess. Some say that it is the best thing ever and another would say that he/she hated it's very existence. Sort of like Compaqs. I HATE Compaqs. I have never owned one that had a properly designed cooling system and they fall apart really easy. Are all Compaqs bad? Probably not, but in my experience i would never recommend one.
  • SSteveSSteve Posts: 808
    edited 2011-06-05 17:00
    I have a friend who is an EE. When he first moved to Northern California he worked for a while running the service department at a "high-end" A/V store in Sacramento. After that he swore off Sony products for life and encourages his friends to avoid Sony whenever possible. He said their build quality was terrible. I know this is second-hand, but he is someone I trust completely when it comes to electronics.
  • edited 2011-06-05 18:42
    Wow, if having the PSN down for a month(And still continuing for certain features) hasn't hurt Sony, this sure as heck will. The hackers apparently got in pretty easy and had access to unencrypted data, which included address, numbers, email... Why is Sony such a target? Maybe Microsoft is behind all this:)

    http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/229308/lulzsec_hacks_sonypicturescom_1_million_accounts_exposed.html

    Nintendo was a victim of an attack but they said the attacker didn't get anything.

    http://news.cnet.com/8301-27080_3-20068890-245/hackers-target-sony-nintendo-and-fbi-partner-web-site/

    I think the lesson to be learned is not to leave anything on the web that is of value so use sites that are encrypted and have a more serious security policy.
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2011-06-06 01:22
    @Kwinn... If they have done wrong then they deserve to have justice served through legal means and NOT by being hacked. Those hackers have solved nothing, but angering the public. They are still the bad guys in this story... I still feel a certain amount of compassion for Sony. I could tell they were really embarrassed by the last fiasco:).... Its just like any other product i guess. Some say that it is the best thing ever and another would say that he/she hated it's very existence. Sort of like Compaqs. I HATE Compaqs. I have never owned one that had a properly designed cooling system and they fall apart really easy. Are all Compaqs bad? Probably not, but in my experience i would never recommend one.

    I agree the hackers are the bad guys in this case, and am not condoning what they have done, however what they have done is a direct result of Sony's arrogance and lack of concern and respect for their customers. Sony should have taken the necessary steps to ensure the security of their customers data and privacy. They should be embarrassed and they should be held legally responsible for the consequence of their actions, but this is highly unlikely to happen. How do I, or thousands of others who had their computers compromised by Sony's root kit prove that in a court of law? How do we prove that our personal information Sony should have protected was used to our detriment. Sony has the resources to fight, delay, and obfuscate, any legitimate claims I might have well beyond the point where I am dead and buried.

    As I said, they deserve to be embarrassed, and they deserve to be punished. The only way I have of doing so is to encourage people to boycott them.

    PS - Ravenkallen, I don't expect you to boycott Sony. Your experience has been different from mine and I respect that. You are free to patronize whatever company you wish. I will not deal with Sony or any company that behaves in a similar manner, as I am sure several others on this forum will do, unless they admit their mistakes and make the necessary changes to avoid such mistakes in the future.
  • Roy ElthamRoy Eltham Posts: 3,000
    edited 2011-06-06 01:53
    kwinn,
    Your list of companies that you will buy from or deal with must be very small. You may or may not be aware, but just about every major company in existence has behaved similarly badly at one time or another. You just haven't experienced it or read about it yet.

    The reality is that often times the only thing they are truly guilty of is ignorance, or withholding information. It's not like Sony intended for the rootkit stuff to go down like it did. They licensed the technology from another company as a form of copy protection, it went badly. There have been other instances by other companies of similar things.

    Another thing to be aware of is that Sony is actually many different companies, with different CEOs and so on. Often with different policies and practices. Yes, there is a parent Sony Corp. in Japan, but it's not as simple a structure as you might think.

    At SOE, where I work, we have nothing to do with making TVs or consumer electronics, nor do we have anything to do with the music business or the movie and TV show business.

    Anyway... enjoy your day.
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2011-06-06 19:18
    Roy Eltham wrote: »
    kwinn,
    Your list of companies that you will buy from or deal with must be very small.

    Quite the opposite! My list of companies I deal with is fairly large, while the list of companies I avoid (if at all possible) is pretty small. Sony is at the top of that list because they installed a ROOT KIT (every hackers wet dream to access someones computer) on MY PC without asking my permission. To me this is the equivalent of someone breaking in to a house and placing hidden cameras and microphones to monitor activities. I only see one of two possibilities for this action. One is that the folks making this decision were really really stupid and had no idea what the software they were buying was, or two, that they purchased it with every intention of monitoring the PC's the software was installed on. Neither excuse encourages me to trust Sony again.
    You may or may not be aware, but just about every major company in existence has behaved similarly badly at one time or another. You just haven't experienced it or read about it yet.

    I am not so naive. I know that profit comes before ethics for a lot of companies, and while they might not lie and cheat outright they will stretch and bend them as much as they feel they can get away with. Companies that treat their customers as well as Parallax does are few and far between.
    The reality is that often times the only thing they are truly guilty of is ignorance, or withholding information. It's not like Sony intended for the rootkit stuff to go down like it did. They licensed the technology from another company as a form of copy protection, it went badly. There have been other instances by other companies of similar things.

    To a certain extent I agree with this. Had Sony released this information as soon as they were aware of it instead of trying to cover it up I might have been inclined to see it as a mistake. Had they then offered a fix to remove their software I would most definitely have done so.

    Being an employee of a Sony company I can understand your desire to defend them. What surprises me is how many others do so as well. While I regret that so many people have had their personal information fall into the hands of hackers, somehow hearing that Sony has been hacked seems like poetic justice. After all, that is what they did to our computers.
    Another thing to be aware of is that Sony is actually many different companies, with different CEOs and so on. Often with different policies and practices. Yes, there is a parent Sony Corp. in Japan, but it's not as simple a structure as you might think.

    At SOE, where I work, we have nothing to do with making TVs or consumer electronics, nor do we have anything to do with the music business or the movie and TV show business.

    Anyway... enjoy your day.

    All this may be true, nevertheless it is the responsibility of the upper management to set the guidelines of ethical and acceptable behavior, and installing software, harmless or not, on someones computer without their permission or knowledge is not acceptable to me.
  • RavenkallenRavenkallen Posts: 1,057
    edited 2011-06-06 19:59
    @Kwinn... Why should i boycott Sony when Microsoft/ Apple is just as bad of a company? Sony still holds worth for me and a lot of others out there. That thing about the rootkit that you mentioned was a stupid move on their part, but i am sure they didn't have some diabolical intentions planned. I think Apple is way more of a (Insert swear word here:)) company than Sony is. You mess around with them and Steve Jobs and his army of lawyers will descend upon you so freaking fast you will not even have time to blink:)... I had no idea about some of that stuff, and as i said before, my view of them has changed.... But at the end of the day Sony is a company and companies are all alike unfortunately:(
  • kwinnkwinn Posts: 8,697
    edited 2011-06-06 21:31
    As I said in an earlier post I don't expect you to boycott Sony, and as for Apple, I am not a big fan of theirs either. No argument that they make good products, but the price you pay in money and being locked in does not appeal to me.

    Did you know that Apple tried to get patents on the mouse when it was common knowledge that the Xerox Research Center had built mice years before?

    As you say, at the end of the day companies are all alike. I have said all I have to say on this topic so this will be my last comment on this thread.
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2011-06-06 21:41
    Yes indeed, Sony isn't the only corporation that morphs into a predator with its customers, but installing a 'root kit' is up there in terms of things not to do. In my case, not servicing a month old product that I had $800USD invested in has soured me forever, even though I generally like what they produce.

    Others have sinned. I strongly suspect that someone in the legal department gets the ear of the CEO and convinces him/her that something is 'perfectly legal', but in fact is not prudent customer relations.

    1. Hewlett-Packard used to clearly support Linux with drivers for its printers and scanner and clearly provided data about which products are Linux friendly. But those days appear gone. And so is my loyalty.

    2. Seagate sold me a 500Gbyte USB hard disk that had its own software and Seagate claims is NOT A SALE of hardware, but they merely issued me a license to use the hard disk on their terms. Why would I have paid for this product if I didn't get to own it is beyond me. I was caught in the dilemma of having always bought Seagate - Now I buy Western Digital.

    Of course, this software ONLY supported M$ file systems and I run Ubuntu Linux as a dual boot. I considered returning the device, but decided 'No'. I just re-formated the hard disk and partitioned as I saw fit. Seagate can come an get it in Taiwan for license violation, but I doubt they ever will. I don't buy licenses for hardware use, I buy hardware and do with it as I please.

    I'm sure there are other excellent examples of poor customer relations when an outfit forgets that they depend on the customer rather than vise-versa.
  • Heater.Heater. Posts: 21,230
    edited 2011-06-07 02:08
    Hewlett Packard shipped the HP-35 calculator and then found a bug in it. When they found out, this happened:
    When the bug was discovered, HP had already sold 25,000 units which was a huge volume for the company. In a meeting, Dave Packard asked what they were going to do about the units already in the field and someone in the crowd said "Don't tell?" At this Packard's pencil snapped and he said: "Who said that? We're going to tell everyone and offer them, a replacement. It would be better to never make a dime of profit than to have a product out there with a problem". It turns out that less than a quarter of the units were returned. Most people preferred to keep their buggy calculator and the notice from HP offering the replacement.

    How times have changed.

    http://www.hpmuseum.org/hp35.htm
  • __red____red__ Posts: 470
    edited 2011-06-07 04:16
    In the interests of somewhat full disclosure I'm a security incident responder and ethical hacker for a company you would have heard of:
    Roy Eltham wrote: »
    At SOE, where I work, we have nothing to do with making TVs or consumer electronics, nor do we have anything to do with the music business or the movie and TV show business.

    No, but that also didn't stop HBGary getting destroyed when the real target was HBGaryFederal. That's the point, you carry the targeted brand name, you're the target.

    These people are still so deep inside Sony's network they'll never get them out. How many breaches have Sony had now? 17 or so methinks:

    http://attrition.org/security/rants/sony_aka_sownage.html

    They're not done, expect more.
  • Peter KG6LSEPeter KG6LSE Posts: 1,383
    edited 2011-06-07 07:09
    Loopy when did HP stop casue as far as I know I have never had a issue with my 2 year old HP-470 with Linux .

    it just takes and runs, CUPS is happy .
    is this a with in a year issue ?


    canon and lexmark flat out refuse to play nice with tux . and canon too . so who else do i use . Epsion ?

    Peter
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