TCS3200-DB Color Sensor for $59.99 - rant
vaclav_sal
Posts: 451
TAOS / Parallax TCS3200-DB color sensor includes TAOS TCS3200-D part which sells for $3.
Parallax sells this sensor for $59.99. I need one. It is out of stock.
Is that $59.99 for real? I hope not.
And congress is questioning oil companies profiting?
Maybe there is PO (Parallax Oil) in the wings?
Cheers
Vaclav
Parallax sells this sensor for $59.99. I need one. It is out of stock.
Is that $59.99 for real? I hope not.
And congress is questioning oil companies profiting?
Maybe there is PO (Parallax Oil) in the wings?
Cheers
Vaclav
Comments
Vaclav,
look at Mouser for just the chip:
http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=TCS3200
Parallax is selling a daughterboard that easily interfaces that chip to the world, which is what the extra cost is all about. Sometimes sensors need interfaces to make them easy for amateurs to work with, otherwise, with just the raw chip, you need to do the bit-banging, etc. all on your own. Your $3 vs. $59.99 is comparing grapes to fine wine.
You are comparing the price of a complete developed product:
... to the price of a single component.
Not a fair comparison in my opinion.
Paul
ElectricAye, well put. I will have to remember that one.
I'll be happy to buy the "complete product" (check the description and complex schematic) with two LED's, intensity chip and the main chip - all gotten from reputable supply house for maybe $15 – tops. Add $5 for PCB and other specialty designed stuff.
And plus say $10 engineering and manufacturing expenses per unit.
That is measly $30 ( $60 minus $30) to pay uncle Sam tax on.
But I cannot wonder why colorPAL sells for $19.99.
Must be those extra two LED's.
Please do not reply anymore or do, whatever suits you. But this “case” is closed.
I would not want to waste any more of your precious time you could be spending on bashing other processors or criticizing PropII.
Cheers
Vaclav
What is the purpose of this statement? Are you have a bad day and need a hug?
If they didn't make any money they wouldn't be much of a company, would they?
I don't know about criticizing the PropII, but most users including myself do spend way too much time bashing other micros.
Are you sure about this? I don't recall Ken making a blanket statement like that. Also, I don't believe (although I may be wrong) that that is the correct definition of markup. You are right that molded plastic parts can be expensive.
Please don't say "most." I think the number is actually pretty small. However, those that do make these statements seem to be pretty vocal and make them in many threads, every time the opportunity arises.
I'm not sure why anyone should be surprised at the "markup" on items of this sort. It's not unusual in the business world to price an item at 5 to 10 times what it costs to make. For example, look at the following component:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=751-1105-ND
To buy one costs $0.44 each. But if you buy 10,000 then they are only about $0.07 each.
Obviously Digikey is able to sell them at about 7 cents each and still make a profit, so the manufacturer is making them for even less than that. Yet, the difference between 44 cents and 7 cents at retail is already huge. Customers often forget that the real cost of a product involves sales and marketing, inventory control, customer service, etc. Those things are real services, essential services, and it's just the cost of doing business.
By contrast, oil companies disgrace themselves by enjoying vast government subsidies - they get to drill on public land, benefit from huge tax breaks, and enjoy the protection of various militaries all around the world - all while tooting the horn of free market rugged individualism.
It's not the same sort of thing.
The original TCS230 module was a three-way collaboration among TAOS, Parallax, and myself. I'd done work for TAOS prior to that, and they introduced me to Parallax (in a role other than customer -- I'd used Parallax's PIC tools before that). The original TCS230 module, which I designed, came in two boards joined by a ribbon cable, one board of which plugged into the AppMod connector on the BOE. Along with the hardware design, I also did the BASIC Stamp-resident driver and the PC-resident color matching program. I had the boards fabbed in Canada, purchased lenses from Korea, and had everything assembled and packaged here in the States. For the assembly process, I also had to design and build a go/no-go tester for 100% functional testing by the assembler. I sold the modules both to Parallax and to TAOS. The module set retailed for $79. TAOS sold it as their EVM for the TCS230, along with a BOE.
After I designed the BASIC Stamp-2pe Motherboard (which is made in China), it was decided to redesign the TCS230 module to fit it, rather than the BOE. Ken convinced me that it would be less of a hassle for me to have the TCS230-DB manufactured in China, as well, and that I could receive a royalty from each sale. This was attractive, because I was having inventory control issues with my assembler, and he didn't really want to make them anymore. (The LED assembly is a major pain to put together and solder.) Moreover, the Chinese could fabricate a box for the set that was cheaper, smaller and easier to ship than the 2x2x3" boxes I was able to get here. By this time, though, the Korean company had quit making the lenses we used, and I had to find another source. I also had to build a different test unit, which got sent to China for the testing. I still had the boards made in Canada, though, because the Canadian company was able to reproduce TAOS' logo so well in silkscreen. (Most fab houses can't reproduce the detail required.) In this phase of the project the boards retailed for $65, later dropping to the present $59. Parallax also sold them to TAOS.
In the third phase, TAOS discontinued the TCS230 chip, replacing it with the TCS3200, which is pin-compatible, but with different sensitivity. That was accommodated with a change in the BASIC Stamp program. The board also required a redesign of the silkscreen layer to conform to the new product designation. Again, the boards were fabbed in Canada and sent to China.
That brings us to the current phase of the project and the reason Parallax is currently out of product (mea culpa). I had found a reliable assembly house in the States for the TSL1401-DB and convinced Ken to let me repatriate the TCS3200-DB assembly. As is typical in the optics business, the Chinese company that was providing the lenses discontinued the model we were using, and I had to sample new ones. The LED manufacturer also replaced the white LEDs we were using with units that are a lot brighter. Taken together, this meant coming up with different component values for the LED current regulation, so the sensor response would match that of previous models as closely as possible. To make sure that an entire batch of 1000 modules would have the same response, I had to purchase 1000 lenses (in case they, too, got discontinued) and 2000 LEDs from the same lot and brightness binning. Then the Japan earthquake happened. Unfortunately, the company that makes the MoBo-DB connectors was affected, and I had to scramble to get enough of them to get the first batch assembled. All told, I've spent in excess of ten grand to get the project restarted domestically.
Hopefully, this will give a better view of what goes on behind the scenes to bring a product to market and shed some light on all the nets dipping into Parallax's revenue stream, including myself, the board fab house, parts wholesalers, the assembly house, FedEx, UPS, and U.S. Customs.
Today I should receive the first batch of modules from my assembler. They'll be bulk-shipped in open static bags, so I can test and package them here. The anticipation is both exhilarating and stressful. Wish me luck!
-Phil
Nice view behind the curtain. Glad to see assembly bought back to USA.
C.W.
Thanks for the description of your process. If nothing else, it sheds a lot of light on the difference between making one or two devices for personal use and developing a commercial product.
you have no idea hov much I appreciate your candid response. I really did not expected that.
I am getting accustomed to the heat I generally get as responses to my rants!
And I am slow learner to realize that most people either do not read them (in detail) or just do not care.
But I am surprised that our sponsor did not respond, but generally they do not get involved in rants.
Anyway, I am going to buy the chip from ......
And if I really need the lens (later), can I trade with you directly?
I think I have old Instamatic camera somewhere,
Thanks
Vaclav
Unfortunately, all the lenses I've obtained are committed to this particular build, so I don't have extras to sell. In the following post, I've listed several domestic sources for lenses that will sell in small quantities:
Be sure to get one with an IR-cut filter. The TCS3200 requires it, since IR gets through the color filters on the die.
Good luck with your project!
-Phil
the ref thread is very helpfull.
I may ask the fellow you correspoded with how he got samples from TAOS.
They seems to avoid even talking about it. But that would be another pointless rant. I better quit for a while.
I also "discovered UKAoptics" so I may get their lense holder.
I may actually use IR , but I really need to do some testing before this idea gets off the ground.
Vaclav