For what ever its worth; I design using the propeller in almost every unit that my company sells. I work for a science research company and my boss thinks the little IC is great. I also run a small design consultant company and try to use the propeller as much as possible. My draw back is that if the PROP 2 doesn't come out soon I will be forced to move on to a FPGA or some other IC that can take on the needs of my costumers / boss.
I think the lack of periperhials discussion we had a while back is perfect.
There should be gold objects that are reference implementations of the common things, just like we have for video. The Parallax reference video objects are quite nice really. Tons more can be done, of course, but those are there no matter what. Do the same for the heavy hitters, and then include those as reference specifications, provided in software as the user requires them.
Exceeding those specifications is possible, and often practical, and that's the current OBEX we know and love.
At the very least, those implementation would communicate what can be done in a simple way, not requiring the user to visualize how to do it and get excited about that, but just doing it and being excited about that. Get that done, and they will naturally become excited with the hows at a level that let's them push the boundary some.
Oh, it's always some of us wondering about the chip we love to work with. When that happens, people tend to both identify with, and personify technology, resulting in this kind of meta-discussion, not unlike the who likes who discussions we had as kids.
I always see it happen, and the tech in question doesn't matter.
@mactuxlin: The robot is awesome. And it's Propeller Powered! I hope your robot will be featured in those tech websites.
Btw, I'm living just beside your place (in the Peninsular), and I had a tough time with my folks who still uses PIC16F84, and the usual PIC16F887A and refused to embrace the parallel processing. I have the Propellers on my hand, but I hadn't demonstrated it to my university staff due to my workload. (I'm a postgraduate student and a research assistant)
@mactuxlin: The robot is awesome. And it's Propeller Powered! I hope your robot will be featured in those tech websites.
Btw, I'm living just beside your place (in the Peninsular), and I had a tough time with my folks who still uses PIC16F84, and the usual PIC16F887A and refused to embrace the parallel processing. I have the Propellers on my hand, but I hadn't demonstrated it to my university staff due to my workload. (I'm a postgraduate student and a research assistant)
Thanks! Yes, I truly hope so. Tried a number of them but guess I'm a lousy salesman
Yeap. It is fully powered by 1 propeller for the motion, voice & eye expression but this is still in proto-type phase, though. While evaluating the right uP for the job (all the commonly know) but when I looked at prop, I said to myself "This is it!" and then its history (a short one though )
I have the Android app that controls the robot via WLAN to a gateway (in VB.Net-Client) and it is connected to MTY (robot).
The real good thing about the prop is rapid crystallization of an idea to a product. Try that with an At...
For me, the Propeller made the difference between flatly telling my boss that we did not have the resources to produce something in-house that he's long wanted to do, and telling him that there was a way I believed would work. The other CPUs competing with the Propeller simply didn't do that for me; I saw that I'd end up in a quagmire of interrupt priority levels, SMT construction, and high-speed off-chip busses.
Incidentally, I get the impression Parallax is about the same size as the industrial distributor I work for. We've been in business for over 60 years. Being small doesn't mean being unreliable; it can mean that you're highly capitalized, have made conservative business decisions, and pay your bills the day they come in instead of day 59 on net 30 terms.
The voice is created by the propeller too:zombie:???
Thanks Stefan. There were a number of ideas for the voice but for now, we'd settled for a real human voice for this proto-type version (and first MP version). Children have short attention span so the voice being interesting is also a real major factor.
Yes, we're definitely gonna place more effort in the motion. Thank you!
I was reading through the forum and after reading this I just had to pop in and comment. I was a bit skeptical at first myself but after using one in a little project on a whim I was sold. I'm actually using 2 as part of a CubeSat module. The prototype (built on two Propeller Proto Board USBs) is due for high energy gamma testing but if it passes with the safeguards we worked out I may end up designing a control board as well.
MacTuxLin: We were in your neck of the woods just over a week ago visiting my daughter who teaches there. DO you have a link for your robotic?
O_o Yes!! Please visit our web-site: http://eStory.com.sg. We have started our soft promotion to a primary school here in Singapore with 2 simple educational online games. The direction of eStory.com.sg is to present children stories (with good morals) and knowledge/facts through a mini humanoid robot.
We have completed almost 60 stories which includes both English & Chinese versions. There are also aerobic dances too All the stories & multimedia contents are created in-house (re-told and new creations) together with music & voices.
On the robot side, the MP-version is still work-in-progress but models that's good for road-shows will be by end-May this year. If it is appropriate, me & my small team would love to give your daughter's school a storytelling presentation by our MTY
Oh, so sorry, I think I've stray off the purpose of this thread ....
This forum seems to be very active, so that's an indication that the Prop is catching on. A good indication would be if we knew the number of Props sold and the number of customers that are buying them. I am guessing that those numbers are increasing, but only Parallax would know for sure.
One way to guess at the volume would be to total up the volumes of all the products that contain the Prop. Of course, there are probably quite a few products that contain the Prop that we're not aware of.
This forum seems to be very active, so that's an indication that the Prop is catching on. A good indication would be if we knew the number of Props sold and the number of customers that are buying them. I am guessing that those numbers are increasing, but only Parallax would know for sure..
A better indication would be the number of customers who are buying the Propeller in high volumes (>1000) as those are the customers who are probably using it in a commercial product.
There is a lot or forum activity, must most of what I see is coming from hobbyists and newbies looking for help.
Get projects on Hackaday that can beat the pants off Arduino and other micros and you WILL win customers. Of course getting all kinds of projects on Hackaday will help greatly.
My friend's project was featured on Hackaday. He had 864 web hits that day. Can you buy that kind of exposure? You could probably teach the prop through sites like Instructables. I can give you a list of sites but you also need a project. It seems like the same ones are contributing a majority of products to a number of sites and not just Hackaday. I think they have people paid to design, build and sell because that is how they make their money and one of them is a million dollar business.
For me, the Propeller made the difference between flatly telling my boss that we did not have the resources to produce something in-house that he's long wanted to do, and telling him that there was a way I believed would work. The other CPUs competing with the Propeller simply didn't do that for me; I saw that I'd end up in a quagmire of interrupt priority levels, SMT construction, and high-speed off-chip busses.
Incidentally, I get the impression Parallax is about the same size as the industrial distributor I work for. We've been in business for over 60 years. Being small doesn't mean being unreliable; it can mean that you're highly capitalized, have made conservative business decisions, and pay your bills the day they come in instead of day 59 on net 30 terms.
Thank you, localroger. This is correct - there's also some kind of illusion that large companies will provide more stable supply. During the 24 years Parallax has been in business we only end-of-lifed (EOL) one core product (SX chip). This exception was because we didn't own the intellectual property and the supplier was changing their business model. For our entire business lifespan to date we've received countless EOL notices from some of the large suppliers frequently identified in this discussion forum. The biggest concern we have when choosing a supplier is whether or not they have established their own revenue stream to support the business. Venture-funded companies can be very poor suppliers. They either survive, vaporize, or get bought out. Only one of these options is good for their customers. Parallax pays its bills the day they arrive and is managed conservatively to ensure long-term supply and consistency. This is boring business stuff, but it must accompany the technology sold by a company else they'll develop a poor reputation.
One way you can always find out something about supplier reliability is to ask your purchasing manager to do some research. They can identify situations really quickly.
Parallax pays its bills the day they arrive and is managed conservatively to ensure long-term supply and consistency. This is boring business stuff, but it must accompany the technology sold by a company else they'll develop a poor reputation.
We here on the forum all know this, but the average design engineer in industry, and especially the pointy-haired bosses he reports to, only know Parallax as a small company primarily focused on the hobby and education market (that is, if they've heard of Parallax at all).
Maybe Parallax could offer sort-of a rebate to product manufacturer who uses a Propeller in their product & that manufacturer must place a "Propeller Inside" sticker on their product. This could help propel Parallax's name ??? Just some crazy idea .....
We here on the forum all know this, but the average design engineer in industry, and especially the pointy-haired bosses he reports to, only know Parallax as a small company primarily focused on the hobby and education market (that is, if they've heard of Parallax at all).
Sal, I understand that as well. Parallax will likely always be a small company (<100 employees), as it's a model that is working well for most of our customers, the staff, and distributors. .
In regards to only serving hobby and education, this is certainly how it appears when you visit our web site and it is mostly reflective of the reality of our business mix (currently an even division among hobby/commercial/educational). Long before we had the educational and hobby focus we served a larger proportion of commercial customers. In the early 90's we produced over 20K PIC tools, PIC emulators, etc. Approximately 95% of the SX's volume have also gone to commercial users.
Hobby customers have a special place in Parallax's heart (and business). This isn't something we want to hide or diminish at all. They are a tremendous contributor to the business and provide most of the enthusiasm and appreciation that we consider our currency. It's also a trait that's deep in our roots, and the reason why our personal time is about making things. All of our technical staff have side projects that use the Propeller (including Chip!).
In May you will see and be part of some commercial evolution. We're in the middle of a six-month project that redesigns a portion of the business exclusively around the Propeller and the commercial customers who use the chip. Hobbyists will continue to benefit from the resources we are applying to commercial customers, and commercial customers will find themselves much more comfortable with the engineering support, appnotes, web site and business focus.
Some things mentioned in your posts above are best addressed with Propeller 2's introduction.
I wish I could spend more time on the forums to provide a Parallax perspective now and then.
A real life example of EOL Hell: One of our manufacturers designed an instrument in 1981 around the Texas Instruments TM9995 and TM9901. The firmware was written in Forth, and it used a discrete ADC made with op amps and comparators. It had a number of expansion cards for I/O options and extra capabilities. As technology improved it got more memory and battery backed RAM and a real time clock and more peripherals, but you could take a new motherboard and replace the one in one of their 1981 units, using the same original power supply and expansion cards, and it would work. That might sound kind of crazy, but industrial customers like that. Replacing that kind of technology, even with better technology, is expensive and risky. They finally did discontinue the unit though -- in the early 1990's, when Texas Instruments stopped making the chipset. The overall design was far too dependent on the TM9901 conroller chip, and none of the potential replacements could conveniently be made to work with the old power, I/O, and ADC scheme. Even though we've been telling people those units are unrepairable for over 15 years, I still know of a few that are still in service.
The same company is currently winding down production of a product they introduced in 1995 for the same reason, it being based on a 20 MHz 80186. There are THOUSANDS of these things in the field, all with end user customized software, and the new product that replaces it is only approximately compatible (similar control language but different physical form factor, different display, different external keyboard interface, and so on). Each one of those will have to be individually revisited when upgrade is necessary.
Ken: Thanks for chiming in. Yes, I think a number of us have correctly guessed Parallax's business model and sizing from what you have previously stated. I know you are proud of this, and I think to be fair, so are a lot of us on this forum.
I look forward to seeing your changes ready for the PropII. I know of no other company so eager to help its customers like Parallax. And I have visited and discussed future products under NDA with many of the big semi manufacturers over the years. I have received much more than this, right here on this forum, without NDAs.
Large semi companys discontinue products regularly, because the volume is not significant to their business models. That leaves the designer to redo their product, even if it can use another chip of the same family.
Many commercial products do not disclose the internals as one of their simple IP protection methods.
That said, a couple of the huge advantages of the prop are:
1. No Interrupts: Scary at first to someone who has never known any difference. Once understood, the concept is so simple and all of a sudden, the code becomes so much simpler/easier.
2. Software configured super-intelligent peripherals: Plainly not understood by most professionals!!! I said super-intelligent, because not only does it do, for example a simple UART, but in its basic form it hides the UART registers. But, we can then add higher level processing functions too, such as protocol adding/stripping, conversion, or whatever. To understand this, take the SD card interface. Here we also have high level function calls hiding the FAT16/32 interface.
Sorry to repeat again, but somehow the prop datasheet MUST SHOW the configurable peripherals in the block diagram, plus a description. We keep hearing the same thing from uninformed people that the prop lacks standard peripherals, and of course this is really untrue. It has many more than almost all micro chips, due to its flexibility. Obviously the prop does not have ethernet or USB (although there is the fore-runner non-compliant code), but then neither do most chips. Are there any chips that can have 15 UARTs??? What about 13 plus SD card??? or 3xVGA???
One last thing... Apple... How did the Apple ][ become popular. It had a hobbyist name - definately not professional. Well, a couple of guys wrote a spreadsheet program called supercal IIRC. We had a $20,000 package that ran on the minis I worked on, as did many other minis and mainframes. When run, they slowed the computers down so much that everyone complained. Supercalc and and Apple ][ cost about $2,500 and ran on the accountants desk and had more features, ran faster and did not interrupt the users. Presto, the Apple micro took off!!! The name did not matter one bit. The fact it was a tiny company did not matter.
I started developing my first Z80 based single-board computer with full video, bios etc back in 1978 at the age of 14 ... (skipping forward >> ) .... I started designing vertical market products in late 2007 with the PX8 (prop) chip and currently have developed the following: GSM/GPRS Telemetry Devices, GPS/GPRS Trackers, Wifi Trackers, Peltier Device Controllers, Overhead Video Displays, OBDII/GPRS Controllers, OBDII/Video Controllers, uBUS network controllers (proprietary network based on RS485), GSM/GPRS/GPS System Development Boards, Fiber Optic network controllers for in-vehicle communications, vehicle fuel injector controllers, vehicle immobilizers, plus many others (which I am doing for other companies and can't really disclose right now due to NDAs) - all uses the PX8 as it's main CPU, and some have up to 3 PX8 within one board.... I am, like many of you, eagerly awaiting the prop-II as I have request for video projects designs which needs high resolutions and more colors (I'm currently doing this with FPGAs) ... All my PX8 products are sold in vertical markets to other companies (I do custom hardware/firmware design for a living)...
...and breath out.
The GSM/GPRS/GPS System Development Board i mentioned above is something that I could release as open source to others in the forum if there is enough interest, as that was created in my spare time off the corporate clock... It basically allows you to use the SIM548C module (which we import in bulk) to create custom trackers and loggers. It has the socket for the module itself, GSM and GPS antenna holder, a few LEDs and switches as well as a PX8 with video output and an i/o port expansion. Perfect for development work ...
The LED driver project is something I did yesterday for my son (project is now finished). I basically took an old, not working led sign which I bought on eBay some years ago (it was one of the type that can be powered in the car at 12v) removed the main cpu, which was some sort of old atmel out of production cpu, and wired a prop chip to the row and columns to strobe the display (not groundbreaking technology) one hour later i had a fully functional super smooth, no flicker led sign :-) ... and not you can now have any of the many .c64 fonts as a direct drop in without modifying any code ... Having the prop attached to it, allows you to connect it to a pc and see chats (or anything really that you can send via USB or serial) scrolling across in big fat letters ...
Hope that gives you an idea of some of the things I do with the prop ...
I am not a very frequent visitor to the forum, but I do come by now and then to keep up with what's going on ... so I apologize if my replies are or will be slow ... My time is taken up mainly with work and family (I guess I am lucky that my hobby is my job) ...
That said, a couple of the huge advantages of the prop are:
1. No Interrupts: Scary at first to someone who has never known any difference. Once understood, the concept is so simple and all of a sudden, the code becomes so much simpler/easier.
2. Software configured super-intelligent peripherals: Plainly not understood by most professionals!!! I said super-intelligent, because not only does it do, for example a simple UART, but in its basic form it hides the UART registers. But, we can then add higher level processing functions too, such as protocol adding/stripping, conversion, or whatever. To understand this, take the SD card interface. Here we also have high level function calls hiding the FAT16/32 interface.
I'll grant you that interrupts often confound beginning coders and even confuse experienced programmers, but they're not the big bug-a-boo that many make them out to be. All of my ARM designs use interrupts extensively, and properly managed, they are neither hard to understand, write code for, or debug.
Your second point, however, is ridiculous. Intelligent peripherals, as you call them, are far from an exclusive advantage of the Propeller. Anyone can add higher level processing code to extend device drivers for more traditional MCUs to, for example, add a FAT16/32 interface, or a protocol layer to a UART subsystem.
Comments
There should be gold objects that are reference implementations of the common things, just like we have for video. The Parallax reference video objects are quite nice really. Tons more can be done, of course, but those are there no matter what. Do the same for the heavy hitters, and then include those as reference specifications, provided in software as the user requires them.
Exceeding those specifications is possible, and often practical, and that's the current OBEX we know and love.
At the very least, those implementation would communicate what can be done in a simple way, not requiring the user to visualize how to do it and get excited about that, but just doing it and being excited about that. Get that done, and they will naturally become excited with the hows at a level that let's them push the boundary some.
I always see it happen, and the tech in question doesn't matter.
Btw, I'm living just beside your place (in the Peninsular), and I had a tough time with my folks who still uses PIC16F84, and the usual PIC16F887A and refused to embrace the parallel processing. I have the Propellers on my hand, but I hadn't demonstrated it to my university staff due to my workload. (I'm a postgraduate student and a research assistant)
Posted! Yes, I've got a ton of questions about that robot. Pay a visit to comments and post up.
Thanks! Yes, I truly hope so. Tried a number of them but guess I'm a lousy salesman
Yeap. It is fully powered by 1 propeller for the motion, voice & eye expression but this is still in proto-type phase, though. While evaluating the right uP for the job (all the commonly know) but when I looked at prop, I said to myself "This is it!" and then its history (a short one though
I have the Android app that controls the robot via WLAN to a gateway (in VB.Net-Client) and it is connected to MTY (robot).
The real good thing about the prop is rapid crystallization of an idea to a product. Try that with an At...
Thanks a lot OBC!!! Okay, I'm visiting now ....
How is it done playing soundfiles or phonem synthetication???
wow waaayyyy cooool. Regardless of how it is created!
It's a really neat product. I see a lot of space for improving the movements to come closer
to elegant ballett.
best regards
Stefan
Incidentally, I get the impression Parallax is about the same size as the industrial distributor I work for. We've been in business for over 60 years. Being small doesn't mean being unreliable; it can mean that you're highly capitalized, have made conservative business decisions, and pay your bills the day they come in instead of day 59 on net 30 terms.
Thanks Stefan. There were a number of ideas for the voice but for now, we'd settled for a real human voice for this proto-type version (and first MP version). Children have short attention span so the voice being interesting is also a real major factor.
Yes, we're definitely gonna place more effort in the motion. Thank you!
www.alldaytime.co.uk
O_o Yes!! Please visit our web-site: http://eStory.com.sg. We have started our soft promotion to a primary school here in Singapore with 2 simple educational online games. The direction of eStory.com.sg is to present children stories (with good morals) and knowledge/facts through a mini humanoid robot.
We have completed almost 60 stories which includes both English & Chinese versions. There are also aerobic dances too
On the robot side, the MP-version is still work-in-progress but models that's good for road-shows will be by end-May this year. If it is appropriate, me & my small team would love to give your daughter's school a storytelling presentation by our MTY
Oh, so sorry, I think I've stray off the purpose of this thread ....
One way to guess at the volume would be to total up the volumes of all the products that contain the Prop. Of course, there are probably quite a few products that contain the Prop that we're not aware of.
A better indication would be the number of customers who are buying the Propeller in high volumes (>1000) as those are the customers who are probably using it in a commercial product.
There is a lot or forum activity, must most of what I see is coming from hobbyists and newbies looking for help.
My friend's project was featured on Hackaday. He had 864 web hits that day. Can you buy that kind of exposure? You could probably teach the prop through sites like Instructables. I can give you a list of sites but you also need a project. It seems like the same ones are contributing a majority of products to a number of sites and not just Hackaday. I think they have people paid to design, build and sell because that is how they make their money and one of them is a million dollar business.
Thank you, localroger. This is correct - there's also some kind of illusion that large companies will provide more stable supply. During the 24 years Parallax has been in business we only end-of-lifed (EOL) one core product (SX chip). This exception was because we didn't own the intellectual property and the supplier was changing their business model. For our entire business lifespan to date we've received countless EOL notices from some of the large suppliers frequently identified in this discussion forum. The biggest concern we have when choosing a supplier is whether or not they have established their own revenue stream to support the business. Venture-funded companies can be very poor suppliers. They either survive, vaporize, or get bought out. Only one of these options is good for their customers. Parallax pays its bills the day they arrive and is managed conservatively to ensure long-term supply and consistency. This is boring business stuff, but it must accompany the technology sold by a company else they'll develop a poor reputation.
One way you can always find out something about supplier reliability is to ask your purchasing manager to do some research. They can identify situations really quickly.
We here on the forum all know this, but the average design engineer in industry, and especially the pointy-haired bosses he reports to, only know Parallax as a small company primarily focused on the hobby and education market (that is, if they've heard of Parallax at all).
Sal, I understand that as well. Parallax will likely always be a small company (<100 employees), as it's a model that is working well for most of our customers, the staff, and distributors. .
In regards to only serving hobby and education, this is certainly how it appears when you visit our web site and it is mostly reflective of the reality of our business mix (currently an even division among hobby/commercial/educational). Long before we had the educational and hobby focus we served a larger proportion of commercial customers. In the early 90's we produced over 20K PIC tools, PIC emulators, etc. Approximately 95% of the SX's volume have also gone to commercial users.
Hobby customers have a special place in Parallax's heart (and business). This isn't something we want to hide or diminish at all. They are a tremendous contributor to the business and provide most of the enthusiasm and appreciation that we consider our currency. It's also a trait that's deep in our roots, and the reason why our personal time is about making things. All of our technical staff have side projects that use the Propeller (including Chip!).
In May you will see and be part of some commercial evolution. We're in the middle of a six-month project that redesigns a portion of the business exclusively around the Propeller and the commercial customers who use the chip. Hobbyists will continue to benefit from the resources we are applying to commercial customers, and commercial customers will find themselves much more comfortable with the engineering support, appnotes, web site and business focus.
Some things mentioned in your posts above are best addressed with Propeller 2's introduction.
I wish I could spend more time on the forums to provide a Parallax perspective now and then.
Carry on!
Ken Gracey
The same company is currently winding down production of a product they introduced in 1995 for the same reason, it being based on a 20 MHz 80186. There are THOUSANDS of these things in the field, all with end user customized software, and the new product that replaces it is only approximately compatible (similar control language but different physical form factor, different display, different external keyboard interface, and so on). Each one of those will have to be individually revisited when upgrade is necessary.
I look forward to seeing your changes ready for the PropII. I know of no other company so eager to help its customers like Parallax. And I have visited and discussed future products under NDA with many of the big semi manufacturers over the years. I have received much more than this, right here on this forum, without NDAs.
Large semi companys discontinue products regularly, because the volume is not significant to their business models. That leaves the designer to redo their product, even if it can use another chip of the same family.
Many commercial products do not disclose the internals as one of their simple IP protection methods.
That said, a couple of the huge advantages of the prop are:
1. No Interrupts: Scary at first to someone who has never known any difference. Once understood, the concept is so simple and all of a sudden, the code becomes so much simpler/easier.
2. Software configured super-intelligent peripherals: Plainly not understood by most professionals!!! I said super-intelligent, because not only does it do, for example a simple UART, but in its basic form it hides the UART registers. But, we can then add higher level processing functions too, such as protocol adding/stripping, conversion, or whatever. To understand this, take the SD card interface. Here we also have high level function calls hiding the FAT16/32 interface.
Sorry to repeat again, but somehow the prop datasheet MUST SHOW the configurable peripherals in the block diagram, plus a description. We keep hearing the same thing from uninformed people that the prop lacks standard peripherals, and of course this is really untrue. It has many more than almost all micro chips, due to its flexibility. Obviously the prop does not have ethernet or USB (although there is the fore-runner non-compliant code), but then neither do most chips. Are there any chips that can have 15 UARTs??? What about 13 plus SD card??? or 3xVGA???
One last thing... Apple... How did the Apple ][ become popular. It had a hobbyist name - definately not professional. Well, a couple of guys wrote a spreadsheet program called supercal IIRC. We had a $20,000 package that ran on the minis I worked on, as did many other minis and mainframes. When run, they slowed the computers down so much that everyone complained. Supercalc and and Apple ][ cost about $2,500 and ran on the accountants desk and had more features, ran faster and did not interrupt the users. Presto, the Apple micro took off!!! The name did not matter one bit. The fact it was a tiny company did not matter.
jim
I guess he means this thread
Bitwise charachter rotation.
post #5 http://forums.parallax.com/showthread.php?130761-Bitwise-charachter-rotation.&p=989423#post989423
seems to be that professional developers just don't have much time to visit the forum?!
best regards
Stefan
Jim
For the sake of completeness, here is that post:
I'll grant you that interrupts often confound beginning coders and even confuse experienced programmers, but they're not the big bug-a-boo that many make them out to be. All of my ARM designs use interrupts extensively, and properly managed, they are neither hard to understand, write code for, or debug.
Your second point, however, is ridiculous. Intelligent peripherals, as you call them, are far from an exclusive advantage of the Propeller. Anyone can add higher level processing code to extend device drivers for more traditional MCUs to, for example, add a FAT16/32 interface, or a protocol layer to a UART subsystem.