Hey Guys,
Not to beat a dead horse but here is my 2 cents....
First a little background - 45 year old IT professional with not much free-time and a love of tinkering and robotics... Very interested in learning but not so good at scratch coding software, and frankly not enough time to learn it properly. So I just read every post in the thread and I now understand why I still use the BS2 series! If you would look at this from the perspective of a student (yes, I know a pain in the backside and yes they cheat and ask the same questions 400 times (Bless you Mike Green)) and the others like myself who are just looking for a healthy, challenging weekend project why would I even consider MUCH less understand the prop and it's 100 (exaggerating) iterations of software / boards etc. Seriously when you look at it from my perspective and read this very thread from start to finish it just makes me want to run away! What the heck are all of the acronyms and options being tossed around and what is the value proposition for my hard earned money to toss all my stamp stuff and go with a prop or arduino?
Seriously, what the heck is an Arduino, sled, C++ (what the heck do I do with that?) 3.3v / 5v this board, that board, cog's, prop, spin, spinneret.... What the heck does all of that do and what one do I need and want to make a nice weekend... Get my point?
The only reason I am here and am able to do anything at all is from this forum and the fantastic materials that Parallax put out, the N&V columns and folks like Jon Williams, etc.
My point being that there needs to be a concerted effort to bring the prop to the "masses" like the BS2 did or it is doomed to something half finished and never fully realized. What the heck is spin and how does that use my 10 years of playing with the BS2... oh it doesn't? Well why bother? Parallax needs the mass production of the schools/universities/Radio Shacks of the world to keep profitable and the engineer types (you all) that can understand and work with this every day will build upon that base and make many cool things, however I think it is very narrow minded to assume that only really brilliant educated experts in code and logic are using these devices. Some of us just want to Smile the wife off with an automated beer deliver system on Sat afternoons
So if somebody would tell me how to code a prop in basic... then I will give it a shot, until then I am happy and devoted BS2 user who has no idea what to do with an arduino or prop. Maybe I'm off the main point but I feel that we have lost something and that there is a lack of cohesion that used to be there, maybe I'm just being nostalgic.
We released PropGFX Lite under the creative commons licence making it freely available for non commercial activities.
To date we have only seen a couple of users take it up to do anything with it, this was a little disappointing but not surprising to be honest.
We did this to gauge interest in the product and see if it would be worth producing some PCB's, as there wasn't much (if any) we have now moved onto other things.
We are still committed to Propeller (I have 4 commercial products that use Propeller) and this great forum which is one of the best there is on the net.
So if somebody would tell me how to code a prop in basic... then I will give it a shot, until then I am happy and devoted BS2 user who has no idea what to do with an arduino or prop. Maybe I'm off the main point but I feel that we have lost something and that there is a lack of cohesion that used to be there, maybe I'm just being nostalgic.
Even the Arduino is sprouting numerous variations. When I first made (a homemade) one it was the serial '168 sort, you could use a '88 but that would have little cost advantage. then there was work on a '128 one then a '644 one ...
Then there are all of the Arduino (ish) versions using every other type of chips. So the Prop isn't the only one not to have settled on the "one true path".
I think the "churn" of the forums, (unintentional) is what has caused many projects like DeepFry to become buried. There are a few of us who have taken the time to create best of lists to keep these projects nearer to the surface. I'm one of these people..
As for folks not wanting to help, 95% of this group is always willing to answer questions. The only time I've seen anyone turned away was if it appeared they were trying to cheat on a class project. Even then, I've seen folks steer them back into learning mode.
Re-read your message a couple times, then re-read the entirety of the thread.. Hopefully, I've understood you correctly.
@Everyone: Guess you guys can figure out which direction I went..
thanks oldbitcollector i do know what you mean, i did not mean to imply that EVERYone did not want to help.
"churn" is to be expected that is why a forum for completed projects would be nice or a site. That completed software page is why i like propeller powered your site.
i was a bit frustrated for my lack of time and was hoping someone would consider helping my ideal along or something like that.
rayslogic pointed to his falshpoint modual but i couldn't really "get" his code but he was helpful in the fact he was trying to understand me.
potatohead seemed encouraging.
but one post seemed to say
it will be hard or impossible and here is why. but that was something i knew.
i know i will be limited by bandwith to how fast frames can be shown.
all my goal was is saving the hub memory using SPI ram as a place for a graphic page and or have a second chip to make the graphic while the prop displays it.
All i am saying help or don't help, there is no need to say you WONT help. that just sounds mean if your incorrect about you assumptions.
Do I sound unreasonable?
ElectricAye
No prb me 2 whn i wnt 2 xprs myslf or ask 4hlp i tip w/my tooes. ur awsm on cel.
is this honest or sarchasim i don't know/care, just kidding.
but really how do you know if a person is a cheater? unless you implicitly assist in cheating, you are not to blame, and honestly if they are cheating you cant stop them they have to see what cheating gets you, a free ride to failure.
here is a free formula
guitar hero controller + prop + SIDcog = chiptune guitar!
Part of the problem on these things is just difficulty communicating through text. I'm pretty sure the "impossible" is referring to the difficulty displaying graphics from external memory. That is bandwidth, or as I would phrase it, throughput, limited.
However, if you had one prop fetching from your SPI RAM, doing it like you are doing now, pages could be swapped in, like you say. My response, had I the time before doing this quick one, was going to be along the lines of using plot is fine for getting started, but kind of slow. Once you've got the graphics screen up and running, you could write directly to the HUB, avoiding plot entirely. Just fetch from your RAM, and write to the HUB, using a simple loop. Plot is good to get started with though. Easy.
When the video signal is being generated directly from the RAM, it requires a minimum throughput of bytes / second. However, if you can use the prop like you are now, essentially buffering with the HUB, your limit is then just how many bytes you can move per second. From there, what you do with it is up to you. If it's possible to fill a screen 8-15 times per second, swapping what the display prop "sees", you've got something useful, IMHO. Could do movies, animations, games and such easily enough. At the very least, you will have learned a bunch of neat stuff, meaning there really isn't failure, just varying degrees of success!
And that's the point of many of the graphics bits you find. Building your own pixel path is usually fastest, depending on the hardware you've got to work with, however, that's also difficult too. Getting started using stuff that is built up is a great way to experiment and have some fun, and most importantly, see some results along the way. Most of us who have done video driver and graphics work started with the code Chip wrote, slowly understanding it down to the lowest level. Kurenko has pushed it AGAIN (funny how that works in Prop land), exploiting the timing of how waitvid works, to get pixel rates most of us would have again said, "impossible" to, just a short time ago. The Prop is a fun chip that way! (and of course, that means learning is happening too, for me personally stepping through his code to see how it all works, just as most of us do regularly)
The level of technical knowledge here is very high. At times that can be a barrier. My advice would be to just ignore that, and post up your stuff and get the feedback and continue building. Lots of us have done just that. You say you know a bunch of people who would not post?
Very curious about that. Honestly, they should post, because it's fun. I've noted the distinct lack of more "fun" stuff here, as there is some intense building of higher level tools and such going on. Nothing says that has to dominate though. I personally would love nothing more than to see a bunch of people jump in, doing their thing however they do it, and at whatever level they are doing it at. Many here feel the same way, though it's not often said. Maybe it should be, which is the point of this post in particular.
And, if you have a crowd, then you've got some mindshare, bending the forum a little bit your way too. Worth thinking about, should you decide to rope a few of them in. They are welcome, and from where I stand, defintely encouraged. Tell 'em I said, "Hi"
I should also note "impossible" has a special meaning around here. We've heard "impossible" a lot of times, only to see somebody doing it well a few months later. It's happened enough times to be a running joke.
In any case, have fun, and thanks for posting up your code. I'll have a look see later this week. Was thinking about suggesting a modification to the graphics cog more aligned with what you are trying to do. Have fun though. That's first and foremost.
@codeviper, I will stand behind my response to you. Your original request was for code which would read from SPI RAM and generate video without storing the pixels in HUB RAM. If you use a HUB RAM frame buffer then the bandwidth limitation becomes a framerate limitation. And I'm sorry if you didn't get your expected result to your "help me because I want to do something which I think is cool" request. BTW, I am glad you found my NTSC4x2 driver useful.
The "churn" of this forum is what sort of attracted me to the Prop. Some of the others have plaintive crys of "HELP" left up for years (or they reply curtly, and put you right off). The views that turn up constantly here are bound to inspire splinter thought, and there we are, yet another format.
Comments
Not to beat a dead horse but here is my 2 cents....
First a little background - 45 year old IT professional with not much free-time and a love of tinkering and robotics... Very interested in learning but not so good at scratch coding software, and frankly not enough time to learn it properly. So I just read every post in the thread and I now understand why I still use the BS2 series! If you would look at this from the perspective of a student (yes, I know a pain in the backside and yes they cheat and ask the same questions 400 times (Bless you Mike Green)) and the others like myself who are just looking for a healthy, challenging weekend project why would I even consider MUCH less understand the prop and it's 100 (exaggerating) iterations of software / boards etc. Seriously when you look at it from my perspective and read this very thread from start to finish it just makes me want to run away! What the heck are all of the acronyms and options being tossed around and what is the value proposition for my hard earned money to toss all my stamp stuff and go with a prop or arduino?
Seriously, what the heck is an Arduino, sled, C++ (what the heck do I do with that?) 3.3v / 5v this board, that board, cog's, prop, spin, spinneret.... What the heck does all of that do and what one do I need and want to make a nice weekend... Get my point?
The only reason I am here and am able to do anything at all is from this forum and the fantastic materials that Parallax put out, the N&V columns and folks like Jon Williams, etc.
My point being that there needs to be a concerted effort to bring the prop to the "masses" like the BS2 did or it is doomed to something half finished and never fully realized. What the heck is spin and how does that use my 10 years of playing with the BS2... oh it doesn't? Well why bother? Parallax needs the mass production of the schools/universities/Radio Shacks of the world to keep profitable and the engineer types (you all) that can understand and work with this every day will build upon that base and make many cool things, however I think it is very narrow minded to assume that only really brilliant educated experts in code and logic are using these devices. Some of us just want to Smile the wife off with an automated beer deliver system on Sat afternoons
So if somebody would tell me how to code a prop in basic... then I will give it a shot, until then I am happy and devoted BS2 user who has no idea what to do with an arduino or prop. Maybe I'm off the main point but I feel that we have lost something and that there is a lack of cohesion that used to be there, maybe I'm just being nostalgic.
We released PropGFX Lite under the creative commons licence making it freely available for non commercial activities.
To date we have only seen a couple of users take it up to do anything with it, this was a little disappointing but not surprising to be honest.
We did this to gauge interest in the product and see if it would be worth producing some PCB's, as there wasn't much (if any) we have now moved onto other things.
We are still committed to Propeller (I have 4 commercial products that use Propeller) and this great forum which is one of the best there is on the net.
Regards,
Coley
How about PropBasic? It really is great!
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?118611-Download-PropBASIC-here...-00.01.14-July-27-2011
Then there are all of the Arduino (ish) versions using every other type of chips. So the Prop isn't the only one not to have settled on the "one true path".
No prb me 2 whn i wnt 2 xprs myslf or ask 4hlp i tip w/my tooes. ur awsm on cel.
I think the "churn" of the forums, (unintentional) is what has caused many projects like DeepFry to become buried. There are a few of us who have taken the time to create best of lists to keep these projects nearer to the surface. I'm one of these people..
Here's a few bookmarks you might want:
Gadget Gangster News Feed. (Includes many projects from the forums and has a slower pace)
http://www.gadgetgangster.com/news.html
Parallax Resource Sticky
http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?111166-Propeller-Resource-Index
Music and Audio Resources for the Propeller
http://www.gadgetgangster.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=82
Propellerpowered list of Propeller Games
http://www.propellerpowered.com/propellergaming/
As for folks not wanting to help, 95% of this group is always willing to answer questions. The only time I've seen anyone turned away was if it appeared they were trying to cheat on a class project. Even then, I've seen folks steer them back into learning mode.
Re-read your message a couple times, then re-read the entirety of the thread.. Hopefully, I've understood you correctly.
@Everyone: Guess you guys can figure out which direction I went..
OBC
"churn" is to be expected that is why a forum for completed projects would be nice or a site. That completed software page is why i like propeller powered your site.
i was a bit frustrated for my lack of time and was hoping someone would consider helping my ideal along or something like that.
rayslogic pointed to his falshpoint modual but i couldn't really "get" his code but he was helpful in the fact he was trying to understand me.
potatohead seemed encouraging.
but one post seemed to say
it will be hard or impossible and here is why. but that was something i knew.
i know i will be limited by bandwith to how fast frames can be shown.
all my goal was is saving the hub memory using SPI ram as a place for a graphic page and or have a second chip to make the graphic while the prop displays it.
All i am saying help or don't help, there is no need to say you WONT help. that just sounds mean if your incorrect about you assumptions.
Do I sound unreasonable?
ElectricAye
No prb me 2 whn i wnt 2 xprs myslf or ask 4hlp i tip w/my tooes. ur awsm on cel.
is this honest or sarchasim i don't know/care, just kidding.
but really how do you know if a person is a cheater? unless you implicitly assist in cheating, you are not to blame, and honestly if they are cheating you cant stop them they have to see what cheating gets you, a free ride to failure.
here is a free formula
guitar hero controller + prop + SIDcog = chiptune guitar!
Part of the problem on these things is just difficulty communicating through text. I'm pretty sure the "impossible" is referring to the difficulty displaying graphics from external memory. That is bandwidth, or as I would phrase it, throughput, limited.
However, if you had one prop fetching from your SPI RAM, doing it like you are doing now, pages could be swapped in, like you say. My response, had I the time before doing this quick one, was going to be along the lines of using plot is fine for getting started, but kind of slow. Once you've got the graphics screen up and running, you could write directly to the HUB, avoiding plot entirely. Just fetch from your RAM, and write to the HUB, using a simple loop. Plot is good to get started with though. Easy.
When the video signal is being generated directly from the RAM, it requires a minimum throughput of bytes / second. However, if you can use the prop like you are now, essentially buffering with the HUB, your limit is then just how many bytes you can move per second. From there, what you do with it is up to you. If it's possible to fill a screen 8-15 times per second, swapping what the display prop "sees", you've got something useful, IMHO. Could do movies, animations, games and such easily enough. At the very least, you will have learned a bunch of neat stuff, meaning there really isn't failure, just varying degrees of success!
And that's the point of many of the graphics bits you find. Building your own pixel path is usually fastest, depending on the hardware you've got to work with, however, that's also difficult too. Getting started using stuff that is built up is a great way to experiment and have some fun, and most importantly, see some results along the way. Most of us who have done video driver and graphics work started with the code Chip wrote, slowly understanding it down to the lowest level. Kurenko has pushed it AGAIN (funny how that works in Prop land), exploiting the timing of how waitvid works, to get pixel rates most of us would have again said, "impossible" to, just a short time ago. The Prop is a fun chip that way! (and of course, that means learning is happening too, for me personally stepping through his code to see how it all works, just as most of us do regularly)
The level of technical knowledge here is very high. At times that can be a barrier. My advice would be to just ignore that, and post up your stuff and get the feedback and continue building. Lots of us have done just that. You say you know a bunch of people who would not post?
Very curious about that. Honestly, they should post, because it's fun. I've noted the distinct lack of more "fun" stuff here, as there is some intense building of higher level tools and such going on. Nothing says that has to dominate though. I personally would love nothing more than to see a bunch of people jump in, doing their thing however they do it, and at whatever level they are doing it at. Many here feel the same way, though it's not often said. Maybe it should be, which is the point of this post in particular.
And, if you have a crowd, then you've got some mindshare, bending the forum a little bit your way too. Worth thinking about, should you decide to rope a few of them in. They are welcome, and from where I stand, defintely encouraged. Tell 'em I said, "Hi"
I should also note "impossible" has a special meaning around here. We've heard "impossible" a lot of times, only to see somebody doing it well a few months later. It's happened enough times to be a running joke.
In any case, have fun, and thanks for posting up your code. I'll have a look see later this week. Was thinking about suggesting a modification to the graphics cog more aligned with what you are trying to do. Have fun though. That's first and foremost.
Heck yeah! Is this your desired project? I can see Ahle2 definitely getting behind you on this one.
OBC
Had no idea.... off to take a look and maybe I can finally try out a prop. Thanks for helping a thick headed BS2 nut!