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What is the OS world comming to??? — Parallax Forums

What is the OS world comming to???

davidsaundersdavidsaunders Posts: 1,559
edited 2011-05-03 13:41 in General Discussion
I just found that a certain new version of a well known OS (that shall remain nameless), by a certain well known company (that shall remain nameless), no longer supports standard Game Ports or traditional UART chips for RS232. As such I ask what has the OS world come to that we can no longer rely on drivers for ports that are needed for hundreds of thousands of devices?

Comments

  • Erik FriesenErik Friesen Posts: 1,071
    edited 2011-04-30 15:45
    Are you sure about your source? cdc class usb isn't going away any time soon that I know of.
  • davidsaundersdavidsaunders Posts: 1,559
    edited 2011-04-30 15:48
    Erik, I know this, the name 7 does not support the old traditional devices of the types mentioned above (I am not speaking of the USB adapters).
  • Erik FriesenErik Friesen Posts: 1,071
    edited 2011-04-30 15:50
    I have a real rs232 port on my vostro 420 that works fine on win7x64. The only issue I have is that the installed driver doesn't let me go higher than 115200.
  • davidsaundersdavidsaunders Posts: 1,559
    edited 2011-04-30 15:57
    Erik:
    May I ask what UART you are using??
    Also have you seen a standard Game Port working??
  • Erik FriesenErik Friesen Posts: 1,071
    edited 2011-04-30 16:08
    I am not sure what you mean by 'UART', It is called installed as COM1 on my machine.
  • davidsaundersdavidsaunders Posts: 1,559
    edited 2011-04-30 16:14
    Erik:
    The UART (universal asynchronous receiver/transmitter) is basically the chip that controls traditional serial ports. The reason I ask is some newer machines use an USB adapter internally to give you an externally accessible RS232 port. For more information on UART see:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UART
  • Erik FriesenErik Friesen Posts: 1,071
    edited 2011-04-30 16:37
    Mine show up on Intel(R) ICH10R LPC Interface Controller - 3A16

    Uses serial.sys as the driver, is on IRQ 4
  • Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi)Phil Pilgrim (PhiPi) Posts: 23,514
    edited 2011-04-30 18:31
    I'm not sure what difference any of this makes. Any computer old enough to have legacy RS232 or game ports probably doesn't have enough memory or horsepower to support Microsoft Windows 7 anyway. And, as to UART vs. USB-to-serial, as long as it's a work-alike, who cares what lies between the CPU and the RS232 physical layer?

    -Phil
  • davidsaundersdavidsaunders Posts: 1,559
    edited 2011-04-30 18:58
    Phil:
    I do, I still buy brand new Game Ports and serial cards (using the traditional UARTS) and every PC compatible has both (it would not be a 'PC/AT' or 'PS/2' compatible with out the UART, and no one wants a USB bottle neck on there game controllers).
  • Peter KG6LSEPeter KG6LSE Posts: 1,383
    edited 2011-04-30 22:39
    Dave . bottle neck !? . Now I realize that USB is not full time BI directional ( unlike firewire and others) , its master slave.
    But at 480 MBPS .


    thats Boat load more bandwith then RS232 Will EVER support .
    230kBPS is a Huge order slower around 2000 times slower ..

    I Highly doubt that any delay from a USB to serial adapter is going to be a issue

    If its fast enough for HD video and many channels of sound its WAY fast enugh for plain jane serial ... or for game ports .


    Evin USB 1.1 has Plenty of head room...


    :)



    Peter
  • davidsaundersdavidsaunders Posts: 1,559
    edited 2011-05-01 19:15
    Peter:
    USB is fast enough if you do not have hundreds of high speed devices hooked to it, then it gets so slow that the mouse can become jerky and you can have noticeable delays on the KB (if you use USB for KB/Mouse)
    This is why I use PS/2 for KBs and mouses, PCI-X Graphics adapters, PCI Sound Cards, PCI Video Capture cards, LPT printers, pATA HDDs & CDROMS, SCSI 3 CDR/DVDR/RW, etc...
  • Peter KG6LSEPeter KG6LSE Posts: 1,383
    edited 2011-05-01 22:46
    USB only supports up to 127 devices on one port .
    You would be lucky to bus power 20 Mice off USB let alone 100s of devices . 500mA is not a lot of power .




    computers change and there is nothing you or I can do anything about it..

    but we have one choice .

    we can hold on to dead stuff like OS 9 and PPC EiDE and PCI ISA SDRAM ADB PS2 IRDA SCSI FLOPPY . and some day have a rude awakinging that we never upgraded when we should have .

    ( with the way Vista was made the writing was on the wall for years .. )

    Or we can be proactive and not be on the bleeding edge but right next to it and not let this stuff of change slow us down .
    bere in mind I used a G4 on OS9 till 08 then the old lady went up in a ball of fire ( no joke) and the next month I had this mini . . now its geting old as its OS 10.5.8 . but I dont have the need to upgrade as its supported as far as apps go . I spent over 5 Grand getting new SW for a entire new platform when the G4 let the smoke out . . had I upgraded to OS X and the apps then in 03 It would have saved me over 3 grand .

    Peter
  • LoopyBytelooseLoopyByteloose Posts: 12,537
    edited 2011-05-02 06:35
    What are you expecting? MS and Apple support manufacturers that patronize their OS. MS has always been willing to push bigger systems than necessary on the buyer.

    Linux remains the OS that is willing to let the user determine when his hardware is out-dated. And you might look at Free DOS for yet another interesting bit of retro computing.
  • davidsaundersdavidsaunders Posts: 1,559
    edited 2011-05-02 12:01
    For my own use I do use Linux, My customers for PC/AT compatibles want Windoze (this is the problem).
    I am aware that USB only supports 128 devices (127 + host) per bus, I am also aware of the power issues (hence most high end USB being separately powered).

    I have long let go of 'Dead tech'. It is not dead if every one still uses it (USB to RS232 is still RS232) there is a reason that all high end mother boards still come with PS/2. Only the low end 'throw away' boards do not have PS/2.
  • vaclav_salvaclav_sal Posts: 451
    edited 2011-05-02 13:00
    While writing real time video processing application using OpenCV I run into a “hidden" limits of USB and Windoze OS - each device connected via USB shares a bandwidth and OS will complain when this bandwidth is excessive. Windoze will simply lock out the "offending" device!
    So, the limits of connecting 128 via USB to PC is misleading and generally non issue anyway.
    Also, until recently Windoze XP had a real issue starting up USB devices.
    And please – do not blame it on old drivers.
    XP SP3 apparently fixed the problem.

    So before MS abandons serial port they better learn how to operate USB properly.
  • WBA ConsultingWBA Consulting Posts: 2,935
    edited 2011-05-02 14:07
    Since Win7 supports compatibility modes, I don't see why you could ever say that they don't support serial UARTs. My MediaPC (running Win7 Premium) has 4 devices on it that are specifically listed as 100% non-Win7 compatible and yet by utilizing some simple tricks with drivers and compatibility mode, I am using all 4 devices.

    @PhiPi: While the saying "only old computers have serial ports" is the typical feeling about serial ports, it's actually far from being true. Computers are readily available that have way more than enough horsepower to run Win7 and have serial port(s) onboard. Servers, industrial PCs, "CarPuters", rack mount PCs, gaming PCs, etc, have onboard serial ports.
  • Erik FriesenErik Friesen Posts: 1,071
    edited 2011-05-02 14:12
    It doesn't seem fair to compare 128 usb devices to a few serial ports. No matter what the os is, usb is going to take bandwidth. 128 serial ports would take considerable bandwidth also! USB is probably the most successful peripheral design ever, partly because it is rather complicated, but well defined. And Microsoft is part of the USB-IF if I have it right.
  • davidsaundersdavidsaunders Posts: 1,559
    edited 2011-05-02 18:35
    Erik:
    Windoze is one of the most successful OS shells (it is not an OS [NT (modified MS-OS/2)], or DOS is the OS), that does not make it good (as most who are familiar with it and others can attest). Thus the argument of USB being successful is not a good argument. Yes, MS is on the USB committee, maybe that is the problem with USB.
  • Jorge PJorge P Posts: 385
    edited 2011-05-03 10:40
    Most services for compatability are indeed included in all versions of windoze 7 however some need to be enable and installed. Its been a while since the beta and I dont recall exactly what you need to click on the public releases. Everything you can do in Profesional can be done in the Home versions if you play around with what was formerly called "Install Windows Components". I had IIS running and serving silverlight to the www untill I moved to NY about 9 months ago.

    I have heard and seen news stating that ms and novel will eventualy merger in the next few years and come out with a new OS supporting both *NIX and MS compatability, but both companies seem to not go pulic with the info yet. Oops, was I supposed to say that.:nerd: Maybee thats why MS started a buyback of a ton of their shares last year, they need to make a large purchase.;)

    These competing OS's will all have compatibility with each other in the coming weeks/months/years as it has become a required need by the public at large like us, and a bunch of developers having to write code for multiple OS's to support a single product.

    if you want to see what might be coming out in the future from MS checkout MS's connect website if you havn't already, you may get an invitation to some new things. Not to mention offering feedback directly to ms staff and developers regarding what you expect from them/their software.

    http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2011/03/24/novell_cptn_germany/
  • davidsaundersdavidsaunders Posts: 1,559
    edited 2011-05-03 13:22
    I have solved this issue, I am now telling my customers 'if you want a PC/AT compatible computer newer Windows will not be able to take advantageo of the HW so I will provide Linux, Haiku OS, or AROS'.
  • RobotWorkshopRobotWorkshop Posts: 2,307
    edited 2011-05-03 13:41
    davidsaunders wrote: »
    I have solved this issue, I am now telling my customers 'if you want a PC/AT compatible computer newer Windows will not be able to take advantageo of the HW so I will provide Linux, Haiku OS, or AROS'.

    Here is a PCI serial card that is supposed to work under Windows 7:

    http://www.perle.com/products/serial-parallel-pci-card/SPEED2LE1P-2-port-serial-parallel-pci-card.shtml

    Here is a PCI-Express card:

    http://www.perle.com/products/pci-express-parallel-card/SPEED1LE1P-Express-1-port-serial-parallel-pci-express-card.shtml

    According the Wiki entry here:

    http://www.perle.com/products/pci-express-parallel-card/SPEED1LE1P-Express-1-port-serial-parallel-pci-express-card.shtml

    Microsoft has stopped supporting the game cards directly in the OS so it moves on to 3rd party for support. Looks like drivers are there for some of the creative sound cards that work with Windows 7. For some devices not having the drivers directly in the Windows OS isn't a big deal. As long at they don't block access to third party drivers and/or going directly at the HW it shouldn't be a problem.

    Robert
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